Progression with Bands

[Colbstar]

Hey CT! How would you setup a progression involving banding the main performance lifts? I want to implement them in because my experience with them so far has been phenomenal.

My order of 2 short mini bands, 2 short monster minis, 2 long mini bands, and 2 long monster minis bands came in 4 days ago. All I have to say is that they are AMAZING! I have tried banding and reverse banding my 5 big pressing lifts (front squat, deadlift, push press, incline, bench) and I have to say that the strength curve adjustments have given me the best contractions I have ever had in my life - in the past 4 days! And I feel amazingly powerful.

Here is what I am currently doing (using HPMASS as a template):

Days 1 & 2: Lower Body Pressing - Ramp to MTW and Wave Load

1. Front Squat - MTW is 195lbs, Wave Load
2. Deadlift - MTW is 275lbs, Wave Load

Days 3 & 4: Upper Body Pressing - Ramp to MTW and Wave Load Optional Staggered Assistance Work

1. Push Press - MTW is 140lbs
2. Incline Press - MTW is 160lbs
3. Bench Press - MTW is 180lbs
4. Front Squat - Single ramp to MTW of 195lbs

Days 5 & 6: Pulling for Overall Development - Ramp to MTW on Push Press. Then transition into the back workout.

1. Push Press to MTW of 140lbs
2. Back stuff I’ll go ahead and skip.

Day 7 is a Neural Charge/Activation workout (and Arms if I want).

Days 1-4 are the days that I would like some help with a progression. I had a few ideas.

Week 1 & 4: no bands
Week 2 & 5: attach mini bands
Week 3 & 6: attach monster mini bands
OR
Week 1 & 4: attach mini bands
Week 2 & 5: attach monster mini bands
Week 3 & 6: attach BOTH types
OR
Week 1 & 4: Reverse Band both types - for the most amount of pull at bottom
Week 2 & 5: Reverse Band monster minis - for the second most
Week 3 & 6: Reverse Band minis - for the least

The main problem I have with reverse banding is that I have no idea what weights to use. For example, experimenting with my front squats today led me to reverse band (mini and MM on each side) front squatting 275lbs for 3 easy reps. This was crazy considering my normal 3 rep max is 245lbs, and my max training weight that I am working up to 4 times a week is 195lbs.
Do you have any idea on how strong I generally should be using the reverse band setup - if that is what you would recommend?

If it helps, some of my max lifts include:
Deadlift: 335lbs = 5RM - 6/28/14
ATG Front Squat: 245lbs = 3RM - 6/22/14
Bench Press: 205lbs = 3RM - 6/23/14
Bench Press: 215lbs = 2RM - 6/23/14

Thank you to anyone who could help! Bands are AWESOME!!! I am having a ton of fun playing around with some of this stuff.

• Colby

[Colbstar]

If anyone needs me to evaluate on anything in particular to help answer a question, just let me know here down below! I know it was a big read.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

I’ll read your program more in-depth later.

But with bands, the “with bands (bottom bands)” setting is VERY stressful on the muscles and tendons because it drastically increase eccentric loading (the bands not only add resistance but try to throw the bar down).

As a result I found that:

a) bands will make you sore and inflamed for longer
b) it takes much longer to recover after a session
c) it is more neurologically demanding

Note that reverse bands do NOT increase eccentric stress the same way and are thus much less traumatic.

I DO NOT recommend using bands on a lift for more than 2 weeks in a row.

I understand the desire to use them all the time. When you find a new toy to play with, you want to use it all the time. When I first discovered chains I did every single exercise with chains, even curls and triceps extension!

But with bands it can be problematic for long term progress.

To me…

Bottom bands = high stress/shock period
No bands = base training
Reverse bands = deload
Chains = can be used for base loading but is slightly more demanding

If you only have bands you could go:

Weeks 1 - 2 : No bands
Week 3 : Band
Week 4 : Band (more band resistance)
Week 5: No bands
Week 6: Reverse bands
Weeks 7-8: No bands

[Colbstar]

Thanks for the reply, coach! Awesome tips.
To answer a point you brought up: yes, I only have bands. No chains.

