Punching Power and Then Some

Training
61

hey just wanted to comment on this thread. Being a noob here, I just have to say I an inpressed and looking forward to seeing more from intelligent posters such as Robert, Irish, and Humble. You guys are great,with amazing insight! Not a suck up, just new to the T-Nation scene, and feel kudo’s are deserved where they are earned.

Not much I can add that has already been said, I do agree that systema has some significant ideas that any fighrer could use and incorperate into thier style. As has been said through the ages, keep what works for you, and throw out what doesnt. Adapt to what is adaptable, and forgot what put you in situations you wish to forget. My 2 cents.

Backyard, props for posting this thread and speaking your mind! Not many people seem to do that nowadays, especially what not with all the internet trolls and such. Like what has been said before, conditioning the weakest links will improve the strength of the chain as a whole. In terms of physical ability, after myself recovering from a few injuries, I noticed as I regained strength in my atheltic performance, the power in my techniques where increased. If you are performing proper technique, using your weight properly, I would believe if you could only preform this technique to a maximum velocity, it is because you are only capable of moving your mass in such a fasion through said motion. With that being said, increased strength in just body control alone, I would feel, from personal experience at least, that one would be able to move thier body through the motion faster, if one has more strength and control over thier own mass. I personally enjoy pull/chin-ups, pushups, dips, L/V-Seats, 1 Leg BW-Squats, and other core training. Not sure if that can provide any sort of assistance to the answers you look for, but stay motivated on keeping fit, and a positive mindset will follow! positive thinking will allow anything to nearly ‘instantly’ improve! happy training guys.

62

I have developed a fairly savage punch (all of them) like everyone here has mentioned there is no better way to gain power in a punch than by punching, but you want to punch with proper technique. I will give no better description of that than Jack Dempsey does in “Explosive Punching and aggressive defense” assuming you know all about the basics like the falling step, the line of power, that you should be hitting with the knuckle next to the pinky knuckle, than there are still some other ways to develop a punch.

Outside of the heavy bag there is other exercises that will greatly increase how much kinetic energy you’re blasting into a target with. One of the best in my experience is sledge hammer/maul work. Splitting through a few cords of large stumps of hard-wood with a maul OR using a sledge hammer with a 20pound vest to smash something for hours seriously builds up everything involved in hitting something with force. outside of that you want your legs, back and core to be freakishly strong a variety of medicine ball workouts directed to the abs, sprinting, biking, more ab-work (at least 1 day a week given over to nothing but abs.)

On top of this a strength training program will work wonders, esp the posterior chain where you are drawing a lot of that power from. I know many boxers say weight training isn’t useful, but it is. deadlifts and squats and etc may not be sports specific but they do built power and strength that in conjunction with sports specific movements will increase punching authority.

Most importantly you want to shadow box all the time, the power in a punch is often-times from how well you are kinetically linking that energy, you could be the strongest most powerful person on earth, but if you are a sloppy puncher, you are still losing much of the potential blow.

Read Dempsey’s book it’s a wealth of information, outside of that, using some old-time training routine’s doesn’t hurt either. Run down to the beach, find a big rock and pick that thing above your head and throw it again and again. Rocky Marciano style.

edit I would also say that grip-strength and sledge hammer levering to improve the strength of the wrists will also give you surprising turn-over in boxing.

63

Pure punching power is usually highly correlated to your standing long jump.Or throwing of a medicine ball.

Also,people over-emphasize power of the single punch in combat sports/fights.Punching is not an shot put.Its like firing of Uzi.Quick repetitive punches thrown from different angles and distances at oportunistic moments while moving,attacking,defending and counterattacking and being hit hard at the same time.
One thing for sure in a fight is that your are going to miss.If you throw 10 punches,you ll miss some,other punches are gonna hit arms blocking or be ineffective.maybe 1 or 2 of those punches are gonna hit what you aimed for and be of any real effect.
What will happen if you attempt to throw a maximum power punch and put your bodyweight behind against someone that can really fight AND MISS?

