Thanks. What is it about doing it that way that you consider it a more optimal mass/strength builder?
I’ve been thinking about picking up some mats like that. My current floor tiles have broken down quite a bit, and I’m not settled enough yet to build a real platform.
Are they these ones? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Envirotile-Cobblestone-Earth-18-in-x-18-in-Rubber-Paver-MT5000637/202302001
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Thanks. What is it about doing it that way that you consider it a more optimal mass/strength builder?
I’ve been thinking about picking up some mats like that. My current floor tiles have broken down quite a bit, and I’m not settled enough yet to build a real platform.
Are they these ones? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Envirotile-Cobblestone-Earth-18-in-x-18-in-Rubber-Paver-MT5000637/202302001 [/quote]
Those look like the right ones. I got mine at Menards, but I imagine they’re the same.
I wrote up about my love on the mat pull somewhat earlier. Here is the repost
[quote]In truth, I do not believe the deadlift to be a strength builder. I think the deadlift is probably the greatest display of strength possible (and to clarify, I am speaking of strength, not power or athleticism), as it requires the entire body to function as a unit, where any weak points will readily be magnified and highlighted. However, in terms of making a trainee stronger, I find it lacking. It is in many cases too taxing of a movement, making recovery difficult and promoting injuries when fatigue sets in, and becomes a difficult movement to control such that attempting to place different emphasis on certain parts of the lift becomes impossible (and hence why, whenever this DOES happen, we deem it as an entirely different exercise, such as the RDL, straight legged deadlift, dimel deadlift, etc). The range of motion on the lift is very long, and one is limited in their strength building ability by where they are weakest in the lift due to the lack of eccentric at the start of the movement, as there is zero momentum and minimal stretch reflex to be recruited, which means that a trainee trying to build their upper back attempting the deadlift must first get past breaking the weight off the floor. In general, I simply do not find it ideal for building size or strength.
A below the knee pull (whether it be mat or block, but not a rack pull, as the plates must be the point of contact rather than the bar) does not possess the same deficiencies as a deadlift from the floor. The shorter ROM means that a trainee does not need to have great flexibility or mobility in order to get into position, which minimizes injury potential and allows one to focus far more on moving heavy weight. On the topic of heavy weight, the shorter ROM also means that far more weight can be moved during this movement, and, when paired with a touch and go style, means a massive overload on the muscles while maintaining a high amount of time under tension. This tends to make the upper back and traps explode while also still building a strong lower back and hamstrings. In my personal experience, I was able to build up to my first 585lb pull by training no lower than a 5 mat pull on heavy deads, with a 20 rep set of floor deads intersected every other week, and feel that the carryover from the below the knee pull to the floor deadlift is very beneficial. A trainee will still learn how to strain with a heavy weight, and realistically, as a matter of perspective, once a trainee is used to handling the massive weights they can manage at such a short ROM, a full ROM deadlift with a lighter weight will feel almost weightless in the hands. It becomes a matter of understanding how much of a percentage to drop when transitioning between the two lifts, but once a trainee has a handle on that, they will move along fine.
In terms of still building leg drive off the floor in the absence of full ROM work, I believe that using the SSB mentioned above will do an excellent job of taking care of that. Louie Simmons said that if he could name the bar, it would be called â??The Deadlift Barâ??, and I think thatâ??s an accurate assessment. [/quote]
Ah, that was on your blog. I recognized it once I started reading it, but didn’t remember where. Thanks again.
No problem. If you want me to expand any on that post, let me know if you have any specifics you want addressed.
Well, after price shopping, I just went and picked up 14 of the same mats from Menards. They’re more solid/durable than I expected.
Your reasoning in that post makes sense to me. My deadlift jumped nearly 100lbs without really training it, mostly from squatting, which suggests that it wasn’t loaded heavy enough through a range I’d really benefit from for building mass. Could be wrong, but that’s my understanding.
Since I have no aspirations to compete in the deadlift, do you think that focusing exclusively on high mat pulls is enough, or would you sprinkle in some floor/deficit deads every few weeks?
