Question for Prof X

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
E-man wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Skrom wrote:
Just so you know, weight training is not going to help or hurt your performance as a drummer. It’s all technique, so don’t even worry about that…train to get bigger so that you can look good drumming without a shirt.

If being big hurt your hand skills, I would be fucked

“And in local news a bodybuilder accidently yanked off his penis while masterbating. Doctors are still unsure of the precise cause but some are speculating he possessed too much functional hand strength and simply lost control.”

F–KING funny

[/quote]

Nah, it wasn’t that he had too much functional hand strength, he lacked proper core stability in the penile region!

I know that this is not a thread about sprinting specifically but there is so much misinformation being generated here that I have to participate in the hijacking.

In response to the comments that have been made:

The necessity of strength training for sprint performance is debatable. Contrary to what most people assume, maximal strength is not a major determinant of sprinting ability.

This is a faulty generalization, if not an outright false claim. Among elite sprinters there have been a few that were incredibly strong relative to their bodymasses, but many are not any stronger than your average serious weight trainee who has been at it for 3 or 4 years, and some don’t even lift weights.

An acquaintance of mine by the name of Ato Boldon, who is the second most prolific sub-10 100m sprinter in history and a 4x olmypic medalist, bench pressed in his prima a little more than 300 lbs. at a weight of 175-180lbs. His squat was less impressive. I would say that he is about aveage among elite sprinters in terms of strength.

This is false with regard to sprinting. Contraction time and frequency are essentially the same in all humans; research has shown that speed of limb movement during sprinting is the same between the fastest and slowest runners. The major difference is how much force can be applied during ground contact.

The ubiquitous cue to “relax” during sprinting is meaningless. Relaxation is incompatible with sprinting.

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

If powerlifting was the key to speed, Ed Coan would’ve won a few olympic medals by now.

[/quote]

Funny, Ed Coan has hit a snatch and clean and jerk US record in the gym, and on video for his weight class…

Hmmm maybe it just looks slow when 1,000+ is on ur back

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I know that this is not a thread about sprinting specifically but there is so much misinformation being generated here that I have to participate in the hijacking.

In response to the comments that have been made:

“Speed and strength work should accompany each other when training for speed.”

The necessity of strength training for sprint performance is debatable. Contrary to popular assumption, maximal strength is not a major determinant of sprinting ability.

The best sprinters in the world are incredibly strong, but speed training multiple times per week.

This is a faulty generalization, if not an outright false claim. Among elite sprinters there have been a few that were incredibly strong relative to their bodymasses, but many are not any stronger than your average serious weight trainee who has been at it for 3 or 4 years, and some don’t even lift weights.

An acquaintance of mine by the name of Ato Boldon, who is the second most prolific sub-10 100m sprinter in history and a 4x olmypic medalist, bench pressed in his prima a little more than 300 lbs. at a weight of 175-180lbs. His squat was less impressive. I would say that he is about aveage among elite sprinters in terms of strength.

High-speed movements are all about how many times you can contract a muscle in a certain period of time. Being able to relax the muscle is critical to be able to do so."

This is false with regard to sprinting. Contraction time and frequency are essentially the same in all humans; research has shown that speed of limb movement during sprinting is the same between the fastest and slowest runners. The major difference is how much force can be applied during ground contact.

Actually, it’s quite true. Go ask a track coach how to run the 100 meter dash. If he doesn’t mention relaxing at maximal speed, he’s not a very good track coach. Being able to relax at maximal speed is a skill that takes practice. How do you practice it? Well… by speed training. Thus, if you neglect speed training, you will have difficulty relaxing your muscles at maximal speeds.

The ubiquitous cue to “relax” during sprinting is meaningless. Relaxation is incompatible with sprinting.
Relaxation is incompatible with sprinting. [/quote]

Hey belligerent,
Very informative post, thank you. I particularly like your focus on relaxation being meaningless. Very often, drummers are encouraged to play relaxed when trying to play fast. I find this very puzzling because in order to get faster, there has to be some effort and perhaps a little strain involved in order to encourage the muscles to work, grow and adapt to playing at faster speeds. While their technique shouldn’t suffer, the amount of effort should not be compromised in order to achieve faster tempos. After all, do you ever hear someone say to a powerlifter, lift relaxed? lol

In a related note , I think the issue of increased bodyweight affecting speed and power negatively myth suffered a setback when Hopkins gained at least twenty pounds and destroyed Tarver, while Tarver lost weight and suffered. Interesting huh?

