Melvin anthony has some good things to say on pull ups & pulldowns while he trains back:
part 1 mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1133/204/
part 2 mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1134/204/
part 3 mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1135/204/
theres 6 more parts but pull ups/pulldowns are mainly talked about in those 3.
While there is nothing wrong with pulling all the way up until you touch your chest to the bar it’s also certainly not required to build lat width.
For instance:
(skip to about 1:53)
I always used the pulldown machine. Bought a door jam pullup bar last month and my lats have been exploding ever since.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Back width is largely a function of your clavicle width UNLESS you use the special method I described on a different thread of “dislocating” your scapulae - its very painful initially and possibly dangerous if you do it incorrectly-[/quote] Maxalding? Got a link to that thread of yours? As far as I remember, Dante’s method is somewhat different (unless I misread… He never actually described it, though) [quote] but OVERNIGHT adds several inches to your lat spread. Dante uses this trick quite well as do most older Bbers and I assume he taught you IM chumps the trick lol.[/quote] Nope, unfortunately not. [quote] The hanging lat stretch and palumbo’s idea with the vertical support make a big structural difference as do pullovers up to a certain age.
Rack chins are great if you arch back and keep chest up and stretch with a pause at the bottom, just like lat pulldowns - as you said.
For an excellent back finisher give this movement a try - kneel between two cable stacks such that the cables are roughly along the direction of your forearms (the more closely you satisfy this condition, the less your arms will be recruited in the movement), begin the movement with a full stretch and squeeze scapulae together with a pause at finish.
\end{hijack}
[/quote]
If only I had 2 cable-stacks … 
Thanks for the info.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I think it’s also very important to know proper form while performing pull ups. Barely touching the top of your head to the bar and swinging your ass up there is not considered a complete pullup.
I hear too many peeps claiming that they can do 15-20 pullups, but when u watch them perform pull ups, they are swinging all over the place and barely move towards the bar. If your going to do proper pullups at least get your chin to the bar.
Try touching your chest to the bar as u would when doing pull downs and see how many u can perform before failure…probably not too many. It takes practice like any other exercise, but the results will be much better for sure.
While there is nothing wrong with pulling all the way up until you touch your chest to the bar it’s also certainly not required to build lat width. [/quote] IMO it’s more hindrance than anything else. This isn’t an arm exercise after all. Strength athletes can do full pull-ups all they want, but for bodybuilders… [quote]
For instance:
(skip to about 1:53)
[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
Melvin anthony has some good things to say on pull ups & pulldowns while he trains back:
part 1 mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1133/204/
part 2 mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1134/204/
part 3 mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1135/204/
theres 6 more parts but pull ups/pulldowns are mainly talked about in those 3.[/quote]
Good movies. Thanks for the links.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
I think it’s also very important to know proper form while performing pull ups. Barely touching the top of your head to the bar and swinging your ass up there is not considered a complete pullup.
I hear too many peeps claiming that they can do 15-20 pullups, but when u watch them perform pull ups, they are swinging all over the place and barely move towards the bar. If your going to do proper pullups at least get your chin to the bar.
Try touching your chest to the bar as u would when doing pull downs and see how many u can perform before failure…probably not too many. It takes practice like any other exercise, but the results will be much better for sure.
While there is nothing wrong with pulling all the way up until you touch your chest to the bar it’s also certainly not required to build lat width.
IMO it’s more hindrance than anything else. This isn’t an arm exercise after all. Strength athletes can do full pull-ups all they want, but for bodybuilders…
[/quote]
Well, I personally don’t do it either. Like you said I’m after hitting my lats which are most recruited in the bottom ROM. I don’t really care where my chin winds up, just so that I feel the exercise in my lats and attempt to contract them fully.
But, I don’t proclaim to know everyone’s body, so I didn’t want to come across like everyone has to use the same ROM to get results.
[quote]crod266 wrote:
pull-ups are ok but lat-pulldown is so much easier to progress on[/quote]
This should say it all…
Easy isn’t what we’re after.