My other pressing movements are a standing behind-the-neck press from the ears, and a slight-incline bottoms-up bench from pins. Both of these are workarounds for my shoulders that work, for me. My squat is an olympic-style back squat with raised heels. Chins, weighted chins and curls are the rest.
I think the SSB would really be the fix, but if that’s not possible, some time spent front squatting would probably go a long way. I’ve never one a high bar squat to be able to say if I think it would be able to bridge any gaps, but that said, with no ambition to ever actually compete in deadlifts, I don’t think there is any reason to pull off the floor compared to from an elevation.
I probably missed it in here somewhere, but do you have any thoughts on deficit DL’s or partials from the floor?
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
haha, Paul Carter had a big rant today about touch and go training making you weak, and it made me chuckle, not because I think he’s wrong, or your wrong, because I’ve been around long enought to know everyone is right ( both you guys have big deadlifts) it just made me chuckle because everyone thinks they’re right, and the other guys wrong. Why can’t people see there’s more than one way to skin a cat, and what ever works for you is right ! Better yet, what ever is working for you ‘‘right now’’ is right.
I know it gets confusing for kids, but what I tell my kids when the question comes up, about differing opinion’s, is that i’ve seen kids get really big and strong, on the shitiest programs, because they believed and worked they’re asses off, and I’ve seen kids on optimal programs, that didn’t get results, because of doubt, and lack of effort. Anyway thought you might get a kick out of it, over at lift-run-bang, and as much as I like his blog, I wish more people were more open minded, somtimes, about other possibility’s for getting strong, other than they’re own. I guess that wouldn’t make for a very entertaining blog, if everyone agreed all the time. later
Oh ya, thats it, I’ve changed my mind about starting that deadlifting program 
it can’t possibly work for me[/quote]
I read that also, and thought the same thing. He pushes for paused bench and yet from Nov 10th to Jan 31st, I did exactly 3 paused reps on bench, and they were on Dec 8th, yet I took my comp max from 292lb on Nov 9th to 303lb Feb 1st without “practicing”. But I took my TNG 295x3 to 305x4 in that same time frame, and I should hit 308 in a comp march 1st. All at a bodyweight of 148.8 lb.[/quote]
Meanwhile I’m pushing a 405 paused bench @ a body weight of 198 and I pause basically everything, So you are wrong and I am right!
“Absorb what is useful, Discard what is not, Add what is uniquely your own”
Listen to everyone. Try everything. Keep what works. Get rid of or alter what doesn’t.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
haha, Paul Carter had a big rant today about touch and go training making you weak, and it made me chuckle, not because I think he’s wrong, or your wrong, because I’ve been around long enought to know everyone is right ( both you guys have big deadlifts) it just made me chuckle because everyone thinks they’re right, and the other guys wrong. Why can’t people see there’s more than one way to skin a cat, and what ever works for you is right ! Better yet, what ever is working for you ‘‘right now’’ is right.
I know it gets confusing for kids, but what I tell my kids when the question comes up, about differing opinion’s, is that i’ve seen kids get really big and strong, on the shitiest programs, because they believed and worked they’re asses off, and I’ve seen kids on optimal programs, that didn’t get results, because of doubt, and lack of effort. Anyway thought you might get a kick out of it, over at lift-run-bang, and as much as I like his blog, I wish more people were more open minded, somtimes, about other possibility’s for getting strong, other than they’re own. I guess that wouldn’t make for a very entertaining blog, if everyone agreed all the time. later
Oh ya, thats it, I’ve changed my mind about starting that deadlifting program it can’t possibly work for me[/quote]
I read that also, and thought the same thing. He pushes for paused bench and yet from Nov 10th to Jan 31st, I did exactly 3 paused reps on bench, and they were on Dec 8th, yet I took my comp max from 292lb on Nov 9th to 303lb Feb 1st without “practicing”. But I took my TNG 295x3 to 305x4 in that same time frame, and I should hit 308 in a comp march 1st. All at a bodyweight of 148.8 lb.[/quote]
Meanwhile I’m pushing a 405 paused bench @ a body weight of 198 and I pause basically everything, So you are wrong and I am right!