64

One method I used very effectively to increase power in my punches,kicks,elbow and knee strikes is this.

Lets say,you want to make your jab harder.You throw 10 jabs as fast as possible.Focus is on speed.Then you rest few seconds and then you throw 3 single jabs as hard as you can. Thats one set. You repeat that for 7-8 times.
If you put everything into it,each set your single jabs should be harder.
You finish still fresh,so next session you start at higher level and finish at even higher jabing power.

65

Another thing about punching that is crucial is the target.

If you are hitting the head,your punches should be more speed ,less power,coz head can be moved faster then torso and because knockout and damage of the head depends more on accuracy and angles ( head rotation after connecting with the jaw under effective angle,nose breaking,blinking reflex,etc.) then sheer force of punch (follow-though,bodyweight behind the punch).

Torso is slower to move out of the way of the punch,so you should use more power than speed to hit.And,more importantly,for your punches to be effective,you should hit torso very hard ( liver knock.out,break the rib,knock air out,etc.)
You also make punches and other strikes to the torso more destructive if you hit horizontaly.For example,if you hit under the ribs,direction of your punch should be UP not IN.Hard to explain in words.

66

Skelac (and maybe others, I didn’t read the whole thread) makes a good point - punching power is different from punch damage. Target selection and strike direction can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of your punch, regardless of the power behind it. For example, punching someone straight on in the shoulder with your strong hand does far less damage than a palm heel hook to the liver, even though the straight right technically had more “power.”

67

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Skelac (and maybe others, I didn’t read the whole thread) makes a good point - punching power is different from punch damage. Target selection and strike direction can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of your punch, regardless of the power behind it. For example, punching someone straight on in the shoulder with your strong hand does far less damage than a palm heel hook to the liver, even though the straight right technically had more “power.” [/quote]

Also,some fighters learn to ride a punch-meaning they learn to absorb the punch.But a less powerful punch thrown unexpectedly and accurately with good timing can take a figher out.

68

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Skelac (and maybe others, I didn’t read the whole thread) makes a good point - punching power is different from punch damage. Target selection and strike direction can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of your punch, regardless of the power behind it. For example, punching someone straight on in the shoulder with your strong hand does far less damage than a palm heel hook to the liver, even though the straight right technically had more “power.” [/quote]

Also,some fighters learn to ride a punch-meaning they learn to absorb the punch.But a less powerful punch thrown unexpectedly and accurately with good timing can take a figher out.[/quote]

Agreed. It’s the punch you don’t see that will knock you out.

69

It’s also how the other guy is moving. Always win the foot race

70

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
One method I used very effectively to increase power in my punches,kicks,elbow and knee strikes is this.

Lets say,you want to make your jab harder.You throw 10 jabs as fast as possible.Focus is on speed.Then you rest few seconds and then you throw 3 single jabs as hard as you can. Thats one set. You repeat that for 7-8 times.
If you put everything into it,each set your single jabs should be harder.
You finish still fresh,so next session you start at higher level and finish at even higher jabing power. [/quote]

That could work, but first you’ve gotta know how to actually generate maximal power with a linear strike in the first place. Most people that I’ve trained make the mistake of thinking that you’ve gotta use more muscle/tension when you tell them to hit as hard as they can. This is actually completely backwards and not only robs them of power, but also prematurely tires them out. The only real difference between a “fast jab” and a “hard jab” should be the degree of follow through/commitment, and the degree to which one taps into their power sources.

71

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Skelac (and maybe others, I didn’t read the whole thread) makes a good point - punching power is different from punch damage. Target selection and strike direction can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of your punch, regardless of the power behind it. For example, punching someone straight on in the shoulder with your strong hand does far less damage than a palm heel hook to the liver, even though the straight right technically had more “power.” [/quote]

Well, yes and no. If you throw a full power punch at the wrong time it’ll probably wind up missing or hitting something other than your intended target; which will result in less damage. But, if you throw it at the right time it will produce the most amount of damage possible. It’s all a matter of knowing when to throw what type of punch.