When something is so much easier, it usually isn’t the right choice. Follows the same logic that of “I would rather leg press then squat because ill be able to leg press 400 for reps easier then squat 400 for reps”
Doesnt mean they don’t both have a place, but just because something is hard, we shouldn’t write it off.
[quote]WS4JB wrote:
crod266 wrote:
pull-ups are ok but lat-pulldown is so much easier to progress on
This should say it all…
Easy isn’t what we’re after.
When something is so much easier, it usually isn’t the right choice. Follows the same logic that of “I would rather leg press then squat because ill be able to leg press 400 for reps easier then squat 400 for reps”
Doesnt mean they don’t both have a place, but just because something is hard, we shouldn’t write it off.[/quote]
Actually, technically, the exercise that allows us to PROGRESS easier (aka the fastest) is the exercise that is going to produce the most mass gains. I mean, correct me if i’m wrong here, but isn’t that the reason why compound movements should be the staple of every program? Because it’s easier to add 10 pounds every week on the squat than on leg extensions. Which is of course hypothetical because you can’t add 10 pounds every session forever but you get my point.
Just pointing out that he said lat pulldowns are easier to PROGRESS on, not just easier.
[quote]That One Guy wrote:
WS4JB wrote:
crod266 wrote:
pull-ups are ok but lat-pulldown is so much easier to progress on
This should say it all…
Easy isn’t what we’re after.
When something is so much easier, it usually isn’t the right choice. Follows the same logic that of “I would rather leg press then squat because ill be able to leg press 400 for reps easier then squat 400 for reps”
Doesnt mean they don’t both have a place, but just because something is hard, we shouldn’t write it off.
Actually, technically, the exercise that allows us to PROGRESS easier (aka the fastest) is the exercise that is going to produce the most mass gains. I mean, correct me if i’m wrong here, but isn’t that the reason why compound movements should be the staple of every program? Because it’s easier to add 10 pounds every week on the squat than on leg extensions. Which is of course hypothetical because you can’t add 10 pounds every session forever but you get my point.
Just pointing out that he said lat pulldowns are easier to PROGRESS on, not just easier.[/quote]
well said and exactly my point.
For me,I gained 10lb in the past 3-4 months and my weighted pullup 1RM dropped by over 20lb.
[quote]WS4JB wrote:
crod266 wrote:
pull-ups are ok but lat-pulldown is so much easier to progress on
This should say it all…
Easy isn’t what we’re after.
When something is so much easier, it usually isn’t the right choice. Follows the same logic that of “I would rather leg press then squat because ill be able to leg press 400 for reps easier then squat 400 for reps”
Doesnt mean they don’t both have a place, but just because something is hard, we shouldn’t write it off.[/quote]
True, easier isn’t necessarily better.
But, in the case of something like pull-ups where you are pulling your own bodyweight (plus added resistance in many cases) it’s going to be difficult to continue to progress due to the fact that you should be gaining bodyweight.
So not only are your muscles having to overcome the resistance that you are adding to the weight belt, but also the added bodyweight that you are gaining. This makes it very difficult to continue adding weight to the exercise on a consistent basis.
With something like lat pulldowns you are only pulling what is on the stack and the bodyweight that you are gaining is actually helping you, not hindering you. This makes it much more likely that you’ll be able to consistently add resistance.
I think part of the reason some people think its easier to progress pulldowns is because it is easier to cheat on them and not notice it. With a pullup, you’ll know if you are using momentum, because you’ll be swinging around like a crossfitter, but with pulldowns it will be very subtle.
Sentoguy, I have a question for you. Pullups have been helped my lats grow better than anything else, maybe not deadlifts but either way pullups have been great. 99% of the people I see in the gym do them the opposite of the way you described. (They get their chin above the bar, and then only come down 1/2 way) Im assuming this targets biceps more, and they are either doing it for this reason, or because they cant do full ROM. Ive always done full ROM because i thought it was better, but ive gotten to the point with full ROM where im only hitting my biceps and my lats dont get much effect.
