Quads Without Squats

Off Topic
61

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]DeltaOne wrote:
If your knees hurt just wrap tighter. If you don’t use wraps you’re an idiot.
[/quote]

Why? Genuinely curious.

[/quote]

For anyone who suffers from some kind of joint pain a certain degree of support is necessary for injury prevention, which is what wraps/sleeves are for ( at least that was the original intention). I prefer wraps over sleeves because you can regulate the amount of support required.

Squatting/leg pressing with knee, or any kind of joint pain, to satisfy one’s ego, is the stupidiest thing I ever heard, and it think that persons deserves to be injuried. Sadly this kind of advice is given way to often. Is like saying I should still curl even after I tore my biceps from the bone.

62

[quote]TheRealMcKenzie wrote:
For years, my challenge is to bring up my quads despite the fact that my knees are beaten up.
I squatted for too long through the pain, believing that one couldn’t have impressive quads without squats. Now I know that’s bullshit: a beginner should squat, but if you’re not built for them, go to leg presses before you ruin your hips and knees. I got my biggest quad size with leg presses after ditching the squat. A bodybuilder who wants to stay in shape as long as possible doesn’t need squats.
Insights from BODYBUILDERS please?[/quote]

Actually, my experience has been similar. Leg presses did more for the size than squats. You can pound the shit out of a leg press in ways that cannot be done with squats. Failing on squats can be dangerous, you can get away with it on leg press.

For anything else, the leg press is shit. For strength, or speed or transfer in to other arenas, the leg press won’t do it for you, but for size it’s damn magical.

It’s also a good choice for keeping your waist size down, while growing legs, since it takes you’re core out of it.

Doesn’t the leg press fuck up your knees too, though? I can’t imagine the leg press is kinder to knees.

63

[quote]pat wrote:
Doesn’t the leg press fuck up your knees too, though? I can’t imagine the leg press is kinder to knees. [/quote]

Depends on the mechanics of the apparatus, foot placement, etc.

The ones at my gym hurt my back and knees.

64

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

I see that sarcasm is alive and well in Ontario.

If you read my sentence, that was my point.

I have very long legs proportionate to my torso. On this very site, years ago, I read that you were a pussy if you didn’t squat ATG so I did. My knees are ruined. There is nothing that I accomplished that couldn’t have been accomplished by doing other exercises or by not performing full ROM squats all the time.

You’re 24, I’ve joined my first gym around the time that you were being born. You probably haven’t been lifting long enough to see any wear and tear yet but you most likely will.

Squats are fine for some people but there is usually more than one means to an end. Squats can build decent quads but you don’t have to do squats to have decent quads. [/quote]

Your knees are most likely the ruined because you lacked the appropriate mobility to squat ATG.

Anectdotal evidence is useless, my olympic coach squats ATG and has been for years (age 58). and he has had no knee issues? I never said you have to squat to have decent quads but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder.

65

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

I see that sarcasm is alive and well in Ontario.

If you read my sentence, that was my point.

I have very long legs proportionate to my torso. On this very site, years ago, I read that you were a pussy if you didn’t squat ATG so I did. My knees are ruined. There is nothing that I accomplished that couldn’t have been accomplished by doing other exercises or by not performing full ROM squats all the time.

You’re 24, I’ve joined my first gym around the time that you were being born. You probably haven’t been lifting long enough to see any wear and tear yet but you most likely will.

Squats are fine for some people but there is usually more than one means to an end. Squats can build decent quads but you don’t have to do squats to have decent quads. [/quote]

Your knees are most likely the ruined because you lacked the appropriate mobility to squat ATG.

Anectdotal evidence is useless, my olympic coach squats ATG and has been for years (age 58). and he has had no knee issues? I never said you have to squat to have decent quads but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder.

[/quote]

Did your magic 8 ball tell you that? lol

Good for your coach. To be squatting injury free at 58 is pretty remarkable. You do realize that your statement about your coach was anecdotal, don’t you?