If the traditional bottom band setup is really that hard on recovery, would reverse banding with a heavier load be a better option for me? That way the weight deloads at the bottom, is about my daily max training weight in the mid portion, and is heavier at the lockout where I am strongest? Experimenting this way felt amazing. I felt seriously powerful with the crazy acceleration, and reverse band front squatting felt so good to my back.
Something like adding 20-50lbs more to the bar than I would normally do for upper body lifts and 50-80lbs more for lower body lifts? Or in your experience, does reverse banding with a heavier load not really work that well?

I am currently training twice a day (sled work in the evening), 7 days a week, and would like to keep it that way if possible. I love training frequently.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]Colbstar wrote:
Thanks for the reply, coach! Awesome tips.
To answer a point you brought up: yes, I only have bands. No chains.

If the traditional bottom band setup is really that hard on recovery, would reverse banding with a heavier load be a better option for me? That way the weight deloads at the bottom, is about my daily max training weight in the mid portion, and is heavier at the lockout where I am strongest? Experimenting this way felt amazing. I felt seriously powerful with the crazy acceleration, and reverse band front squatting felt so good to my back.
Something like adding 20-50lbs more to the bar than I would normally do for upper body lifts and 50-80lbs more for lower body lifts? Or in your experience, does reverse banding with a heavier load not really work that well?

I am currently training twice a day (sled work in the evening), 7 days a week, and would like to keep it that way if possible. I love training frequently.[/quote]

I like reverse band…

… to get used to holding heavier loads (at the top you are pretty much holding up the whole weight)

… as a deload as it is much less traumatic than even regular lifting because the bands decrease the eccentric stress a lot … so it causes less trauma and inflamation

… to continue lifting when you are a bit nicked up… those with some minor shoulder issues will find that they can continue to press when using the reverse band set-up

But I find that reverse bands aren’t as effective as bottom bands or even regular lifting to build muscle size and whole body movement strength.

Bottom bands are a very powerful method to gain both size and strength, but they shouldn’t be used for more than 2 weeks in a row.

So…

Best results = bottom bands

But you can only use it for a short period of time

The reverse bands are to be used as a deload between periods of stress, to continue training when slightly injured or in the week prior to a test, both to get used to heavy weights while you are diminishing inflamation.

[Colbstar]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Colbstar wrote:
Thanks for the reply, coach! Awesome tips.
To answer a point you brought up: yes, I only have bands. No chains.

If the traditional bottom band setup is really that hard on recovery, would reverse banding with a heavier load be a better option for me? That way the weight deloads at the bottom, is about my daily max training weight in the mid portion, and is heavier at the lockout where I am strongest? Experimenting this way felt amazing. I felt seriously powerful with the crazy acceleration, and reverse band front squatting felt so good to my back.
Something like adding 20-50lbs more to the bar than I would normally do for upper body lifts and 50-80lbs more for lower body lifts? Or in your experience, does reverse banding with a heavier load not really work that well?

I am currently training twice a day (sled work in the evening), 7 days a week, and would like to keep it that way if possible. I love training frequently.[/quote]

I like reverse band…

… to get used to holding heavier loads (at the top you are pretty much holding up the whole weight)

… as a deload as it is much less traumatic than even regular lifting because the bands decrease the eccentric stress a lot … so it causes less trauma and inflamation

… to continue lifting when you are a bit nicked up… those with some minor shoulder issues will find that they can continue to press when using the reverse band set-up

But I find that reverse bands aren’t as effective as bottom bands or even regular lifting to build muscle size and whole body movement strength.

Bottom bands are a very powerful method to gain both size and strength, but they shouldn’t be used for more than 2 weeks in a row.

So…

Best results = bottom bands

But you can only use it for a short period of time

The reverse bands are to be used as a deload between periods of stress, to continue training when slightly injured or in the week prior to a test, both to get used to heavy weights while you are diminishing inflamation. [/quote]
Awesome. Thank you for all the info, CT!

Keep on lifting!
Colby

[LoRez]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
But I find that reverse bands aren’t as effective as bottom bands or even regular lifting to build muscle size and whole body movement strength.

Bottom bands are a very powerful method to gain both size and strength, but they shouldn’t be used for more than 2 weeks in a row.[/quote]

While you’re on the topic… just wondering your thoughts on chains, both with respect to effectiveness and how long to use them?