[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:

In a related note , I think the issue of increased bodyweight affecting speed and power negatively myth suffered a setback when Hopkins gained at least twenty pounds and destroyed Tarver, while Tarver lost weight and suffered. Interesting huh?[/quote]

Very.

[quote]Viking69 wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:

If powerlifting was the key to speed, Ed Coan would’ve won a few olympic medals by now.

Funny, Ed Coan has hit a snatch and clean and jerk US record in the gym, and on video for his weight class…

Hmmm maybe it just looks slow when 1,000+ is on ur back

[/quote]

I meant olympic medals in sprinting. I don’t mean to take anything away from Ed Coan (not like my opinion means anything to him anyway), I was just making the point that strength training and speed training are not exactly the same thing.

Belligerent,

That post would’ve been informative if it wasn’t completely idiotic.

Aren’t you the same guy who created other user names to agree with himself in another thread?

Hopefully you won’t feel the need to do that here…

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Viking69 wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:

If powerlifting was the key to speed, Ed Coan would’ve won a few olympic medals by now.

Funny, Ed Coan has hit a snatch and clean and jerk US record in the gym, and on video for his weight class…

Hmmm maybe it just looks slow when 1,000+ is on ur back

I meant olympic medals in sprinting. I don’t mean to take anything away from Ed Coan (not like my opinion means anything to him anyway), I was just making the point that strength training and speed training are not exactly the same thing.[/quote]

Ah, sorry. I had no idea we were comparing sprinters and Plers… Then my money is on Justin Gatlin.

[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:
Very often, drummers are encouraged to play relaxed when trying to play fast. I find this very puzzling because in order to get faster, there has to be some effort and perhaps a little strain involved in order to encourage the muscles to work, grow and adapt to playing at faster speeds. While their technique shouldn’t suffer, the amount of effort should not be compromised in order to achieve faster tempos. After all, do you ever hear someone say to a powerlifter, lift relaxed? lol[/quote]

Drummers are told to relax, especially when playing fast, because people who aren’t any good will tense up and start trying to force it instead of using the rebound of the drum.

Drumming can’t be compared to lifting.

If you haven’t heard of Moeller technique, you should look it up. There’s a reason that old, fat people can play with better speed, power, and endurance than you.

[quote]Viking69 wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
Viking69 wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:

If powerlifting was the key to speed, Ed Coan would’ve won a few olympic medals by now.

Funny, Ed Coan has hit a snatch and clean and jerk US record in the gym, and on video for his weight class…

Hmmm maybe it just looks slow when 1,000+ is on ur back

I meant olympic medals in sprinting. I don’t mean to take anything away from Ed Coan (not like my opinion means anything to him anyway), I was just making the point that strength training and speed training are not exactly the same thing.

Ah, sorry. I had no idea we were comparing sprinters and Plers… Then my money is on Justin Gatlin.
[/quote]

Haha that would be a good bet. Although I hope for his sake that he won’t try to bench 600 anytime soon…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:

In a related note , I think the issue of increased bodyweight affecting speed and power negatively myth suffered a setback when Hopkins gained at least twenty pounds and destroyed Tarver, while Tarver lost weight and suffered. Interesting huh?

Very.[/quote]

You can not judge an athlete by one performance, Tarver could have just had a bad day, and he did just lose a bunch of weight because he was working on the Rocky movie.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
The ubiquitous cue to “relax” during sprinting is meaningless. Relaxation is incompatible with sprinting.
Relaxation is incompatible with sprinting. [/quote]

You are an idiot. The reason ben johnson was able to start beating Carl Lewis because he was watching video and finally realized that Lewis was able to relax during the races while Ben tensed up too much, restricting him. I could give you a direct quote from Charlie Francis’s “Speed Trap” if you are ignorant enough to argue.

[quote]Skrom wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
Very often, drummers are encouraged to play relaxed when trying to play fast. I find this very puzzling because in order to get faster, there has to be some effort and perhaps a little strain involved in order to encourage the muscles to work, grow and adapt to playing at faster speeds. While their technique shouldn’t suffer, the amount of effort should not be compromised in order to achieve faster tempos. After all, do you ever hear someone say to a powerlifter, lift relaxed? lol

Drummers are told to relax, especially when playing fast, because people who aren’t any good will tense up and start trying to force it instead of using the rebound of the drum.

Drumming can’t be compared to lifting.

