Professor X: A Request

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, there is no way in hell I would even try to train back with shoulders. That would take me two hours or more and would decrease the intensity for one of those muscle groups.[/quote]

Yeah well, not easy to do for guys past the intermediate stage… But for beginners and guys who are still using mostly 2 or so main movements per bodypart, or guys who generally train with higher frequency and thus lower volume per session, it’s quite doable…

At some point though, even overhead presses take so much out of you that your back work afterwards may suffer…

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
Hey prof,

Have you ever considered training your bodyparts 2x a week?

I’ve heard a few pro’s say that bodyparts grow faster only if you don’t end up beating yourself into the ground… As a mortal, you’ll have to reorganize your training some, and not everyone likes training everything twice a week either. Higher frequency is also less joint/tendon-friendly, as they have little metabolism to speak of and need time to recuperate… And even longer to adapt. You can train a muscle 6-7 times a week if you really want to and go about it the right way, but your supporting structure will eventually give. when they train it 2x a week and ronnie coleman did it for quite a while.

I’d try it myself but I don’t know how i’d feel training two muscle groups in the same day, for instance - back & shoulders.

He trained biceps multiple times a week at first, then chest, now(if he still does it) shoulders.

Whatever he wants to/wanted to emphasize, but not the whole body at once like Ronnie does/did.
(you can do everything twice a week, but you’ll need time off more often and chances are you won’t be able to use a routine like the one Ronnie followed/is following. 2 exercises per major muscle-group, one for calves, hams, quads or so would be a better idea for a regular trainee if you wanted to follow such a regimen. Ronnie basically just groups his regular sessions together so that he can do them all in 3 days instead of 6, but he still does 3-5 exercises per bodypart and his sessions are very long.
He does a 4-way leading up to contests with regular frequency, his off-season routine was/is:
1 - Chest, Tris
2 - Legs
3 - Back, Bis, Delts
He had slightly different workouts for the first 3 days of the week vs. the other 3.

If you want to train that way, try
1- chest, back
2- legs, abs
3- delts, arms, order depends on exercise selection though)
or alternatively:
1- chest, bis, tris
2- legs, abs
3- delts, back

for example… That’s one of yates’ splits, but he didn’t train for 6 days straight…)

FWIW:
Delts before back on the same day works fine for me… Does take longer than the usual single bodypart though, of course. I wouldn’t train them after back on the same day, mind you.
You will be shot after heavy back work (or should be, at least) and won’t be able to do them justice, plus a tired upper back makes it impossible to keep a tight setup during overhead work.

My delt+back sessions usually looked something like

  • overhead press variant
  • lateral raise variant
  • pulldowns or rack pullups or whatever for backwidth
  • rack pulls with scapular retraction after each lockout (hard to do shrugs after these, so I usually skipped them. But you can throw some in at the end if you want) OR some sort of row, krocs or yates’ or t-bars…
    (and here either shrugs if I did rows instead of rack pulls, and/or inverted rows or face pulls and such for shoulder health maybe, or v-handle rows if I wanted to focus a little more on the lats, but I would do them before rack pulls if those were also done on the same day)

(Sorry for the hijack, X)
[/quote]

Thanks also for this detailed response Ceph.

I’ve been trying to look up ronnie’s training lately, I watched the whole relentless dvd (highly recommend it). Maybe he trained delts/back together in one of his other dvd’s?

[quote]Goodfellow wrote:

Thanks also for this detailed response Ceph.

I’ve been trying to look up ronnie’s training lately, I watched the whole relentless dvd (highly recommend it). Maybe he trained delts/back together in one of his other dvd’s?
[/quote]

No, his DVD’s were all shot at the beginning of him prepping for his shows (or in the middle of prep in some cases maybe).

As I mentioned above, he uses a 4-way with less frequency leading up to shows, rather than his 3-way over 6 days which he used in the off-season.

(he did delts, traps… legs… back, bis… chest, tris… But I forgot the exact order of the days… I don’t like training back before chest as that makes it difficult to keep your setup tight on the bench and the barpath goes to hell in my case due to tired lats…)

[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Also, there is no way in hell I would even try to train back with shoulders. That would take me two hours or more and would decrease the intensity for one of those muscle groups.