I’ve used them two ways. For pressing, I found it to help “teach” explosiveness, but only used them for a session or two to really grasp the concept. For pulling (mat pulls), I find it helps stress the body toward the end of the ROM a lot better because of my leverages, and feels like a more complete movement.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
But I find that reverse bands aren’t as effective as bottom bands or even regular lifting to build muscle size and whole body movement strength.

Bottom bands are a very powerful method to gain both size and strength, but they shouldn’t be used for more than 2 weeks in a row.[/quote]

While you’re on the topic… just wondering your thoughts on chains, both with respect to effectiveness and how long to use them?

I’ve used them two ways. For pressing, I found it to help “teach” explosiveness, but only used them for a session or two to really grasp the concept. For pulling (mat pulls), I find it helps stress the body toward the end of the ROM a lot better because of my leverages, and feels like a more complete movement.[/quote]

I love chains. By far my favorite training tool. Right now I’m using it on all my squats, except when I test my max.

What I like with chains specifically for the squat is that they help you become much more solid under a heavy weight. That’s because you have a lot of weight at the top and because of the instability when you walk out. Ever since I started squatting a lot with chains, even my max attempts (without chains) feel light.

I also like it because it helps strengthen the second half of the range of motion, which is an important range of motion for the olympic lifts (that the portion where you produce power when cleaning, snatching or jerking). Ever since I started squatting with chains my behind the neck push press went up 40lbs (in 3 weeks) without training it much.

Chains can be used for longer than bottom bands because, even though they are adding resistance, they aren’t trying to throw you down… the bands are trying to accelerate you downwards, just trying to brake that causes a lot of strain on the eccentric portion. You don’t have that with chains.

[germanicus]

I’ve been using bands for years and I think they are great–and I will continue to use them. I use them by themselves–good accessary work and hooked to barbells especially for overhead pressing. My Indigo log is pretty long, but I’ve been experimenting lately with bands doing Ben Bruno’s “elevator reps.” If interested, check out my Indigo log for this month–will save you having to wade through over 20 pages of log.

Yes, as Christian says, there is more soreness but perhaps my body is used to bands, but I have no problem whatsoever using them for for extended periods of time. And I’m an old fart to top it off. I will say this, I’ve never used reverse band set ups mainly because the gym I train at has no power rack. I can’t give any advice on those.

There is also a web site that is devoted entirely to band training. I’m also a computer idiot otherwise I’d provide a link. Try Googling resistance band training Dave Schultz --he’s the guy running the web site.

Hope this helps.

[Basara187]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
But I find that reverse bands aren’t as effective as bottom bands or even regular lifting to build muscle size and whole body movement strength.

Bottom bands are a very powerful method to gain both size and strength, but they shouldn’t be used for more than 2 weeks in a row.[/quote]

While you’re on the topic… just wondering your thoughts on chains, both with respect to effectiveness and how long to use them?

I’ve used them two ways. For pressing, I found it to help “teach” explosiveness, but only used them for a session or two to really grasp the concept. For pulling (mat pulls), I find it helps stress the body toward the end of the ROM a lot better because of my leverages, and feels like a more complete movement.[/quote]

I love chains. By far my favorite training tool. Right now I’m using it on all my squats, except when I test my max.

What I like with chains specifically for the squat is that they help you become much more solid under a heavy weight. That’s because you have a lot of weight at the top and because of the instability when you walk out. Ever since I started squatting a lot with chains, even my max attempts (without chains) feel light.

I also like it because it helps strengthen the second half of the range of motion, which is an important range of motion for the olympic lifts (that the portion where you produce power when cleaning, snatching or jerking). Ever since I started squatting with chains my behind the neck push press went up 40lbs (in 3 weeks) without training it much.

Chains can be used for longer than bottom bands because, even though they are adding resistance, they aren’t trying to throw you down… the bands are trying to accelerate you downwards, just trying to brake that causes a lot of strain on the eccentric portion. You don’t have that with chains.[/quote] CT, hope this is not too broad of a question (probably is), but if you had to recommend one set of chains to go with, how heavy would you prefer them to be for best progression? Do different chain weights work best for different goals (hypertrophy, strength, endurance, etc) or do the same rules apply for all with or without the chains? I like using your method of gradually adding 5-10lbs to the bar for regular upper body lifts and 10-20lbs for regular lower body lifts, but would that differ when training with chains/bands, or is it the same idea of just changing the plates with whatever chain that’s attached? Thanks!

