Prolactin .vs. Progesterone...and Estrogen???

Pharma
61

[quote]AlteredState wrote:
Dopa wrote:
9. GH increases prolactin production.
).

Can you provide a ref. for this please?[/quote]

yea a ref would be swell :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

If in fact GH does increase prolactin, Alt’s GH + test and whatever gyno was probably caused by prolactin and estrogen…a BUNCH of adex killed it.

So now the question still arises…how does prolactin cause gyno?? It seems it needs estrogen. My reason for this is that the adex killed off excess estrogen but won’t do anything for the prolactin, but the adex eliminated the gyno…so prolactin must need estrogen for gyno???

LOL

DG

62

AHA!

so maybe a theory on why prohormones cause gyno is based on the fact that most prohormones are progestin based (i remember reading that somewhere, please correct me if I’m wrong)

If Progestin’s cause an increase in prolactin then this can lead to gyno. Even if the pro-h doesn’t aromatize or cause excess estrogen.

You know what this is just another thing to think about…i’ll worry about it later. lol

DG

64

[quote]AlteredState wrote:
Dopa wrote:
9. GH increases prolactin production.
).

Can you provide a ref. for this please?[/quote]

Sorry, I don’t know what I was thinking on that one. It’s counter intuitive based on dopamine agonist’s effect on GH production.

I did some research and found that GH can cause gyno through increased IGF-1 production and it’s direct effect on mammary developement.

Also…

“Estrogen, acting through its ER a receptor, promotes duct growth, while progesterone, also acting through its receptor (PR), supports alveolar development.”

“Prolactin stimulates epithelial cell proliferation only in the presence of estrogen and enhances lobulo-alveolar differentiation only with concomitant progesterone.” I find this interesting as I’ve seen a very small minority of people develop gyno on Tren with rock bottom estradiol levels.

An interesting article.

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm

65

really interesting read so far guys…keep it coming.

i have always had issues with gyno on cycle. I have finally figured out my dosing to control it with test but recently started tren and I am having issues again.

with test i get puffy/itchy nipples/chest…take enough adex and it’s gone…take too much adex and i get sore shins and joints. pretty easy to figure out the dose from there.

with the tren i now have a sore nipple (just the left one for some reason). no itch or puffiness just a pain in the gland beneath the nipple like I got a purple nurple.

to try to control it I recently switched from adex (0.25mg/d) to letro (1.25mg/d) and have been taking about 200mg/d of B6 but it doesn’t seem to be helping (has been about 4 days).

Just took some nolva and will see if that has any effect (I doubt it will be want to see what it will do).

if that doesn’t work I am going to pull the tren out and I will be down to using bromo or caber on future deca/tren cycles.

66

Concerning one of the previous posts on them having different mechanisms of causing gyno I would say from my response that it may be the case…

ie - estro mostly causing growth of the breast tissue and prolactin mostly causing growth of the mammory gland.

67

another possibility (total guess here) is that it has something to do with IGF-1…The last time I had an issue with gyno i was taking a lot of aromatizing androgens so there was definitely a lot of estrogen in my system so I blamed that…

something I didn’t mention because I didn’t think it was significant at the time was that I injected IGF-1 into my chest around that time that the problems started (my chest is lagging so I figured what the hell lets put 20mcg in each of my upper pecs…

there was substantial improvement where I injected by the way, slightly fuller around the edges of the muscle and more seperation).

I wonder if it’s possible (partly because I’m stoned) that IGF-1 has something to do with it and could be the same cause for it with trenbolone which is why if people effectively control estrogen it doesn’t seem to be an issue.

This is taken from a profile of Tren from another site:

Trenbolone greatly increases the level of the extremely anabolic hormone IGF-1 within muscle tissue (2).

And, it´s worth noting that not only does it increase the levels of IGF-1 in muscle over two fold, it also causes muscle satellite cells (cells that repair damaged muscle) to be more sensitive to IGF-1 and other growth factors(3). The amount of DNA per muscle cell may also be significantly increased (3).

Something like this could well create the conditions upon which you’d get rapid growth of the breast tissue.

Maybe it isn’t just a combination of the estrogen and prolactin. another factor might be IGF-1 (and the upregulation of receptors). This would explain why gyno issues seem to be worse with Tren than they are with Deca.