I think if you visited the Over 35 Lifter forum you might get a better overall picture of what years of lifting can do to you and how you can work around certain things and still achieve awesome results. Most people that have been lifting for any decent length of time will be or have worked around some type of injury at some point.

There are more things than just squats to build quads.

66

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

I see that sarcasm is alive and well in Ontario.

If you read my sentence, that was my point.

I have very long legs proportionate to my torso. On this very site, years ago, I read that you were a pussy if you didn’t squat ATG so I did. My knees are ruined. There is nothing that I accomplished that couldn’t have been accomplished by doing other exercises or by not performing full ROM squats all the time.

You’re 24, I’ve joined my first gym around the time that you were being born. You probably haven’t been lifting long enough to see any wear and tear yet but you most likely will.

Squats are fine for some people but there is usually more than one means to an end. Squats can build decent quads but you don’t have to do squats to have decent quads. [/quote]

Your knees are most likely the ruined because you lacked the appropriate mobility to squat ATG.

Anectdotal evidence is useless, my olympic coach squats ATG and has been for years (age 58). and he has had no knee issues? I never said you have to squat to have decent quads but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder.

[/quote]

There are more things than just squats to build quads.

[/quote]

Yep

67

I have always had knee issues with squats, no matter what stance, heel elevation or lack thereof I use.

This goes without mentioning all the back injuries i have had over the years from back squats. To be honest, I think those are due to the fact that I always kept my back in extension rather than neutral position. But oh well.

So i have been following Ben Bruno’s recommendations as far as leg training for the past year or so. Read the articles Bruno, Cressey, Boyle, Contreras and others have put out on the topic of single leg training. My knees and back have never felt better and my legs never and bigger.

68

I always felt that a partial squat with a heavy load may put more pressure on your joints and a below parallel squat would alleviate some pressure as it is not as much in line with the joints. Just my typical bro science though lol.

I don’t squat for hypertrophy and according to the OPs definition I do squat heavy, I find it a very natural movement and the leg press feels uncomfortable, I guess what Im trying to say is find a movement that works for your goals and does not cause considerable and incorrect-able pain.

As far as the loads on your back and what not, I dont agree, if that was the case we as human beings wouldn’t push pull or lift anything if it is accompanied by added pressure, so I feel they are all natural movements.

69

[quote]Grumpig Hunt wrote:
Although I’m not lifting particularly heavy loads (recent PR was only 250x10), squats don’t hurt my knees at all. In fact I only have one patella and have found squats to be one of the best overall rehab exercises.

If squats are hurting your knees as much as OP says, then I think the issue must lie with the form of whoever is doing the squatting; when it comes to guys like Tate and Wendler, you hear about plenty of pec tears and shoulder injuries, but knee issues are never mentioned and these guys move serious weight on an almost daily basis.[/quote]

That’s possible and I congratulate you for it. I even envy you.

But just ask any ex basketball player who has narrow joints and for years used to land hard after every jump he made. Knees are wasted. Leg presses yes, but squatting becomes very difficult (stability issues). That’s only one example. A lot of people who start training at an older age are incapable of squatting in a correct way because of bad life habits (not squatting deep for years).

I agree that guys who are perfectly built to squat will probably never have knee issues, but I know a lot of former strenght athletes (strong man competitors) who used to squat very heavy weights and thought they were perfectly fit for squatting, who now have knee issues.

My point is very simple: I advise all beginners to squat. If I see that they are incapable to perform it correctly, I let them switch to other exercises. Those who do well on squats, I let them do it as long as they have benefits from it. But every trainee I know has come to the point that it’s better to substitute the squat by other movements.

Squat is a great tool to pack on mass fast, but it’s not a holy cow. Everybody is different, goals are different, and squat, as any other exercise, has his drawbacks. For some people the knees, for others the lower back, for others expansion of the waist.

70

[quote]DeltaOne wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]DeltaOne wrote:
If your knees hurt just wrap tighter. If you don’t use wraps you’re an idiot.
[/quote]

Why? Genuinely curious.