72

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
I have developed a fairly savage punch (all of them) like everyone here has mentioned there is no better way to gain power in a punch than by punching, but you want to punch with proper technique. I will give no better description of that than Jack Dempsey does in “Explosive Punching and aggressive defense” assuming you know all about the basics like the falling step, the line of power, that you should be hitting with the knuckle next to the pinky knuckle, than there are still some other ways to develop a punch.
[/quote]

Where you make contact on the fist is debatable. I’ve heard very knowledgeably striking coaches say to hit with the first two knuckles, the second and third knuckles, the bottom three knuckles, and all 4 knuckles. The alignment of the fist will somewhat change this (for instance a vertical fist punch will almost always use the second and third knuckles or the bottom three knuckles, while the horizontal fist can use any of the above combinations) but there is still variation and it’s about finding what works best for the individual.

One of the black belts in my system is also an emergency room nurse and he has said that he has seen his share of people come in with boxing fractures from fights (his hospital is in a rough neighborhood), but he’s never seen anyone come in with a broken pointer or middle metacarpal. Partly for that reason and partly because I was taught to do so by my instructor (who has been in countless real fights and hits like a freight train) I choose to hit with the first two knuckles when I throw horizontal fist strikes.

73

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
I have developed a fairly savage punch (all of them) like everyone here has mentioned there is no better way to gain power in a punch than by punching, but you want to punch with proper technique. I will give no better description of that than Jack Dempsey does in “Explosive Punching and aggressive defense” assuming you know all about the basics like the falling step, the line of power, that you should be hitting with the knuckle next to the pinky knuckle, than there are still some other ways to develop a punch.
[/quote]

Where you make contact on the fist is debatable. I’ve heard very knowledgeably striking coaches say to hit with the first two knuckles, the second and third knuckles, the bottom three knuckles, and all 4 knuckles. The alignment of the fist will somewhat change this (for instance a vertical fist punch will almost always use the second and third knuckles or the bottom three knuckles, while the horizontal fist can use any of the above combinations) but there is still variation and it’s about finding what works best for the individual.

One of the black belts in my system is also an emergency room nurse and he has said that he has seen his share of people come in with boxing fractures from fights (his hospital is in a rough neighborhood), but he’s never seen anyone come in with a broken pointer or middle metacarpal. Partly for that reason and partly because I was taught to do so by my instructor (who has been in countless real fights and hits like a freight train) I choose to hit with the first two knuckles when I throw horizontal fist strikes.[/quote]

My 2 cents, get the knuckle of your middle finger on the target. If it has company from the index or ring and small finger knuckles than great. I have seen impressive displays using all the configurations you mentioned, but some pretty bad failures when landing only the ring and/or pinky knuckles or using the “flat of the fist” and hitting with the phalangeal/finger instead of the knuckles.

Side question for Sento; doesn’t Joe Lewis recommend Dempsey’s “3 knuckle landing”?

Regards,

Robert A

74

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
I have developed a fairly savage punch (all of them) like everyone here has mentioned there is no better way to gain power in a punch than by punching, but you want to punch with proper technique. I will give no better description of that than Jack Dempsey does in “Explosive Punching and aggressive defense” assuming you know all about the basics like the falling step, the line of power, that you should be hitting with the knuckle next to the pinky knuckle, than there are still some other ways to develop a punch.
[/quote]

Where you make contact on the fist is debatable. I’ve heard very knowledgeably striking coaches say to hit with the first two knuckles, the second and third knuckles, the bottom three knuckles, and all 4 knuckles. The alignment of the fist will somewhat change this (for instance a vertical fist punch will almost always use the second and third knuckles or the bottom three knuckles, while the horizontal fist can use any of the above combinations) but there is still variation and it’s about finding what works best for the individual.

