Pulse Feast / LeanGains Principles

Training
41

[quote]Roygion wrote:

[quote]TomasK wrote:

[quote]Roygion wrote:
Who here is doing the LEANGAIN’S approach to IF, and which version of it are you doing?[/quote]

Im using the LEANGAIN’S approach for 2 months now.
2pm - 1.meal 25% of total intake
4pm - Oly training
6pm - 2.meal 50% of total intake, the biggest of the day
10pm - 3.meal 25% of total intake, sometimes just a snack, something small

on non training days I do a 18/6 or 20/4 IF
fat is going down, strength is going up.
[/quote]

Thanks, Tomas. That is something like I’d consider doing. I am also considering fasted training (strength training) but am concerned about performing the big lifts with no food having been eaten in the past 16 hours. And am not sure it is really better than having, say, one meal 2 hours prior, as you are doing. So I am weighing the theoretical advantages of fasted strength training vs. having that one meal prior (but after the 16h fast).

Do you do anything peri-workout with this IF approach?

Just beginning to try it and I am getting ravenous as I near the 16 hour mark, so that concerns me. Perhaps this is something that just takes getting used to. I do like the enhanced mental alertness, though, and less bloating…

Who here does fasted strength training (nothing except for some BCAA pre-workout)?
[/quote]

I too am getting ready to begin this diet and will be training before the first meal. I will definitely be using a blend of BCAA/EAA/Glutamine/Creatine/Taurine. Basically the modified warrior diet BCAA protocol just once before/into training.

Have a friend that is using this protocol while doing DC training and he is still beating his log book and the fat is coming off nicely. Strength is not and issue at all and dude weighs more now than he did 2 months ago when he started it.

42

[quote]Roygion wrote:
Guys,

Who is the lifter in this video? Is this Martin Berkhan of Leangains?

Some seem to think it is him: Anorexic deadlifts 600 x 3

I’ve never seen anything except closeups of his upper body so I can’t tell if this is him.[/quote]

It is.

175 kg x 4 squat - YouTube That too.

43

[quote]Amonero wrote:
It is.[/quote]

Thanks, Amonero, for the confirmation. Interesting. Martin appears slimmer overall than I would have imagined from seeing his upper body closeups–really, a tall, lean guy–very evident in the deadlift video. This is instructional regarding the primacy of genetics. Though he is neurally efficient, and quite strong (exceptionally well-suited to deadlift, due to structural/leverage advantages), it seems his legs substantially lag his upper body development. So, I’m guessing this is not a training flaw, and obviously not a dietary one, but a genetic predisposition.

Tall guys do seem to have a rougher go of it. I know his overall training volume is low by the standards of this board, but it has clearly worked well enough on his upper body. I wonder what CT would suggest to him if he wanted to try and improve his legs (rep ranges, volume, etc)? Or, if it is really about genetics, maybe this is as good as it gets, which improvement was considerable from his (yet thinner) modeling days.

44

He trains extremely low volume, I imagine that if he were to increase the workload and up his calories he’d fill out quite alot. Seems to favour the lean and borderline scrawny look though. you will notice that in the pics he has up he uses poses that favour a lean, thin physique - don’t spread out, focus on your strong points, and bring everything together towards the middle

45

[quote]Amonero wrote:
He trains extremely low volume, I imagine that if he were to increase the workload and up his calories he’d fill out quite alot. Seems to favour the lean and borderline scrawny look though. you will notice that in the pics he has up he uses poses that favour a lean, thin physique - don’t spread out, focus on your strong points, and bring everything together towards the middle[/quote]

Good points. Of course, calories are king, as you imply. If he increases calories, his bodyfat also increases, and that ripped look flattens out some. Has been forever thus for legions of guys.

And if looking at Martin’s skeletal structure, it would take many calories to flesh out his legs, and that would compromise the ripped look yet more. That said, his training volume seems enough for his upper body, no? Now, maybe his legs might benefit from more work, but I’m not sure it would matter a lot.

While I dislike the bulking approaches of some authorities, but it is called bodyBUILDING. So I do question why some of the guys in his before/after pics undertake these diets, though. I mean, a guy weighing in the 130s, and who is not fat, need not be in the 120s just to look ripped.

Finally, I wonder if the ‘magic’ in IF is really about calorie reduction that tends to occur with the smaller feeding window. I do not think there would be much difference on IF (fat loss) if calories were stringently held constant. I do like it due to convenience but that has nothing to do with bodycomp if calories are held constant.