What about training one in the morning and one later in the day? (if you had the time ofc)

Thanks for the replies prof.[/quote]

I still wouldn’t. If I were going to do two muscle groups in a day, it would be one large muscle group and one small, not two large muscle groups that take that much out of you to train effectively.

I don’t know how you train, but I know that I am ready to pass the fuck out after training my back. the same goes for shoulders. I would NOT go to the gym to do back later in the day on the same day I did shoulders.

Maybe biceps or triceps.

hey prof, you told me to read more, so i am reading all of this, great information… basically what do you think of this… its almost the same as what you posted in the first page, but here it is

question #1 what do you think of this routine that i am doing at the moment

monday - chest/triceps/cardio
tuesday - legs/cardio
wednesday - back/cardio
thursday - shoulders/cardio
friday - biceps/cardio
saturday - off/cardio
sunday - off/cardio

now i don’t always do cardio, i just throw it in just because i do it SOMETIMES but not always… i am not very consistent with my cardio…

also, question #2 off-days

do you ever have those days where you throw a weight up and it just feels like a million pounds? but then the next week you will do the same weight, and you will be pushing it like a feather? what usually causes this, im thinking an overtrained or… NOT recovered muscle… but i am not sure, what would be the best thing to do when that muscle group being worked that day doesn’t feel “RIGHT” ?

[quote]Joelsopher wrote:
hey prof, you told me to read more, so i am reading all of this, great information… basically what do you think of this… its almost the same as what you posted in the first page, but here it is

question #1 what do you think of this routine that i am doing at the moment

monday - chest/triceps/cardio
tuesday - legs/cardio
wednesday - back/cardio
thursday - shoulders/cardio
friday - biceps/cardio
saturday - off/cardio
sunday - off/cardio

now i don’t always do cardio, i just throw it in just because i do it SOMETIMES but not always… i am not very consistent with my cardio…

also, question #2 off-days

do you ever have those days where you throw a weight up and it just feels like a million pounds? but then the next week you will do the same weight, and you will be pushing it like a feather? what usually causes this, im thinking an overtrained or… NOT recovered muscle… but i am not sure, what would be the best thing to do when that muscle group being worked that day doesn’t feel “RIGHT” ?[/quote]

1- Damn that’s a lot of cardio. I know you said you don’t always do it, but hopefully you aren’t going all out much at all like that unless the goal is to lose more than 20lbs.

Cardio itself = good

Cardio done every day just to be doing it = reTarted

2- That does not equal overtraining. Your body is a very complex machine and there will be days for EVERYONE where they can’t lift as much as they did last week. I have also had days where I go in and literally blow the fucking doors off of my previous max weight. There are too many variables involved from hormonal flux to age to food intake to try to nail down the reason as “overtraining”.

In fact, unless you are an advanced lifter or training for a competition of some sort, most of you need to throw this term out of your vocabulary. Most of the people here are NOT training so hard they are at risk of “overtraining”. They may be doing dumb shit like not eating enough and then trying to stay in the gym too long…but that is called “overstupidity” and has little to do with training itself.

Prof X. Do you think high frequency training has it’s place for someone trying to establish a good base of lean mass? Thanks.

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Prof X. Do you think high frequency training has it’s place for someone trying to establish a good base of lean mass? Thanks.[/quote]

What do you mean by “high frequency training”? I have trained at least 5 days a week from the very beginning and that worked just fine. If I am misunderstanding you, let me know what you mean.

Professor,

In the T-cell discussion about grocery shopping, you mentioned in one post:

Then in another post further down the page, you commented:

A few questions:

  1. In the first quote, is the “progress” you’re talking about defined as rate of adding muscle? In other words, displacing other meats with steaks increased the rate at which you were able to add muscle? I’m currently eating mostly chicken with 7-8 oz of steak a day. I’m wondering if it pays for me to try upping the beef intake a bit.