Just a random thought…

FG

68

Want to give my thoughts on two issues:
One being Prolactin/Progestone and the 19-nors,
And the other being in regards to Anadrol and it’s mentioned as a Progesterone raising compound and Winstrol as an “protectant”:

Off the top of my head regarding Prolactin raising with 19-nors, I believe it might mostly have to do with endogenous suppression of Progesterone caused by the exogenous effect and stimulation from the Progestins causing one to reduce endogenous production which would lead to:

~Decreasing T3 (which in itself will allow Prolactin to raise and thyroid is part of the regulation process)
~Potential mood swings
~Night Sweats
~Lack of energy
~Potential raise in SHBG which could signal the increase in production/sensitivity of estrogen receptors and potentially lower dht conversion

Most of the symptoms of low progesterone are similar to the sides of Tren. Hmm?

Other ways of increasing Prolactin a few various routes:

~Increased Estrogen
~Manually stimulating one’s nipples, lol
~Decreased Thyroid
~Decreased Dopamine
~Having an orgasm (temporary though, but then again Prolactin is quickly destroyed and pulsates in it’s levels greatly regardless)

Excessive Progesterone can cause many bad things too, and being that 19-nors act as progestins, they could be selective like SERMS are and act as high progesterone in some tissues and areas and shut-down natural progesterone and in some tissues/areas have that effect? Remember that a progestin is a synthetic progestogen that has some biological activity similar to progesterone dependant on the progestin and independant of progesterone.

I personally find that including 3 steps in my cycling eliminate most sides from Tren:

  1. control estrogen through an AI
  2. include a dht
  • one of the following:
    ~optimize T3 with 50mcg or so of Cytomel
    ~run Dbol
    ~run Dostinex

Usually I do the T3 and Dbol, which I feel is a badass addition to Tren, even if it doesn’t increase dopamine, which empirically it seems to.

I know it is said that Anadrol is a progestin, which it is not - it is a dht compound and some say that is increases levels of progesterone, which dependant on estrogen, exerts progestronic sides. I haven’t really seen the evidence for that, but it does seem almost convincing from an empirical stand point from the many who claim to have gotten gyno from it. So maybe somehow a DHT-based compound can increase progesterone by a great amount? I don’t see how though.

As far as estrogen, Anadrol cannot aromatize. It is possible that it could compromise liver clearance of estrogen, allowing more in the system and more problems when using an aromatizing steroid. I think there is something being overlooked though:

The reasons I know of that Winstrol seems to be a good candidate with Anadrol would be by some of it’s nature in countering estrogen/progesterone which include: SHBG lowering -the high SHBG lowering causes the faster destruction of estrogen and without an increase in estrogen leads to a lowering by that effect.

Winstrol causes a great effect of this at the liver and going with Anadrol comprismising estrogen clearance there, we have a good reason in itself. Given that it appears that Anadrol blocks estrogen clearance at the liver and winstrol enhances estrogen clearance at the liver I would assume that would be the answer. It’s probably not that Anadrol has any progesterone-like effects, but rather reduces the destruction and clearance of estrogen greatly, allowing endogenous levels to raise far above normal.

The other thing I could see is if it were possible that Anadrol did increase progesterone levels, Winstrol(dht) helps prevent estrogen-dependent augmentation of progesterone receptors, which is, as far as I can see the only way that progestins are capable of causing ‘progesteronic’ sides anyway.

69

[quote]TheBeat2 wrote:
Want to give my thoughts on two issues:
One being Prolactin/Progestone and the 19-nors,
And the other being in regards to Anadrol and it’s mentioned as a Progesterone raising compound and Winstrol as an “protectant”:

Off the top of my head regarding Prolactin raising with 19-nors, I believe it might mostly have to do with endogenous suppression of Progesterone caused by the exogenous effect and stimulation from the Progestins causing one to reduce endogenous production which would lead to:

~Decreasing T3 (which in itself will allow Prolactin to raise and thyroid is part of the regulation process)
~Potential mood swings
~Night Sweats
~Lack of energy
~Potential raise in SHBG which could signal the increase in production/sensitivity of estrogen receptors and potentially lower dht conversion

Most of the symptoms of low progesterone are similar to the sides of Tren. Hmm?

Other ways of increasing Prolactin a few various routes:

~Increased Estrogen
~Manually stimulating one’s nipples, lol
~Decreased Thyroid
~Decreased Dopamine
~Having an orgasm (temporary though, but then again Prolactin is quickly destroyed and pulsates in it’s levels greatly regardless)

Excessive Progesterone can cause many bad things too, and being that 19-nors act as progestins, they could be selective like SERMS are and act as high progesterone in some tissues and areas and shut-down natural progesterone and in some tissues/areas have that effect? Remember that a progestin is a synthetic progestogen that has some biological activity similar to progesterone dependant on the progestin and independant of progesterone.