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]Basara187 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
But I find that reverse bands aren’t as effective as bottom bands or even regular lifting to build muscle size and whole body movement strength.

Bottom bands are a very powerful method to gain both size and strength, but they shouldn’t be used for more than 2 weeks in a row.[/quote]

While you’re on the topic… just wondering your thoughts on chains, both with respect to effectiveness and how long to use them?

I’ve used them two ways. For pressing, I found it to help “teach” explosiveness, but only used them for a session or two to really grasp the concept. For pulling (mat pulls), I find it helps stress the body toward the end of the ROM a lot better because of my leverages, and feels like a more complete movement.[/quote]

I love chains. By far my favorite training tool. Right now I’m using it on all my squats, except when I test my max.

What I like with chains specifically for the squat is that they help you become much more solid under a heavy weight. That’s because you have a lot of weight at the top and because of the instability when you walk out. Ever since I started squatting a lot with chains, even my max attempts (without chains) feel light.

I also like it because it helps strengthen the second half of the range of motion, which is an important range of motion for the olympic lifts (that the portion where you produce power when cleaning, snatching or jerking). Ever since I started squatting with chains my behind the neck push press went up 40lbs (in 3 weeks) without training it much.

Chains can be used for longer than bottom bands because, even though they are adding resistance, they aren’t trying to throw you down… the bands are trying to accelerate you downwards, just trying to brake that causes a lot of strain on the eccentric portion. You don’t have that with chains.[/quote] CT, hope this is not too broad of a question (probably is), but if you had to recommend one set of chains to go with, how heavy would you prefer them to be for best progression? Do different chain weights work best for different goals (hypertrophy, strength, endurance, etc) or do the same rules apply for all with or without the chains? I like using your method of gradually adding 5-10lbs to the bar for regular upper body lifts and 10-20lbs for regular lower body lifts, but would that differ when training with chains/bands, or is it the same idea of just changing the plates with whatever chain that’s attached? Thanks!
[/quote]

The chains need to be built for lifting. Hanging them the proper way and having them the proper length is VERY important, which is why you should buy chains specifically designed for lifting (from Elitefts for example).

For example the chains have to be set in such a way that at the top you have a few links on the floor and at the bottom all the chains are on the floor (total deload).

I use 50lbs of chains per side. 25lbs per side work if the lift you use it on is less than 275lbs.

And you aren’t really replacing the weight by chains. For example if you put 50lbs of chains per side (100lbs total) you do not reduce the bar weight by 100lbs. The role of the chains is to overload the entire movement, if you take off too much bar weight, the movement becomes unloaded at the bottom.

For example 2 weeks ago I used 385 with 100lbs of chains and my top squat (without chains) at the moment was 450… this week I used 425 with 100lbs of chains and i squatted 470lbs without chains.

So in the first case my bar weight was 85% and the combined top weight was 108%

In the second case my bar weight was 90% and the combined top weight was 111%

Obviously that was done for sets of one, but the same ratio would work for multiple reps, understanding that each rep with chains will create more fatigue.

If using 50lbs of chains per side (2 sets of chains per side) then I would suggest that you use a bar weight of 80% of the weight you would normally use for the prescribed number of reps.

BUT the feeling is weird at first, so I suggest starting more conservative until you get used to the chains.

[LoRez]

If you want to go the DIY route with chains, I looked into it awhile ago.

[quote]I also bought chains. 5/8" powerlifting chains weigh somewhere between 3.6 and 3.9 pounds per foot; they also cost over $12 a foot if you buy from Fastenal, which seems to be the only game in town around here for anything that size.

So I doubled 3/8" chains which run about 1.5 pounds a foot (or 3, doubled) and used 5/16" chains as my loading chains. Heavy chains are 5.5 feet long, loading chains are 6.5. Still pretty expensive; cost $82 for the heavy chains and something like $22 for the loading chains. Probably another $15 or so for the 6 carabiners, but there’s cheaper options than what I did, and I already had those on hand for other reasons.