  2. From your other posts in T-cell, I gather you’re still in a “cutting” phase. However based on the second quote above, it sounds like you’ve done a good job holding on to muscle and losing fat. Can you talk a little about the approach you’re using? Are you carb and calorie cycling, did you change the types of meat you’re eating at all or just drop carbs?

  3. I also thought I read in another post that you’ve had to drop cardio because of a work schedule change. Can you comment on how this has impacted your progress or how you’ve been able to work around it (dropping cals, shorter rest sets on some weight training days, etc)?

I don’t understand how this thread is 27 pages long…

Prof X, no offense, but it appears your approach is so simple and straight forward.

Like most things in life it can be broken down into three easy steps:

1)Lift heavy weights.
2)Eat some steaks and plenty of protein.
3)Progressively add more weight.

Don’t make it anymore complicated than that. After reading some of these posts, it seems like a lot of people are clearly over thinking this shit.

[quote]Chi-Towns-Finest wrote:
I don’t understand how this thread is 27 pages long…

Prof X, no offense, but it appears your approach is so simple and straight forward.

Like most things in life it can be broken down into three easy steps:

1)Lift heavy weights.
2)Eat some steaks and plenty of protein.
3)Progressively add more weight.

Don’t make it anymore complicated than that. After reading some of these posts, it seems like a lot of people are clearly over thinking this shit.
[/quote]

They have been for years. They also don’t seem to be able to notice that the biggest people on this site are the ones who do NOT complicate things like this.

You would think that someone who actually wanted to succeed would quit following the least developed people here and figure that out on their own.

I’ve been on this site for 9 years and like predicted, no one who has made this some debate about pure theory has made the same progress as those who understand the basics and simply get to work.

However, look at how some of these same people argue.

There are several posters now in the T-Cell who put most of the people here to shame…and their approach to training isn’t that dissimilar.

A truly smart person would pick up on that…but clearly many of these people are simply “too smart” for that.

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Professor,

In the T-cell discussion about grocery shopping, you mentioned in one post:

First, I buy lean cuts and that includes New York strip steak (I just bought 15lbs or more of that). Second, more goes into building muscle than just protein. I can literally see and tell the difference in progress since getting most of my meals from steaks.

Then in another post further down the page, you commented:

There is a big difference in the way I look right now as opposed to this time last year and it has more to do with body comp than drastic body weight changes. I am still within 5lbs of where I was at this time last year.

A few questions:

  1. In the first quote, is the “progress” you’re talking about defined as rate of adding muscle? In other words, displacing other meats with steaks increased the rate at which you were able to add muscle? I’m currently eating mostly chicken with 7-8 oz of steak a day. I’m wondering if it pays for me to try upping the beef intake a bit. [/quote]

Dude, I weigh over 280lbs right now. It takes a lot of food for me to just maintain my weight. What works for me right now might not have worked when I was much smaller. Eating like that works for me now because it gives me enough calories while also still allowing me to eat fairly clean. I was not making a recommendation for all people to start eating as much steak as I do.

I am not trying to be short with you, but I don’t think this is understood. If I tried to simply eat chicken breasts and rice at this size, I might as well say good bye to my biceps because I can’t get down enough chicken without gagging to match the cals and protein I get from 3lbs of steak or more.

[quote]

  1. From your other posts in T-cell, I gather you’re still in a “cutting” phase. However based on the second quote above, it sounds like you’ve done a good job holding on to muscle and losing fat. Can you talk a little about the approach you’re using? Are you carb and calorie cycling, did you change the types of meat you’re eating at all or just drop carbs?[/quote]

I am currently holding my weight. I will probably return to dropping more in about 2 weeks.

My approach is to eat fairly clean 5-6 days a week with one cheat meal on thursday and Sunday as a cheat day. My diet is not calculated out and there are no specifics aside from the fact that I eat pretty much the same day to day. You are making this more complicated than I do.

[quote]

  1. I also thought I read in another post that you’ve had to drop cardio because of a work schedule change. Can you comment on how this has impacted your progress or how you’ve been able to work around it (dropping cals, shorter rest sets on some weight training days, etc)?[/quote]

I just don’t do cardio if I can’t fit it in. I don’t personally believe it is necessary until you get closer to your goal as far as leanness. Your diet should be creating most of the change anyway.