46

I agree whole-heartedly. If you’re not eating 16 hours of the day, that eliminates any possibility of taking in extra calories like ‘I’ll just have ONE’ or ’ a handful of nuts doesn’t count, nuts are good anyway…so is chockolate.’

Like you say, convenience is big as well, especially for weekend warriors who have been thinking they have to eat every 2-3 hours or die, when that really isn’t necessary for most other than the truly dedicated who are pushing their weight ever upwards.

For the hawt abz and gunz-crowd, IF is a godsend I think, easily getting them from 130 to 120 and being ripped. If that is their goal, good for them. I must say I enjoy eating like that, with the bigger, more filling meals and more flexibility with meal frequency. I stumbled upon it during a cut last year, where my schedule made it so that I only had 2 meals a day, and peri-workout nutrition. Worked like a charm, although I did lose alot of strength from too much cardio and too little food.

Another point is, if you’re eyeballing 6 meals a day, the margin of error becomes alot larger than if you’re eyeballing 2-3.

265 kg x 3 - YouTube Here you can see a bit more.

47

Yeah…Here again, he seems basically just a tall, fit, lean guy. I disagree strongly with the ‘anorexic’ mention from that other board but he does look quite different here than with the upper body only, shirtless shots. To make him ‘bigger’ would entail a lot more calories with his height, and a reduction of that ripped state (not to mention possibly less healthy if lots of bulk were added). Clearly a trade he does not want.

And he has perfect anthropometry for deadlifting. There have been many built like this, and thinner, who were great deadlifters. A classic case, of form (right bone leverages) suited for this function.

And yeah, I think the bodycomp issue is not about IF per se, but really one of total calories consumed. Plus subtracting some high-glycemic calories from one’s diet (but that fits into many approaches). People have gotten ripped for ages without ever using IF.

So at day’s end the issue is one of eating convenience. I like it very much for that, though I am older and not as hungry in the morning as I once was. And as you say, IF may better enable fewer calories to be consumed (so bodyweight drops secondarily).

48

Some good talk going on in here.

49

For those of you that are using the leangains protocols, how did you determine your kcals? Did you use your current BW or did you use a target LBM? Just curious b/c if I use current BW +/- 20% on the lifting/off days then I am at 3700/2550 kcals respectively. But if I am targeting a LBM of 193 at 8% BF then the kcals are much different of course. Just wondering…

50

[quote]Mateus wrote:
For those of you that are using the leangains protocols, how did you determine your kcals? Did you use your current BW or did you use a target LBM? Just curious b/c if I use current BW +/- 20% on the lifting/off days then I am at 3700/2550 kcals respectively. But if I am targeting a LBM of 193 at 8% BF then the kcals are much different of course. Just wondering…[/quote]

If it were me, I’d use bodyweight, as that is simpler and less prone to error, in my view.

I have been using a 16 hour fast for about 10 days. I eat one meal at Noon, then train about 2 hours later; then I eat 2 more meals, with the last at 8PM. I use peri-workout nutrition beginning 15mins before my workout (BCAAs pre and during) and Whey protein post.

The first two days I had hunger pangs as the fast endured. Now, they are gone.

I eat a similar meal most days so I was able to keep my calories the same. Consequently, my weight has remained about the same. I eat a bit more on workout days, usually in more carbs, but also more protein post w/o. Otherwise, no difference.

I strongly suspect that if calories are held constant, bodyweight and bodycomp will be stable for most folks, and that any fat loss is principally due to eating fewer calories, whether intentionally or not.

However, I do find this way of eating very convenient, and enjoy a non-sluggish feeling through the morning.

51

[quote]Roygion wrote:

[quote]Mateus wrote:
For those of you that are using the leangains protocols, how did you determine your kcals? Did you use your current BW or did you use a target LBM? Just curious b/c if I use current BW +/- 20% on the lifting/off days then I am at 3700/2550 kcals respectively. But if I am targeting a LBM of 193 at 8% BF then the kcals are much different of course. Just wondering…[/quote]

If it were me, I’d use bodyweight, as that is simpler and less prone to error, in my view.

I have been using a 16 hour fast for about 10 days. I eat one meal at Noon, then train about 2 hours later; then I eat 2 more meals, with the last at 8PM. I use peri-workout nutrition beginning 15mins before my workout (BCAAs pre and during) and Whey protein post.

The first two days I had hunger pangs as the fast endured. Now, they are gone.

I eat a similar meal most days so I was able to keep my calories the same. Consequently, my weight has remained about the same. I eat a bit more on workout days, usually in more carbs, but also more protein post w/o. Otherwise, no difference.