I personally find that including 3 steps in my cycling eliminate most sides from Tren:

  1. control estrogen through an AI
  2. include a dht
  • one of the following:
    ~optimize T3 with 50mcg or so of Cytomel
    ~run Dbol
    ~run Dostinex

Usually I do the T3 and Dbol, which I feel is a badass addition to Tren, even if it doesn’t increase dopamine, which empirically it seems to.

I know it is said that Anadrol is a progestin, which it is not - it is a dht compound and some say that is increases levels of progesterone, which dependant on estrogen, exerts progestronic sides. I haven’t really seen the evidence for that, but it does seem almost convincing from an empirical stand point from the many who claim to have gotten gyno from it. So maybe somehow a DHT-based compound can increase progesterone by a great amount? I don’t see how though.

As far as estrogen, Anadrol cannot aromatize. It is possible that it could compromise liver clearance of estrogen, allowing more in the system and more problems when using an aromatizing steroid. I think there is something being overlooked though:

The reasons I know of that Winstrol seems to be a good candidate with Anadrol would be by some of it’s nature in countering estrogen/progesterone which include: SHBG lowering -the high SHBG lowering causes the faster destruction of estrogen and without an increase in estrogen leads to a lowering by that effect.

Winstrol causes a great effect of this at the liver and going with Anadrol comprismising estrogen clearance there, we have a good reason in itself. Given that it appears that Anadrol blocks estrogen clearance at the liver and winstrol enhances estrogen clearance at the liver I would assume that would be the answer. It’s probably not that Anadrol has any progesterone-like effects, but rather reduces the destruction and clearance of estrogen greatly, allowing endogenous levels to raise far above normal.

The other thing I could see is if it were possible that Anadrol did increase progesterone levels, Winstrol(dht) helps prevent estrogen-dependent augmentation of progesterone receptors, which is, as far as I can see the only way that progestins are capable of causing ‘progesteronic’ sides anyway. [/quote]

WOW. Not your average first post. lol

thanks man

DG

70

Good post TheBeat2.

Even though Anadrol is DHT based doesn’t mean it can’t have progestin metabolites.

Here’s a good discussion of the progestin qualities of Anadrol. Take special note of Macrophage69alpha’s posts.

afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/22041-anadrol-vs-dbol.html

71

I don’t think anyone was claiming drol to be a progestin…they were saying it is a DHT that may stimulate the progestrone receptor…kinda like how tren can stimulate the DHT receptors in your scalp and cause hairloss.

i don’t know that anyone backed that up with any studies or hard evidence though.

72

Good post TheBeat2.

Even though Anadrol is DHT based doesn’t mean it can’t have progestin metabolites.

Here’s a good discussion of the progestin qualities of Anadrol. Take special note of Macrophage69alpha’s posts.

afboard.com/forum/anabolic-discussion/22041-anadrol-vs-dbol.html

THANKS, GOOD DISCUSSION THERE, EVEN IF IT’S BASED ON OUT-DATED THEORY WITHOUT ANY SCIENTIFIC BACKING. I STAND BY MY POSITION WITHOUT THE NEED TO MAKE STUFF UP LIKE IT HAVING PROGESTIN METABOLITES.

I don’t think anyone was claiming drol to be a progestin…they were saying it is a DHT that may stimulate the progestrone receptor…kinda like how tren can stimulate the DHT receptors in your scalp and cause hairloss.

i don’t know that anyone backed that up with any studies or hard evidence though.

I DON’T THINK THAT TREN STIMULATES THE “DHT” RECEPTORS, BUT RATHER ARE 5X AS ANDROGENIC AS TEST AND MUCH MORE SO THAN DHT AND THEREFORE BINDING EXTREMELY WELL TO THE AR IN THE SCALP AND PROSTATE AND THEREBY EXERTING STRONG EFFECTS, JUST LIKE THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE WITH DECA - IT BINDS VERY WELL TO THE AR IN THE PROSTATE AND SCALP, BUT EXERTS VERY LITTLE EFFECT AND ACTUALLY ACTS AS SOMEWHAT OF AN PROTECTANT DUE TO ITS STRONG BINDING.

73

@ the beat2

when quoting something it would look like this…in your quote replace the word gerdy with the word quote below…

[gerdy] place quote here [/gerdy]

so it would look like this

you seem to have a lot of knowledge on stuff but this is a “how to” with the quotes :stuck_out_tongue: lol

I was having trouble figuring out what the heck was going in in that last post and typing in all caps seems like your yelling so…lol

Not attacking you, just trying to help out. lol

DG

74

WELL HERE’S A REAL “HUMM-DINGGER”!!!