Technically, I could add some 1/4" chains to actually match the 5/8" powerlifting weight if I wanted, since they add something like .66lbs per foot. [/quote]

If you wanted to be roughly equivalent to 5/8" powerlifting chains, you can group 2 3/8" chains and a 1/4" chain together. Just clip a carabiner through the middle of all of them, and then hook your loading chains into that.

[LoRez]

Also… I’ll have to try that with the squat. I don’t think I ever tried using chains on them.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Also… I’ll have to try that with the squat. I don’t think I ever tried using chains on them.[/quote]

You have to use some smaller chains to hang it from the bar when doing squats (you want the whole pack of chains on the floor in the bottom position and one or two links on the floor at the top). I haven’t measured it, but it’s something like 20"… I’ll take a picture tomorrow.

[Basara187]

Good stuff guys!

[quote]LoRez wrote:
If you want to go the DIY route with chains, I looked into it awhile ago.

[quote]I also bought chains. 5/8" powerlifting chains weigh somewhere between 3.6 and 3.9 pounds per foot; they also cost over $12 a foot if you buy from Fastenal, which seems to be the only game in town around here for anything that size.

So I doubled 3/8" chains which run about 1.5 pounds a foot (or 3, doubled) and used 5/16" chains as my loading chains. Heavy chains are 5.5 feet long, loading chains are 6.5. Still pretty expensive; cost $82 for the heavy chains and something like $22 for the loading chains. Probably another $15 or so for the 6 carabiners, but there’s cheaper options than what I did, and I already had those on hand for other reasons.

Technically, I could add some 1/4" chains to actually match the 5/8" powerlifting weight if I wanted, since they add something like .66lbs per foot. [/quote]

If you wanted to be roughly equivalent to 5/8" powerlifting chains, you can group 2 3/8" chains and a 1/4" chain together. Just clip a carabiner through the middle of all of them, and then hook your loading chains into that.[/quote]
Have you yourself used this setup and if so do you like it or had any problems? I imagine it could get very cluttered up or have you not had that happen?

[LoRez]

[quote]Basara187 wrote:
Have you yourself used this setup and if so do you like it or had any problems? I imagine it could get very cluttered up or have you not had that happen?[/quote]

I haven’t had any trouble with things getting cluttered (I just use the 2 3/8" chains clipped together, not the additional 1/4" chain). It’s worked well draped over the bar for mat pulls.

[Basara187]

I found a place here locally that sold me 5/8 chain for $3.50 a foot and got 2 pieces of five foot chain today, I was wondering if it would even be worth getting 2 more, or would that just be overkill? By that I mean, wouldn’t it create a major imbalance in strength putting double load of chain in the top half/mid range positions and then having a complete deload in the bottom half/stretched position?

[LoRez]

[quote]Basara187 wrote:
I found a place here locally that sold me 5/8 chain for $3.50 a foot and got 2 pieces of five foot chain today, I was wondering if it would even be worth getting 2 more, or would that just be overkill? By that I mean, wouldn’t it create a major imbalance in strength putting double load of chain in the top half/mid range positions and then having a complete deload in the bottom half/stretched position?[/quote]

Eh, you may want it. It’s all a matter of manipulating the percent of the weight that’s on the chain versus the percent that’s on the bar.

I.e., if you’re bench pressing, you may only use one pair of chains per side; if you’re deadlifting you may want want two. In both cases, 10% of the weight at the top may be from chains.

It’s kind of like asking the question of “do I need to buy another pair of 45s, or do I have enough?”. It really just depends on how strong you are and how you plan to use them.

[LoRez]

Also, that’s a really good deal.

[Basara187]

Thanks for the quick reply LoRez, yeah I was shocked at that price. I just don’t want to develop weakness in the bottom half/stretched position of a full lift without the chains.

40lbs (1 set of chains) in the top/mid range is not as big a gap differential compared to say 80lbs (2 sets of chains), wouldn’t that just make the full lift (without chains) a lot harder after when you reach that bottom half that would normally be completely deloaded of 80lbs using chains? I can see a big benefit of adding more than 1 set of chains to the barbell for injury purposes and to challenge stability with more chains swinging around, but otherwise, I’m not too sure?