“Absorb what is useful, Discard what is not, Add what is uniquely your own”
Listen to everyone. Try everything. Keep what works. Get rid of or alter what doesn’t.[/quote]
Nice lift. I hit 308 march 1st paused at 148.8, and hit 350 TnG AND 315 paused last Thursday.
[quote]TheKraken wrote:
I probably missed it in here somewhere, but do you have any thoughts on deficit DL’s or partials from the floor?[/quote]
I have never had much success with deficit deadlifts. In general, I tend to prefer variations of lifts that allow me to lift more, rather than less weight. In the few times I have employed them, my dead did not progress but my back felt in great pain.
By a partial from the floor, do you mean like a block/mat pull, or something else?
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]TheKraken wrote:
I probably missed it in here somewhere, but do you have any thoughts on deficit DL’s or partials from the floor?[/quote]
I have never had much success with deficit deadlifts. In general, I tend to prefer variations of lifts that allow me to lift more, rather than less weight. In the few times I have employed them, my dead did not progress but my back felt in great pain.
By a partial from the floor, do you mean like a block/mat pull, or something else?[/quote]
I meant dl to the knees, pleaee forgive my post dl day dumbassity. I just switched from sumo to conventional, hitting my old sumo pr very quickly by building comfort/confidence through rack pulls (gym doesn’t want a bunch of outside equipment and this is wotking for so far).
I am a noncompetitive lifter whose goals are strength, and the simple joy of lifting heavy things. I am worried that as I get stronger doing rack pulls I’ll decondition the bottom half of the lift.
[quote]TheKraken wrote:
I meant dl to the knees, pleaee forgive my post dl day dumbassity. I just switched from sumo to conventional, hitting my old sumo pr very quickly by building comfort/confidence through rack pulls (gym doesn’t want a bunch of outside equipment and this is wotking for so far).
I am a noncompetitive lifter whose goals are strength, and the simple joy of lifting heavy things. I am worried that as I get stronger doing rack pulls I’ll decondition the bottom half of the lift. [/quote]
I would ask, with your current goals, is being stronger at the bottom half of the deadlift important?
Comically enough, focusing the majority of my heavy efforts from the top down, I tend to be much stronger off the floor versus lockout. There may be something there regarding the theory that, when you train a partial ROM, your body will still strengthen the remainder of the muscles involved (I remember reading that somewhere, no idea where), but I think set-up is a pretty big factor.
However, I think what is really the culprit here is the fact that, for all of my rep work, I focus on drilling from the bottom of the lift until about halfway up, to include all of my pressing and squatting. I never train the deadlift outside of 1 set a week of mat pulls/deadlifts, but I train safety squat bar squats and barbell squats 1 day a week each (so two days a week spent squatting total) with an emphasis on coming out of the hole and only going as high until I can feel my quads trying to take over the lockout, so I imagine that is most likely what is responsible.
I wrote about this a little bit on my blog in an entry titled “Why are you using full range of motion?”, but my current approach to just about every lift is to train the top half as heavy as possible and ROM progress down to the full ROM, while using all of my assistance work to hammer the portion of the ROM not being hit with the heavy work, and essentially meeting in the middle, while still never actually training any one movement at full ROM in a given rep. Seems to be working well so far. I have seen too many people get injured trying to deadlift for high reps/volume to really give it a try myself, but it is something you can experiment with in this style and see how it pans out for you.
Ok, so heres the theory that just popped into my head as I reread you blog post. The partial work at the top of the ROM forces you to align optimally to do the lift and practicing enforced alignment is the key to both getting better and stronger on the lift and doing it all safer.
So for DL assistance you’re squatting with a focus in the hole?