[/quote]

For anyone who suffers from some kind of joint pain a certain degree of support is necessary for injury prevention, which is what wraps/sleeves are for ( at least that was the original intention). I prefer wraps over sleeves because you can regulate the amount of support required.

Squatting/leg pressing with knee, or any kind of joint pain, to satisfy one’s ego, is the stupidiest thing I ever heard, and it think that persons deserves to be injuried. Sadly this kind of advice is given way to often. Is like saying I should still curl even after I tore my biceps from the bone.[/quote]

Thanks for replying. Do you think people without joint pain should use knee wraps/sleeves as an injury prevention measure?

Obviously, I think that people shouldn’t do an exercise that causes them pain, though I think pain in squats could mostly be caused by insufficient mobility or poor technique - what do you think?

71

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

I see that sarcasm is alive and well in Ontario.

If you read my sentence, that was my point.

I have very long legs proportionate to my torso. On this very site, years ago, I read that you were a pussy if you didn’t squat ATG so I did. My knees are ruined. There is nothing that I accomplished that couldn’t have been accomplished by doing other exercises or by not performing full ROM squats all the time.

You’re 24, I’ve joined my first gym around the time that you were being born. You probably haven’t been lifting long enough to see any wear and tear yet but you most likely will.

Squats are fine for some people but there is usually more than one means to an end. Squats can build decent quads but you don’t have to do squats to have decent quads. [/quote]

Your knees are most likely the ruined because you lacked the appropriate mobility to squat ATG.

Anectdotal evidence is useless, my olympic coach squats ATG and has been for years (age 58). and he has had no knee issues? I never said you have to squat to have decent quads but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder.

[/quote]

Did your magic 8 ball tell you that? lol

Good for your coach. To be squatting injury free at 58 is pretty remarkable. You do realize that your statement about your coach was anecdotal, don’t you?

I think if you visited the Over 35 Lifter forum you might get a better overall picture of what years of lifting can do to you and how you can work around certain things and still achieve awesome results. Most people that have been lifting for any decent length of time will be or have worked around some type of injury at some point.

There are more things than just squats to build quads.

[/quote]

yes i was mentioning that to prove my point anecdotally you can swing it both ways.

72

The issue isn’t squats. It’s bad squat technique. I bet OP is not squatting below parallel. Or has under developed hamstrings and has trouble activating his glutes. Tight hamstrings could also be an issue. It could also be over developed quads.

If your goal is to just develop quads, then I’m sure that you can get away without doing the squat.

But if you want strong knees, then I suggest some sort of squat rehabilitation program, where you work on making the hamstrings and quads more balanced. Focussing on quads will only making your knee problems bigger.

For people arguing that squats are bad for your knees, read starting strength for an in depth analysis of the mechanics of the squat. Science is superior to anecdote.

73

[quote]Waylander wrote:
The issue isn’t squats. It’s bad squat technique. I bet OP is not squatting below parallel. Or has under developed hamstrings and has trouble activating his glutes. Tight hamstrings could also be an issue. It could also be over developed quads.

If your goal is to just develop quads, then I’m sure that you can get away without doing the squat.

But if you want strong knees, then I suggest some sort of squat rehabilitation program, where you work on making the hamstrings and quads more balanced. Focussing on quads will only making your knee problems bigger.

For people arguing that squats are bad for your knees, read starting strength for an in depth analysis of the mechanics of the squat. Science is superior to anecdote.[/quote]

amen

74

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Doesn’t the leg press fuck up your knees too, though? I can’t imagine the leg press is kinder to knees. [/quote]

Depends on the mechanics of the apparatus, foot placement, etc.

The ones at my gym hurt my back and knees.[/quote]

X2.

Leg presses kill my lower back, because the machine I have just doesn’t lend itself to correct posture. Even using towels or some other support to keep my lower back from rounding just doesn’t do the job. Knees were a problem until I stopped locking them out.

Because of that I prefer to squat, which biomechanically fits my short stubby legs better.

My quads get more bang for the buck anyway from leg extensions, as from squats.

75

What about front squats, Zerchers, hack, goblet, BSS

So OP are you referring to all squats or just the traditional back squat?