How about rack pull-ups (feet on a bench, weighted if necessary)? They seem to be a happy medium between pull-ups and lat pulldowns…
I only do pullups, haven’t done lat pulldowns in years.
It’s like any other exercise, you are usually better off with free weights that use a full range of motion and require more core work. Pullups engage a broader range of muscles, and use those muscles to a larger degree.
You said it yourself: pullups are harder than pulldowns. That in itself is a good reason to give them preference.
[quote]belligerent wrote:
I don’t think the difference between the two exercises is as great as many people assume. Some guys spite pulldowns out of an apparent phobia of anything that could be mistaken for a machine, but I don’t think that’s valid.[/quote]
I completely agree, and am surprised on a BB website the notion that pulldowns suck is quite interesting.
Whether you’re pulling 200 lbs of BW for 10 reps, or doing 200 lbs on the pulldown your muscles aren’t going to be able to tell much of a difference.
It’s like saying curling a 50 lb DB is superior to curling a 50 lb rock.
and yes, I realize there’s the whole open chain/closed chain part of my analogy that I’m missing.
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
belligerent wrote:
I don’t think the difference between the two exercises is as great as many people assume. Some guys spite pulldowns out of an apparent phobia of anything that could be mistaken for a machine, but I don’t think that’s valid.
I completely agree, and am surprised on a BB website the notion that pulldowns suck is quite interesting.
Whether you’re pulling 200 lbs of BW for 10 reps, or doing 200 lbs on the pulldown your muscles aren’t going to be able to tell much of a difference.
It’s like saying curling a 50 lb DB is superior to curling a 50 lb rock.
and yes, I realize there’s the whole open chain/closed chain part of my analogy that I’m missing.[/quote]
Please tell me you’re joking right? Someone who weighs 200 lbs can pulldown 300 lb but might not be able to do a pullup with 100 lbs attached. They’re a totally different ball game. It’s not apples to apples so to speak.
Nothing, nothing hits my lats like dead hang kiss your wrist pullups, especially using extra weight, and with a mixed grip, or one hand on a towel ( 1 arm pullup progression) It feels like my fucking lat is about to rip out of my shoulder the stretch at the bottom is so intense.
I just can’t duplicate that stretch feeling that the dead hang gives, which I think is important for growth, while my body is restrained and my ass is sitting comfortably on a seat.
Hell, even the beloved Dante recognizes the power of pullups/chins that’s why he has the bigger guys do “rack chins.”
I’m not saying that pound for pound the exercises are the same. What I’m getting at is, assuming intensity is the same they will both result in hypertrophy or strength gains.
I’d like to see a guy that weighs 200 able to get 300 for reps on a lat pull, using strict form such as a chinup requires.
Most people who use a lot of weight on a lat pull end up turning the exercise into a swinging row more than anything.
My chinup and lat pull are pretty close in #s. Am I an anomaly on this?
[quote]Animal_Mother wrote:
bugeishaAD wrote:
I mean, you can do both?
true. there was a time when i did do both in the same back workout. i just figure now that if pullups aren’t giving me the results i desire, that i should drop them to conserve strength for other exercises. if they are not serving a purpose, then they would only be having a negative impact.
[/quote]
Yah man if you can’t feel pullups as good as pulldowns then it might be a good idea to just get rid of them.
If you don’t feel your back getting the most fatigue and pump from pullups then you should do pulldowns, as they allow for better focus on the back.
There’s no point to try and find ‘the hardest’ or the most reputable exercises when trying to build muscle. It’s far more important to make sure your back is doing the work correctly.
[quote]Majin wrote:
If you don’t feel your back getting the most fatigue and pump from pullups then you should do pulldowns, as they allow for better focus on the back.
There’s no point to try and find ‘the hardest’ or the most reputable exercises when trying to build muscle. It’s far more important to make sure your back is doing the work correctly.[/quote]
There’s also a thing called proper form. Usually that sorts out the “not feeling it” issue.
When i feel i need to concentrate on my lats, i will do them first in the workout - when it is more thickness and knots, i will row first.
I often do both pull-ups and downs… i favour pull ups over the pulldown variation however, as i do all the basic, anabolic response exercises.
I like to do pull ups with weight attached and venture into low reps (with volume achieved with rest/pause) - but use the lat pulldown or pulldown machine to really fatigue with slow eccentrics and a powerful and accelerating concentric.
It is about what works for you, but also about goal - i am bodybuilding so my goal is to fatigue the type II fibres as much as possible, as quickly as possible. I feel very heavy work followed by powerful and accelerating work does this to a great degree - for which both pullups and pull downs are both useful.
I am in the camp of not condemning a movement or exercise machine due to ego or vanity. The pullup machine could be good to work in the harder plane of motion - the top range - allowing you to gain in that area when pulling bodyweight and/or resisted. 
Brook
I do think that there are people who just don’t progress on chin-ups/pull-ups… perhaps more than any other exercise. Maybe its a technique thing. All I know is that these people are better off doing something else.
I did a long run of weighted (up to +70 pounds) pull-ups and chin-ups rather than using pulldowns. Turns out the run was too long. I didn’t listen to what my body was telling me and ended up with tendonitis in my elbows.
I am back to pulldowns until my elbows are 100%. They are working fine. One intensity advantage for me with pulldowns is the ability to easily do drop sets.
When I go back to pulls and chins, as part of the mix but not the only lat width exercise, I’ll focus less on the weight and more on slower negatives, more reps and a greater body lean angle.
[quote]greekdawg wrote:
Majin wrote:
If you don’t feel your back getting the most fatigue and pump from pullups then you should do pulldowns, as they allow for better focus on the back.
There’s no point to try and find ‘the hardest’ or the most reputable exercises when trying to build muscle. It’s far more important to make sure your back is doing the work correctly.
There’s also a thing called proper form. Usually that sorts out the “not feeling it” issue.[/quote]
Not necessarily. Especially with an exercise where the starting weight is pretty heavy as is.
I don’t see why you can’t just do both. It seems like a lot of people want to turn training into “either/or” extremes.
[quote]Animal_Mother wrote:
many of these coaches, who are self-proclaimed “muscle-building experts” who had brain-washed me in my earlier days, would condemn pulldowns to such a degree that they would lead you to believe that any and all muscle-building progress in your back would come to a screeching halt if pulldowns were favored over pullups/chins. [/quote]
Defranco seems to favor pull-downs as the main upper back assistance excerise in his programs for some reason. Id say switch em up as your vertical pulling exercise, itll give you more variety i.e. hit the lats from a slightly different angle.
On a side note how do u like Ferrugias new updated maximum mass program? I like the added high rep back off set. Just my two cents.
i find with pull downs i get a better stretch as I can concentrate on the stretch. I use both in my back work outs…
I think that pulldowns definetly have there place in certain peoples routine. When I first started out I did them beecause I was very heavy 249lbs at 14 years old I was ungodly fat. SO I had no choice but, now that I am at about 190lbs I have gotten much better results in strength from the pullup/chinup slow negatives and full ROM reps all though I cant do many of these still lol.
[quote]Tumbles wrote:
I don’t see why you can’t just do both. It seems like a lot of people want to turn training into “either/or” extremes.[/quote]
thank you - they all work well