Hello christian,you probably heard that question a lot,but i really want to know on which day to do the pullovers.
as much as i know in pullovers you have shoulder extension and the main extensor of the shoulder are the lats and the lower pecs are only a synergist.
i read a research that shows by EMG that the pecs does more of the work in this exercises,How is it even possible??
There are any differce if you are doing dummbel pullover or cable pullover on the muscles?
and the million dollar question:back routine or chest routine???
No I don’t get asked that a lot because it’s not a movement I use in my program, or very rarely.
The first third of the movement (from full extension up to when the hands go above the head) is mostly lats while the chest contribute in the second third… the last third doesn’t work anything really since it’s not really done against direct resistance.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
No I don’t get asked that a lot because it’s not a movement I use in my program, or very rarely.
The first third of the movement (from full extension up to when the hands go above the head) is mostly lats while the chest contribute in the second third… the last third doesn’t work anything really since it’s not really done against direct resistance.[/quote]
you mean from full flexion?
when the hands are in a straight line with the body the shoulder is fully flexed and when you raise the hands to above you head you have shoulder extension.
if you would build a workout to a trainee,where will you put the pullover,chest or back?
If you’re sitting at a lat pull down machine, facing away from it with your back braced against it, and do a straight arm pull down (pullover motion) of the bar as far as you can pull it down, that’s primarily a chest exercise. If you’re doing a standing or kneeling straight arm pull down (pullover motion), facing the machine, it’s primarily a back exercise. It you’re lying down and doing it straight armed with a barbell or dumbbell its a back exercise.
In the first and third versions, your back is braced against something, in the second it’s not.
In the first variation, most of the motion is involved pulling the bar forward and downward, which keeps the tension on the chest. If your back wasn’t braced (2nd) variation, your body is pushed back (relatively) and your lats and teres are more involved.
When you’re laying down, most of the tension is when the bar is overhead (relative to your body) which recruits your back. When the bar is directly out from your face is when the chest would mostly kick in, but there’s no tension this time.
At least that’s been my experience. Really just depends on the variation.
[quote]shestak wrote:you mean from full flexion?
when the hands are in a straight line with the body the shoulder is fully flexed and when you raise the hands to above you head you have shoulder extension.[/quote]
I think you’ve got it backwards:
Raising the arms overhead (e.g. Front Raise) = shoulder flexion.
Bringing the arms down and back, so the elbows/hands are behind the body, as is done against resistance in a Pullover (and to some degree in Rows, Triceps Kickbacks, etc.) = shoulder extension. But in a Pullover the bar or cable attachment hits your torso and prevents your shoulder from reaching full extension. And as CT said, if the exercise is done supine on a bench using a barbell or dumbbell there’s no resistance well before that point anyhow.
[quote]ty_ty13 wrote:
coach seems to think you’d be better off picking a different exercise… and i agree… too many better exercises for chest or back.[/quote]
i agree, but a good workout routine supposed to be diversed as i see it.most of the exercises should be compound and a few isolate,and the only lats exercise which isolate is the pullover,so i think you should use a few sets of pullovers.all the others lats exerices like pullups and rowing are compounds
so the problem is that pullover might activate the pectoralis more then the lattissimus dorsi
[quote]ty_ty13 wrote:
coach seems to think you’d be better off picking a different exercise… and i agree… too many better exercises for chest or back.[/quote]
i agree, but a good workout routine supposed to be diversed as i see it.most of the exercises should be compound and a few isolate,and the only lats exercise which isolate is the pullover,so i think you should use a few sets of pullovers.all the others lats exerices like pullups and rowing are compounds
so the problem is that pullover might activate the pectoralis more then the lattissimus dorsi[/quote]
An exercise can’t be an “isolation exercise” if it works more than one major muscle group… the pullover works the lats, chest and triceps… it is therefore a compound lift
You don’t NEED isolation exercise for everything in a program
[quote]ty_ty13 wrote:
coach seems to think you’d be better off picking a different exercise… and i agree… too many better exercises for chest or back.[/quote]
i agree, but a good workout routine supposed to be diversed as i see it.most of the exercises should be compound and a few isolate,and the only lats exercise which isolate is the pullover,so i think you should use a few sets of pullovers.all the others lats exerices like pullups and rowing are compounds