I strongly suspect that if calories are held constant, bodyweight and bodycomp will be stable for most folks, and that any fat loss is principally due to eating fewer calories, whether intentionally or not.

However, I do find this way of eating very convenient, and enjoy a non-sluggish feeling through the morning.

[/quote]

So you are not doing the +20% on workout days and -20% on rest days?

52

[quote]Mateus wrote:
So you are not doing the +20% on workout days and -20% on rest days? [/quote]

Nothing exact but I do eat more calories (in carbs and protein) on workout days–mostly contained in the first meal post workout.

53

Anyone try doing the MAG-10 pulses during the 16hr fast, then eating 2 or 3 meals and training normally during the 8hr window of the LeanGain prinicples? It seems like the pulse feast is a souped up version of LeanGains.

So:
Fast (kind of) 16 hours from 8pm to 12noon with pulses at 8am and 12noon

Eat from 12-8pm:
So:
Train at 3pm
Eat at 4pm (biggest meal) and 8pm

54

[quote]fnf wrote:
Anyone try doing the MAG-10 pulses during the 16hr fast, then eating 2 or 3 meals and training normally during the 8hr window of the LeanGain prinicples? It seems like the pulse feast is a souped up version of LeanGains.

So:
Fast (kind of) 16 hours from 8pm to 12noon with pulses at 8am and 12noon

Eat from 12-8pm:
So:
Train at 3pm
Eat at 4pm (biggest meal) and 8pm[/quote]

Why even have a “pulse” at 8 am? Because you’re worried that you’re “catabolic” in the morning and eating away muscle?

I think that point has been largely overblown. You’re not in an active state–in fact, you’ve just woken up–so there’s no reason your body wouldn’t just burn fat for fuel. You would burn muscle IF you were engaged in activity that required a fuel source like glycogen or aminos from muscle tissue. Make sense?

I am almost positive that, unless you’re active or just coming off a good workout, your body will be burning fat for fuel.

I would just have a “pulse” at the start of your workout and another either halfway through or toward the end (it shouldn’t matter which). Then, start your feeding window with your largest and high carb meal as the first one eaten PWO.

From rising to workout, you should consume nothing. I think Martin recommends an “allowance” of about 50 calories or less, to make room for those who like a little cream with their coffee.

You CAN train fasted as long as there is little to no AEROBIC component (i.e. no circuit style or “metabolic” training, no Cross Fit) and the workout is low rep, low volume. That’s my understanding after reading a lot on Intermittent Fasting and why I disagree with Lowery on this topic.

And whoever talked about Martin’s build, keep in mind the guy is (was?) a fashion model. If he’s still making money from that, that would be a definite restriction on bodyweight and range of build he could carry and still get work.

55

Also, I think people forget that there is a difference between catabolism and NET catabolism.

We actually need some catabolism to grow (for tissue restructuring), I believe. I will find the article that I read this in and post it if I can.

If you have more anabolism than catabolism, you have a NET anabolism.

If you have more catabolism than anabolism, you have a NET catabolism.

In short, you’re not really losing muscle within a 24 hour period unless you’re sprinting, doing LONG bouts of cardio, or high rep work–all while fasted.

56

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

[quote]fnf wrote:
Anyone try doing the MAG-10 pulses during the 16hr fast, then eating 2 or 3 meals and training normally during the 8hr window of the LeanGain prinicples? It seems like the pulse feast is a souped up version of LeanGains.

So:
Fast (kind of) 16 hours from 8pm to 12noon with pulses at 8am and 12noon

Eat from 12-8pm:
So:
Train at 3pm
Eat at 4pm (biggest meal) and 8pm[/quote]

Why even have a “pulse” at 8 am? Because you’re worried that you’re “catabolic” in the morning and eating away muscle?

I think that point has been largely overblown. You’re not in an active state–in fact, you’ve just woken up–so there’s no reason your body wouldn’t just burn fat for fuel. You would burn muscle IF you were engaged in activity that required a fuel source like glycogen or aminos from muscle tissue. Make sense?

I am almost positive that, unless you’re active or just coming off a good workout, your body will be burning fat for fuel.

I would just have a “pulse” at the start of your workout and another either halfway through or toward the end (it shouldn’t matter which). Then, start your feeding window with your largest and high carb meal as the first one eaten PWO.

From rising to workout, you should consume nothing. I think Martin recommends an “allowance” of about 50 calories or less, to make room for those who like a little cream with their coffee.

You CAN train fasted as long as there is little to no AEROBIC component (i.e. no circuit style or “metabolic” training, no Cross Fit) and the workout is low rep, low volume. That’s my understanding after reading a lot on Intermittent Fasting and why I disagree with Lowery on this topic.