Is it best to use pullups/pulldowns to hit the lats hard, and then do curls to hit the biceps
Or would you include bottom partials heavy to hit the lats AND full ROM or top partials to hit the biceps
[quote]WS4JB wrote:
crod266 wrote:
pull-ups are ok but lat-pulldown is so much easier to progress on
This should say it all…
Easy isn’t what we’re after.
When something is so much easier, it usually isn’t the right choice. Follows the same logic that of “I would rather leg press then squat because ill be able to leg press 400 for reps easier then squat 400 for reps”
Doesnt mean they don’t both have a place, but just because something is hard, we shouldn’t write it off.[/quote]
He was talking about easier progression though…
Squats are easier to progress on than leg extensions, for example.
Pulldowns are easier to progress on than pull-ups, usually, since your own fluctuating bodyweight does not matter.
[quote]That One Guy wrote:
WS4JB wrote:
crod266 wrote:
pull-ups are ok but lat-pulldown is so much easier to progress on
This should say it all…
Easy isn’t what we’re after.
When something is so much easier, it usually isn’t the right choice. Follows the same logic that of “I would rather leg press then squat because ill be able to leg press 400 for reps easier then squat 400 for reps”
Doesnt mean they don’t both have a place, but just because something is hard, we shouldn’t write it off.
Actually, technically, the exercise that allows us to PROGRESS easier (aka the fastest) is the exercise that is going to produce the most mass gains. I mean, correct me if i’m wrong here, but isn’t that the reason why compound movements should be the staple of every program? Because it’s easier to add 10 pounds every week on the squat than on leg extensions. Which is of course hypothetical because you can’t add 10 pounds every session forever but you get my point.
Just pointing out that he said lat pulldowns are easier to PROGRESS on, not just easier.[/quote]
Ah damnit, I should have kept reading… You said the same stuff I did 
#Edit: You even used the same example of squats and leg extensions lol
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
WS4JB wrote:
crod266 wrote:
pull-ups are ok but lat-pulldown is so much easier to progress on
This should say it all…
Easy isn’t what we’re after.
When something is so much easier, it usually isn’t the right choice. Follows the same logic that of “I would rather leg press then squat because ill be able to leg press 400 for reps easier then squat 400 for reps”
Doesnt mean they don’t both have a place, but just because something is hard, we shouldn’t write it off.
Actually, technically, the exercise that allows us to PROGRESS easier (aka the fastest) is the exercise that is going to produce the most mass gains. I mean, correct me if i’m wrong here, but isn’t that the reason why compound movements should be the staple of every program?
Because it’s easier to add 10 pounds every week on the squat than on leg extensions. Which is of course hypothetical because you can’t add 10 pounds every session forever but you get my point.
Just pointing out that he said lat pulldowns are easier to PROGRESS on, not just easier.
Ah damnit, I should have kept reading… You said the same stuff I did
#Edit: You even used the same example of squats and leg extensions lol[/quote]
Lol get out of my head C_C!!!
[quote]That One Guy wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
WS4JB wrote:
crod266 wrote:
pull-ups are ok but lat-pulldown is so much easier to progress on
This should say it all…
Easy isn’t what we’re after.
When something is so much easier, it usually isn’t the right choice. Follows the same logic that of “I would rather leg press then squat because ill be able to leg press 400 for reps easier then squat 400 for reps”
Doesnt mean they don’t both have a place, but just because something is hard, we shouldn’t write it off.
Actually, technically, the exercise that allows us to PROGRESS easier (aka the fastest) is the exercise that is going to produce the most mass gains.
I mean, correct me if i’m wrong here, but isn’t that the reason why compound movements should be the staple of every program? Because it’s easier to add 10 pounds every week on the squat than on leg extensions. Which is of course hypothetical because you can’t add 10 pounds every session forever but you get my point.
Just pointing out that he said lat pulldowns are easier to PROGRESS on, not just easier.
Ah damnit, I should have kept reading… You said the same stuff I did
#Edit: You even used the same example of squats and leg extensions lol
Lol get out of my head C_C!!![/quote]
Hey, great minds think alike…