[quote]TheKraken wrote:
Ok, so heres the theory that just popped into my head as I reread you blog post. The partial work at the top of the ROM forces you to align optimally to do the lift and practicing enforced alignment is the key to both getting better and stronger on the lift and doing it all safer.
So for DL assistance you’re squatting with a focus in the hole? [/quote]
You’ve got a good idea there. The partial work is going to be heavier than full ROM work, which means you really have to make sure your mechanics are set up correctly to avoid having the weight control you.
I follow up my heavy deadlift/mat pull set with safety squat bar squats with no lockout, so it’s a lot of time spent coming out of the hole. On my squat days, I use a front squat with a similar approach. I use chains for both movements. I also make sure to train my abs heavy, and use the reverse hyper on both days. I find that all pretty helpful.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]TheKraken wrote:
Ok,heres the theory that just popped into my head as I reread you blog pI The partial work at the top of the ROM forces you to align optimally to do the lift and practicing enforced alignment is the key to both getting better stronger on the lift and doing it all safer.
So for DL assistance you’re squatting with a focus in the hole? [/quote]
You’ve got a good idea there. The partial work is going to be heavier than full ROM work, which means you really have to make sure your mechanics are set up correctly to avoid having the weight control you.
I follow up my heavy deadlift/mat pull set with safety squat bar squats with no lockout, so it’s a lot of time spent coming out of the hole. On my squat days, I use a front squat with a similar approach. I use chains for both movements. I also make sure to train my abs heavy, and use the reverse hyper on both days. I find that all pretty helpful.
[/quote]
Like others have said, you dont have momentum, and I noticed that I jam myself into position and theres a sweet spot where I feel stronger, so thats where I start the lift. That alignment is really apparent to me doing partial squats. I started sets from the bottom, and the weight really flew up. It helped me confirm that I favor one leg heavily squatting, and start correcting it.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]TheKraken wrote:
Ok,heres the theory that just popped into my head as I reread you blog pI The partial work at the top of the ROM forces you to align optimally to do the lift and practicing enforced alignment is the key to both getting better stronger on the lift and doing it all safer.
So for DL assistance you’re squatting with a focus in the hole? [/quote]
You’ve got a good idea there. The partial work is going to be heavier than full ROM work, which means you really have to make sure your mechanics are set up correctly to avoid having the weight control you.
I follow up my heavy deadlift/mat pull set with safety squat bar squats with no lockout, so it’s a lot of time spent coming out of the hole. On my squat days, I use a front squat with a similar approach. I use chains for both movements. I also make sure to train my abs heavy, and use the reverse hyper on both days. I find that all pretty helpful.
[/quote]
Like others have said, you dont have momentum, and I noticed that I jam myself into position and theres a sweet spot where I feel stronger, so thats where I start the lift. That alignment is really apparent to me doing partial squats. I started sets from the bottom, and the weight really flew up. It helped me confirm that I favor one leg heavily squatting, and start correcting it.
[quote]TheKraken wrote:
Like others have said, you dont have momentum, and I noticed that I jam myself into position and theres a sweet spot where I feel stronger, so thats where I start the lift. That alignment is really apparent to me doing partial squats. I started sets from the bottom, and the weight really flew up. It helped me confirm that I favor one leg heavily squatting, and start correcting it. [/quote]
Awesome. It’s always good to find out even more uses/benefits of an approach.
So… COC grippers. Where to start with those? Sport, Trainer, 0.5, 1?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
So… COC grippers. Where to start with those? Sport, Trainer, 0.5, 1?[/quote]
I think everyone should start with the trainer and the 1. The trainer isn’t too tough out of the box, and can be used to work up to the 1, and for the rest of your career will be very useful as a warm-up gripper. The 1 is great for bridging the gap to the 2, but after that, I didn’t have much use for it.
I can’t imagine needing to start with the sport if you have any sort of weight training background, unless you are coming back from an injury. I think at that point, you could just do a sporting good store gripper.
Managed to add 15lbs to my deadlift in 2 months for a 635x4 touch and go set
650 is set up for my next cycle. See where I can go from there.