so the problem is that pullover might activate the pectoralis more then the lattissimus dorsi[/quote]
An exercise can’t be an “isolation exercise” if it works more than one major muscle group… the pullover works the lats, chest and triceps… it is therefore a compound lift
You don’t NEED isolation exercise for everything in a program[/quote]
1)An isolated exercise is an exerice that you move only 1 joint like in the pullover-only the shoulder joint moves(you have shoulder extension)
even in biceps curl work more then 1 muscle but it is still isolated
2)Ofcourse you dont need,but as i see it the best routine is a combination of compound and isolate exercises(more compund)
[quote]ty_ty13 wrote:
coach seems to think you’d be better off picking a different exercise… and i agree… too many better exercises for chest or back.[/quote]
i agree, but a good workout routine supposed to be diversed as i see it.most of the exercises should be compound and a few isolate,and the only lats exercise which isolate is the pullover,so i think you should use a few sets of pullovers.all the others lats exerices like pullups and rowing are compounds
so the problem is that pullover might activate the pectoralis more then the lattissimus dorsi[/quote]
An exercise can’t be an “isolation exercise” if it works more than one major muscle group… the pullover works the lats, chest and triceps… it is therefore a compound lift
You don’t NEED isolation exercise for everything in a program[/quote]
1)An isolated exercise is an exerice that you move only 1 joint like in the pullover-only the shoulder joint moves(you have shoulder extension)
even in biceps curl work more then 1 muscle but it is still isolated
2)Ofcourse you dont need,but as i see it the best routine is a combination of compound and isolate exercises(more compund)
[/quote]
no, you are using two different classification systems… multi-joint/single joint is the classification you should be using… not “isolation”… isolation refers to isolating one main muscle group. It’s true that you cannot isolate ONE muscle via an exercise, but in the scope of training “isolation” refers to an exercise targeting only one main muscle group that does the vast majority of the work. If you are referring to single-joint vs. compound/multi-joint, then you are right but these are semantics and really arguing that point is dumb.
That;s your belief, NOT mine. So why ask ME (and the people who visit my forum and thus share similar views) how to use pullovers since it doesn’t fit in 95% of my work. It’s like asking a Jewish person how to arrange your life to be a better muslum.
Anyway, my answer is that the pullover rarely has a place in my training except for some very specific purposes and as such a minor piece of the puzzle it’s not worth this discussion. I still gave you an answer when I said that if you want to isolate the lats with the pullover, only perform the first half of the concentric (lifting) portion. That’s WAY more than I should have spoken on that insignificant subject.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
CT didn’t you do an article about straight arm pulldowns once? [/quote]
With a pulley, not the same thing as a pullover. The issue with the pullover is that since you are lifting a free weight, the resistance is aimed straight down. Which means that for the first half/quarter of the movement you are moving somewhat against the resistance (maximum tension) but passed that you lose muscle tension because you are not moving against the resistant.
I did write about decline barbell pullovers which are a bit better since about 3/4 of the movement is done against the resistance.
Sorry, I meant straight arm pulldowns. That article is a blast from the past. I don’t see the date. I suspect your training is on a completely different level of thinking these days.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Sorry, I meant straight arm pulldowns. That article is a blast from the past. I don’t see the date. I suspect your training is on a completely different level of thinking these days.[/quote]
Yes but no…
Part of my training system still is about correcting weaknesses. And if one of your weaknesses are lats with a combination of strong biceps, then the SA pulldown is the solution.
FWIW - I have (machine) pullovers on my back day, and I basically include them in my routine b/c I have a bicep that just won’t heal enough for me to go really heavy on stuff like rows etc.
Pretty Simply Actually. It becomes a lat exercise if you utilize a decline using 3/4 the range of motion with a wide grip. Its a much greater emphasis on pulling in an arc fashion, emphasizing the pulling muscles of the upper back. In addition, as opposed to a flat bench version the resistance is present over a much greater range of motion because you are in a natural position to have to fight against gravity for a longer of time.
By the way the traditional pullover on a flat bench doesn’t emphasize the pectoralis major. Rather the pectoralis minor a muscle that if you do it right you’ll feel under your chin but won’t contribute much to the much larger pectoralis major and its three heads