One of the black belts in my system is also an emergency room nurse and he has said that he has seen his share of people come in with boxing fractures from fights (his hospital is in a rough neighborhood), but he’s never seen anyone come in with a broken pointer or middle metacarpal. Partly for that reason and partly because I was taught to do so by my instructor (who has been in countless real fights and hits like a freight train) I choose to hit with the first two knuckles when I throw horizontal fist strikes.[/quote]

Good post.

I strongly believe in conditioning your hands to sustain hard impact.I a fight you are gonna connect with ribs,elbows,jaws…all the bone parts of the body,so hardening your fist by lots of very heavy bag,hand grippers,push ups on fingertips and other stuff you develop a strong,tough fist.That way,fighter will also hit HARDER in training and in a fight,coz I believe people dont hit harder as they can coz they subconsciously fear fist pain & injury.

75

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
I have developed a fairly savage punch (all of them) like everyone here has mentioned there is no better way to gain power in a punch than by punching, but you want to punch with proper technique. I will give no better description of that than Jack Dempsey does in “Explosive Punching and aggressive defense” assuming you know all about the basics like the falling step, the line of power, that you should be hitting with the knuckle next to the pinky knuckle, than there are still some other ways to develop a punch.
[/quote]

Where you make contact on the fist is debatable. I’ve heard very knowledgeably striking coaches say to hit with the first two knuckles, the second and third knuckles, the bottom three knuckles, and all 4 knuckles. The alignment of the fist will somewhat change this (for instance a vertical fist punch will almost always use the second and third knuckles or the bottom three knuckles, while the horizontal fist can use any of the above combinations) but there is still variation and it’s about finding what works best for the individual.

One of the black belts in my system is also an emergency room nurse and he has said that he has seen his share of people come in with boxing fractures from fights (his hospital is in a rough neighborhood), but he’s never seen anyone come in with a broken pointer or middle metacarpal. Partly for that reason and partly because I was taught to do so by my instructor (who has been in countless real fights and hits like a freight train) I choose to hit with the first two knuckles when I throw horizontal fist strikes.[/quote]

My 2 cents, get the knuckle of your middle finger on the target. If it has company from the index or ring and small finger knuckles than great. I have seen impressive displays using all the configurations you mentioned, but some pretty bad failures when landing only the ring and/or pinky knuckles or using the “flat of the fist” and hitting with the phalangeal/finger instead of the knuckles.
[/quote}

Agreed.

[quote]
Side question for Sento; doesn’t Joe Lewis recommend Dempsey’s “3 knuckle landing”?

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Yes, I’ve heard him recommend that before. He argues that only the middle and ring knuckles can optimally line up with the bones of the forearm at impact. He also has boxing lineage to Dempsey so it’s not surprising that he shares the same views. But, just like he says when it comes to hooking, as long as it’s effective, you feel it works well for you, and you don’t hurt you hand, then keep doing it.

I was actually talking about Walt and Charlie Lysak who grew up getting into countless real fights. Charlie was my primary instructor for the first part of my training in my current system and advocated using the first two knuckles. I know for a fact that he has used this configuration to devastating effect on many occasions, so it’s not just theory he was teaching us. Once I heard the colloboration from my nurse friend/training partner, I became convinced that this was the safest knuckle configuration for bareknuckle striking.

But again, like Sensei Lewis says, if it works for you and you don’t get hurt doing it, and you believe in it, keep doing it.

76

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
I have developed a fairly savage punch (all of them) like everyone here has mentioned there is no better way to gain power in a punch than by punching, but you want to punch with proper technique. I will give no better description of that than Jack Dempsey does in “Explosive Punching and aggressive defense” assuming you know all about the basics like the falling step, the line of power, that you should be hitting with the knuckle next to the pinky knuckle, than there are still some other ways to develop a punch.
[/quote]

Where you make contact on the fist is debatable. I’ve heard very knowledgeably striking coaches say to hit with the first two knuckles, the second and third knuckles, the bottom three knuckles, and all 4 knuckles. The alignment of the fist will somewhat change this (for instance a vertical fist punch will almost always use the second and third knuckles or the bottom three knuckles, while the horizontal fist can use any of the above combinations) but there is still variation and it’s about finding what works best for the individual.