And whoever talked about Martin’s build, keep in mind the guy is (was?) a fashion model. If he’s still making money from that, that would be a definite restriction on bodyweight and range of build he could carry and still get work.[/quote]

Hey Ponce, Thanks for the response. I wasn’t worried about being catabolic in the morning. I was just wondering about the anabolic affects of MAG-10 would have during the 16hr fasting period. LeanGains works just fine without MAG-10 during the 16 hour fast.

I’ve been using LeanGains for the past week and like eating 3 times during the 8hr feeding window. So I wanted to know a little bit more what Thibs and Shugart found by fiddling around with the fasting period.

Nice Avatar by the way. Monica Bellucci?

57


I’m currently doing a form of Pulse Feasting. I wake up take a one scoup pulse of MAG-10 then I lift. After I lift I drink a milk/Whey PW-shake. I take one scoup of MAG-10 again in the middle of the day. At around 6pm I eat around 2200-2700 cal. (40-P, 30-C, & 30-F)

I’m at the end of week 4 and I’ve lost around 8 lbs. I started at 200lbs at around 11-13.5% bf.

My largest complaint is that my strength has plummeted… Most noticeably in the dead-lift. I was in week 45 of 5/3/1 when I started. Due to my loss of strength I reset my maxes for the program.

I should also note that I was sick with a fever for 3 days in week 3.

I also feel like I’ve been loosing muscle and not not fat, however, it’s probably too early to tell. I plan on continuing the diet till mid April.

58

Been doing the 16-hour ‘leangains’ fast/8-hour feast for a month now. But, I made sure my calories and overall diet stayed exactly the way it was before, but compressed all eating into the 8-hour feed window. The result is what I expected: no change in bodyweight or bodycomp at all. Calories are the primary thing, as most good research shows.

Most trainees would experience the same thing if they kept their calories the same as before. Folks who want to lose weight, can do so with the leangains principle or by using conventional methods–providing calories are reduced. Folks who want to gain must do the reverse. Almost always, in an experienced lifter, when bodycomp or weight changes in a meaningful way, it is due primarily to caloric manipulation. It’s that simple.

59

[quote]Roygion wrote:
Been doing the 16-hour ‘leangains’ fast/8-hour feast for a month now. But, I made sure my calories and overall diet stayed exactly the way it was before, but compressed all eating into the 8-hour feed window. The result is what I expected: no change in bodyweight or bodycomp at all. Calories are the primary thing, as most good research shows.

Most trainees would experience the same thing if they kept their calories the same as before. Folks who want to lose weight, can do so with the leangains principle or by using conventional methods–providing calories are reduced. Folks who want to gain must do the reverse. Almost always, in an experienced lifter, when bodycomp or weight changes in a meaningful way, it is due primarily to caloric manipulation. It’s that simple. [/quote]

I’ve come to the same conclusion after doing the 16/8 schedule since last fall. The only thing that matters is overall calories. IF allows you to eat more calories after/before working out though, which in theory should help you maintain more muscle/strength, but it is probably nothing meaningful.

I am still following 16/8 scheme though. This is because my days can be pretty damn hectic at times, for example on monday and tuesday I leave my house at 7:30am and come back at 8pm… Normal dieting would be close to impossible, and IF actually makes it possible for me to comfortably stay in caloric deficit without carrying a damn fridgerator with me.

60

[quote]Roygion wrote:
Been doing the 16-hour ‘leangains’ fast/8-hour feast for a month now. But, I made sure my calories and overall diet stayed exactly the way it was before, but compressed all eating into the 8-hour feed window. The result is what I expected: no change in bodyweight or bodycomp at all. Calories are the primary thing, as most good research shows.

Most trainees would experience the same thing if they kept their calories the same as before. Folks who want to lose weight, can do so with the leangains principle or by using conventional methods–providing calories are reduced. Folks who want to gain must do the reverse. Almost always, in an experienced lifter, when bodycomp or weight changes in a meaningful way, it is due primarily to caloric manipulation. It’s that simple. [/quote]

So did you keep cals the same on your off days too? Or did you follow the 20% over 20% under for on/off days? I have been following it for 2 weeks now. The first week was an off week so all week long it was 20% under maintenance and during that week I went from 227 to 220.5.

I then went to following the 20% over on lifting days and this morning I weighed 224. There is a difference in BF comp but it is minimal. Again though its only been a week. I am lifting fasted around noon with only a BCAA mix 20 min or so before lifting. Plenty of energy and all my lifts last week were still strong. I will be interested in body comp and weight after a month. We’ll see…