If you haven’t heard of Moeller technique, you should look it up. There’s a reason that old, fat people can play with better speed, power, and endurance than you.[/quote]

Hey Skrom,
Whoa, I guess I struck a nerve huh? Take it easy buddy. Even though lifting and drumming are different, the theory behind playing relaxed is often misunderstood by teachers and players who don’t have a background in lifting and mechanics. The jazz world and the extreme metal world are also two completely different genres and require different things from the drummer just like powerlifting and bodybuilding are different. While both require strength, one requires more than the other after a while in order to be successful.
I question whether most jazz drummers would be able to handle double bass runs, blast beats and couple that with competing to be heard over loud amps, vocals and whatever acoustic challenges studios or clubs provide. The approach is completely different and remember, I did mention above that technique, while playing fast should not be compromised. Just like when trying to lift big or gain new PRs, respect to form should always be adhered to in order to prevent injury. Thanks for challenging my points but don’t knock my playing if you haven’t heard it, yet.

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:
You are an idiot. The reason ben johnson was able to start beating Carl Lewis because he was watching video and finally realized that Lewis was able to relax during the races while Ben tensed up too much, restricting him. I could give you a direct quote from Charlie Francis’s “Speed Trap” if you are ignorant enough to argue.[/quote]

I have my own copy of SPEED TRAP, thanks, and I don’t give a shit what Charlie says.

hockeychamp,

Don’t feed the troll…

heh… call me a troll all you want, but you’ve got nothing except a bunch of charlie francis quotes to blindly parrot

[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:
Hey Skrom,
Whoa, I guess I struck a nerve huh? Take it easy buddy. Even though lifting and drumming are different, the theory behind playing relaxed is often misunderstood by teachers and players who don’t have a background in lifting and mechanics. The jazz world and the extreme metal world are also two completely different genres and require different things from the drummer just like powerlifting and bodybuilding are different. While both require strength, one requires more than the other after a while in order to be successful.
I question whether most jazz drummers would be able to handle double bass runs, blast beats and couple that with competing to be heard over loud amps, vocals and whatever acoustic challenges studios or clubs provide. The approach is completely different and remember, I did mention above that technique, while playing fast should not be compromised. Just like when trying to lift big or gain new PRs, respect to form should always be adhered to in order to prevent injury. Thanks for challenging my points but don’t knock my playing if you haven’t heard it, yet. [/quote]

I apologise if I offended you. I am usually blunt, and some people interpret it as harshness. I wasn’t knocking your playing either; I just said that there are plenty of old, fat people who can play with better speed, power, and endurance than you, and that is true. The same applies to me.

I’ll just say this: drumming is drumming, and technique is the same regardless of what style you play. Relaxation and efficiency are always important. If you are concerned with speed, power, and endurance, then it becomes even more important. Here’s a link, at least check out the Moeller video and the heel/toe video:

http://www.drummerworld.com/wishlistdrummers/Derrick_Pope.html

Learning things like that will help your drumming so much more than lifting ever will. Don’t assume that these things are only for jazz or funk players.

Just as a ps:

The worlds fastest/most explosive athletes from 0-15 meters are not sprinters… :stuck_out_tongue:

Hey Skrom,
Thanks for the clarification, I probably misinterpreted your assumption that old fat people could do what I do with their technique, maybe some are faster but I definitely wouldn’t say most lol. Although I like the moeller technique (a lot of videos demonstrate this, a couple that come to mind are jim chapin and joe morello), sometimes the motion can cause too many accents depending on the situation. Everyone is different and a lot of drummers try to find that one “secret” or shortcut rather than relying on hard work and dedication. I prefer to look at drumming from the physical standpoint and the music that I play requires much more stamina and speed than say a faster “bop” tune (although I dig “channel one suite”. And while Buddy Rich was great in his hey day, later videos and books/bios reveal that when he was heavier and older, his playing was definitely not the same than when he was trimmer…same is true for joe morello as well. The physical components of drumming shouldn’t be ignored and while drumming is drumming, there is nothing wrong with taking other dsiciplines and making them work in ways that were previously thought of as having no benefit. The main things I rely on is my playing and practicing hard. The lifting is what makes the playing better too and gives me something else to look forward to as well. Nothing like hitting a new PR ya know? thanks again skrom

[quote]Adamsson wrote:

The worlds fastest/most explosive athletes from 0-15 meters are not sprinters… :stuck_out_tongue: [/quote]

How does anyone know this? Has anyone ever measured and compared the accelerative abilities of elite spritners vs. weightlifters or whoever else? It seems to me that this idea has developed out of sheer speculation.

Not that it’s an entirely idiotic notion, since muscle power is more important during acceleration that during constant speed running. But speculation is still speculation, so I wish people would stop citing this as a known fact.