One of the black belts in my system is also an emergency room nurse and he has said that he has seen his share of people come in with boxing fractures from fights (his hospital is in a rough neighborhood), but he’s never seen anyone come in with a broken pointer or middle metacarpal. Partly for that reason and partly because I was taught to do so by my instructor (who has been in countless real fights and hits like a freight train) I choose to hit with the first two knuckles when I throw horizontal fist strikes.[/quote]

Good post.

I strongly believe in conditioning your hands to sustain hard impact.I a fight you are gonna connect with ribs,elbows,jaws…all the bone parts of the body,so hardening your fist by lots of very heavy bag,hand grippers,push ups on fingertips and other stuff you develop a strong,tough fist.That way,fighter will also hit HARDER in training and in a fight,coz I believe people dont hit harder as they can coz they subconsciously fear fist pain & injury.
[/quote]

Fist conditioning is a great practice to get into, but like other types of body conditioning, more isn’t always better. The body needs time to adapt to new stresses and it’s absolutely possible to go too far too fast and either injure yourself, or sacrifice short term benefits for long term consequences. So anyone reading this who wants to get into this practice should tread slowly and gradually work your way up into hitting harder targets.

77

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Skelac (and maybe others, I didn’t read the whole thread) makes a good point - punching power is different from punch damage. Target selection and strike direction can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of your punch, regardless of the power behind it. For example, punching someone straight on in the shoulder with your strong hand does far less damage than a palm heel hook to the liver, even though the straight right technically had more “power.” [/quote]

Well, yes and no. If you throw a full power punch at the wrong time it’ll probably wind up missing or hitting something other than your intended target; which will result in less damage. But, if you throw it at the right time it will produce the most amount of damage possible. It’s all a matter of knowing when to throw what type of punch. [/quote]

Oh, you definitely the the best effect from a full power punch thrown to a good target, but my point was that sometimes the less powerful punch can be more effective because of where that force is delivered.

78

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Skelac (and maybe others, I didn’t read the whole thread) makes a good point - punching power is different from punch damage. Target selection and strike direction can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of your punch, regardless of the power behind it. For example, punching someone straight on in the shoulder with your strong hand does far less damage than a palm heel hook to the liver, even though the straight right technically had more “power.” [/quote]

Well, yes and no. If you throw a full power punch at the wrong time it’ll probably wind up missing or hitting something other than your intended target; which will result in less damage. But, if you throw it at the right time it will produce the most amount of damage possible. It’s all a matter of knowing when to throw what type of punch. [/quote]

Oh, you definitely the the best effect from a full power punch thrown to a good target, but my point was that sometimes the less powerful punch can be more effective because of where that force is delivered. [/quote]

Absolutely. Also, like Sugar Ray Robinson always said (and someone quoted in this thread), it’s often times the punch you don’t see coming that really hurts you as you aren’t mentally or physically prepared for it (don’t exhale or brace/roll in time for impact).

79

This thread may be dead but i thought I’d mention that mastering the front body lever and its variation made me hit a lot harder. I also think that relaxation increases speed quite a bit but it’s important to connect with a solid frame.

Also, condition your fists - specifically your metatarsals. It takes a while (years) but it makes your mitts harder and literally heavier. My favorites are rapping the first two head on with a wooden rod and hitting concrete.

80

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Absolutely. Also, like Sugar Ray Robinson always said (and someone quoted in this thread), it’s often times the punch you don’t see coming that really hurts you as you aren’t mentally or physically prepared for it (don’t exhale or brace/roll in time for impact).[/quote]

A good example of this is Ortiz/Mayweather.

The 3-2 that May hit him with is the same thing he’s hit other fighters with for round upon round, but the fact that Ortiz wasn’t paying attention led to a pretty rough ko.