I am not on some all out definition kick. I am just leaning up and taking my time doing so. I am in no rush and personally am pretty happy with how I look right now short of thinking I need to drop maybe 20lbs.

ive begun to like professor X :P…

just sayin… (no homo)

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, there is no way in hell I would even try to train back with shoulders. That would take me two hours or more and would decrease the intensity for one of those muscle groups.[/quote]

I have this freakin’ problem. I don’t know how the fuck many people can put back with another muscle in the day. I love to train traps, but I’ve had a hard time putting a decent trap workout after shoulders and after back. In Victor Martinez back workout I came with the idea of doing it like him, splitting half of the trap workout with back and the other with shoulders.

But I just keep thinking “come on…”

[quote]Joelsopher wrote:
just sayin… (no homo)[/quote]

It’s always homo when we’re talking about the Professor.

Jesus X, you are at 280 right now? Damn! I recall when I was at this size I didn’t feel well, it was uncomfortable for me to move. Are you finding this at all? Granted, when I was 280, I was probably not as muscular as you are now.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ds1973 wrote:

  1. In the first quote, is the “progress” you’re talking about defined as rate of adding muscle? In other words, displacing other meats with steaks increased the rate at which you were able to add muscle? I’m currently eating mostly chicken with 7-8 oz of steak a day. I’m wondering if it pays for me to try upping the beef intake a bit.

Dude, I weigh over 280lbs right now. It takes a lot of food for me to just maintain my weight. What works for me right now might not have worked when I was much smaller. Eating like that works for me now because it gives me enough calories while also still allowing me to eat fairly clean. I was not making a recommendation for all people to start eating as much steak as I do.

I am not trying to be short with you, but I don’t think this is understood. If I tried to simply eat chicken breasts and rice at this size, I might as well say good bye to my biceps because I can’t get down enough chicken without gagging to match the cals and protein I get from 3lbs of steak or more. [/quote]

No, I get it. You need some good calorie dense food in there. I had forgotten about the shear calories you need.

Thanks for the straight answers. I do over analyze stuff sometimes (can you blame me, I’m an R&D engineer) but I also go into the gym and try things out or make some changes to my diet and see what happens (I’m also an experimentalist).

[quote]ds1973 wrote:No, I get it. You need some good calorie dense food in there. I had forgotten about the shear calories you need.

Thanks for the straight answers. I do over analyze stuff sometimes (can you blame me, I’m an R&D engineer) but I also go into the gym and try things out or make some changes to my diet and see what happens (I’m also an experimentalist).[/quote]

I hope you know I wasn’t trying to single you out with my comment – I just scrolled through a few pages of questions and was speaking generally.

Hey X,

What are your thoughts on CT’s peri-nutrition regimen?

2 Alpha GPC 90 min before W
2 FINiBARs 40 min before W
2 scoops of SWF 30 min before W
2 scoops of Recovery 15 min before W
20 g of Casein Hydrolysate during W
Another 20 g of CH 60 min after W
Solid meal 90 min after W

[quote]tomkade wrote:
Hey X,

What are your thoughts on CT’s peri-nutrition regimen?

2 Alpha GPC 90 min before W
2 FINiBARs 40 min before W
2 scoops of SWF 30 min before W
2 scoops of Recovery 15 min before W
20 g of Casein Hydrolysate during W
Another 20 g of CH 60 min after W
Solid meal 90 min after W[/quote]

That there may be 3 people on this entire site with the development level, drive or discipline to even be worried about that to any significant degree.

The majority of the people on this site see “16” arms" as some distant goal. Why would someone like that need to be worried about this? Hell, most of the people even claiming development bigger than that aren’t really that muscular.

If this site were filled with people who had built above average physiques, who did NOT make claims of overtraining or being “hardgainers” all of the time, and who were at a stage of development where they were ready to take it to the next level close to competition, THEN I could see more people being concerned about how that much attention to supplements could affect their progress.

Unfortunately, they allowed this site to be taken over by people who actually seem to think big muscles make you look like a gorilla…so they should be avoided.