My sister has gained 80lbs in three months all though she eats smaller portions due to all the weight she has gained!!!

Thats not the dinger!

She has been lack tating producing milk for three months all so!

The doc has checked her progesterone levels estrogen and test every thing is normal he says just deal with it!!!

What the fuck could be any stranger than that she’s not pregnant thyroid checks out!

I wouldn’t say this to her but she looks swollen and terrible she’s my sister man and i want to help!
But how

75

I realize this is the steroid forum but the look she has on her face man this is eating her up!!

Any help as to what the prob might be would be more than appreciated even if it is simply pm’ed to me!!

Thx before hand,
The judge

Sorry for the jack my gerdy

76

[quote]judgeroybean wrote:
I realize this is the steroid forum but the look she has on her face man this is eating her up!!

Any help as to what the prob might be would be more than appreciated even if it is simply pm’ed to me!!

Thx before hand,
The judge

Sorry for the jack my gerdy[/quote]

no problem on the hi jack. Maybe we can relate this to the topic somehow and learn…all while helping your sister out.

You said she is lactating and the doc said her prolactin was normal? Does the doc know she is lactating?
I think you said progesterone etc was checked, I imagine prolactin was too.

If the thyroid is fine and all her hormones are fine then it’s her diet.

From the info you sent I’d say lack of exercise and a poor diet is the cause, either that or see another doc or get more bloodwork done because they missed something.

not much help…but thats all i got.

DG

77

[quote]2thepain wrote:
I found this on a thread from a different board. It sounds rather simple, maybe a little too simple. But have a read tell me if you think this guy has a clue.

"Most of you do not understand the action of prolactin in the body and its relationship to progesterone (a hormone that stimulates prolactin release). Anadrol, DECA, FINA, and Tren cause elevated prolactin levels.

None of these drugs aromatize or affect estrogen levels. They do stimulate progesterone release. Increased progesterone will cause an increase of prolactin. Increased estrogen levels can also stimulate increased prolactin levels. Prolactin stimulates the glandular tissue in the male breast. This is what causes the lactation and other gyno-like symptoms.

When a user uses Testsoterone and an anti-e, he keeps his estrogen levels in check, and suffers no estrogenic or prolactin sides. When a user uses DECA, FINA, TREN or Anadrol, he may increase his prolactin levels.

Bromo was a first-generation drug of choice for lowering prolactin levels with BB’ers. The problem with Bromo is proper dosing and the nasty side effects. Then along came Dostinex. It was easier to dose and it had no sides.

Both of these drugs directly inhibit prolactin. Stanozolol or Winstrol also inhibits prolactin, but it does it differently. Winstrol blocks progesterone receptors. By doing so, it inhibits prolactin. While Dostinex is the safest way to control Prolactin, it is the most expensive.

My next choice would be to use low-dose Winstrol (50mg, Mon, Wed, Fri) with my DECA, FINA/Tren, or Anadrol. You know the problems with Winstrol, but if the cycle is eight weeks or less, you will be OK.

Also, I have found that if one keeps his weekly DECA dosing below 400mg weekly that Proalctin doesn’t seem to be a problem. The important thing is to keep prolactin and estrogen under control during one’s cycles."
[/quote]

So he’s saying that bromo and caber act like AI’s in effect, and Winstrol acts like a SERM in effect in regards to the proG receptors.

Interesting.

78

Hmmmmmmmm excercise well her and my mother are planning to give jazzercise a go here soon.

Will it help maybe with the weight on a real note this just popped up yes she is producing milk.

The doc is being very un sensitive in saying deal with it all your hormonal tests are perfectly fine “asshole”

You could at least fake an interest in helping her but i am sorry i left this out the only test not done yet is her testerone.

Well since she isn’t here to here this i will bust her head i believe she may be abusing pain meds.

But seriously gerdy i’m at a loss with this one!!!

Thx for your chime and understanding brother!!!

79

Oh yeah i will mention to her that it may be her diet.

80

[quote]judgeroybean wrote:
Oh yeah i will mention to her that it may be her diet.[/quote]

lol that’d be a good start and I’d get a second opinion from another doctor if this one seems like he doesn’t care. If a doctor doesn’t have any interest in his/her patients then something is wrong.

Abusing any meds can negatively affect the body as well.

No problem for what little help I gave man. lol

DG