[quote]apwsearch wrote:
I don’t buy that, either. Look at what some of these strongmen are using for Farmer’s walks. This is a much more taxing activity than a single rep deadlift.
There are several strongmen I know personally who spend several hours a week training their grip.
In fact, I have one of their written programs on my PC right now. It requires 3.5 hours a week just focusing on grip.
With the right coaching, you are completely unable to convince me that a DL specialist could not develop the grip strength needed to pull whatever they were capable of.
[/quote]
Well, that’s typically the case. Bolton missed a WR attempt in the past year due to grip. Note the example above of the guy pulling 881 in competition and 881x4 with straps.
And training for strongman grip is a bit different. Grip does limit some athletes, especially those with smaller hands. Remember, the guys pulling 900+ are very thick people and more often than not have bear paws for hands. Thick hands don’t wrap around the bar as far.
I’m not making excuses at all, as grip is a limiting factor for most guys at that level, and a lot of them work the hell out of their grip.
[quote]MikeShank wrote:
lavi, the 165lb record is held by none other than equipment manufactioner extrodinaire, (John) Inzer. He pulled an amazing 780, way back in sept. of 95. It has been over 9 and 1/2 years and nobody has come 53lbs of him within the last 3 years.
Incidently, 22 of the top 25 deadlifts in that weight class occured before 2002. Much greater disparity than the upper weights.[/quote]
OK, well Bolton is not a DL specialist. He is a powerlifter with a strong DL.
The original question is why has the increase in bench and squat outpaced the DL? I just don’t see grip as a valid reason, all things being equal.
This is an off handed example, but I train with a 181 that has @ 650# pull , and we have a 220 with a 750+ pull. Both of them are holding onto 3.5 times their bodyweight. Neither of them have particularly large hands. Grip is never a factor for either one of them. Jenn Maile pulls 400 at 105.
So you are going to tell that it is outside the realm of possibility for a 275+++ pound man to hold onto 900+ and that this is what has kept the DL numbers from rising.
Give me a break. It’s b/c nobody gets 200#'s out of a DL suit.
scott613: I hear your argument about the different federations and I agree with you that choosing one that meets your needs is a viable solution. I guess what really chaps my ass is when “world records” are set but are not listed in the context of the specific federation in which they were set. The lifts are treated as carpet statement world records. For example:
I would find Dave Pass’s 1030lb+ squat from almost 20 years ago much more impressive than mike millers recent 1200lb squat. I have seen footage of the two and not only is Dave’s squat slightly deeper, he did so with a leather weight belt, some shitty knee wraps, and a wrestling singlet. Millers equipment looked like it could have stopped a bullet, it was so thick.
It is also a personal preference since since Dave looked like he could of been a middle linebacker, a multi directional functional athlete. Mike Miller seriously looks like a human dump truck, 2 tons of solid steel and a whole heap of one directional horsepower.
On another note, recently when travis mash had his monster 2400lbs+ day, he was creditted by a lot of people including PLUSA as having “broke coans record”. Coan has stated publicly that while he congratulates travis on his accomplishment, nobody broke his record. Different federation, different rules, much different equipment was the exact quote that I think coan said.
On a different note the highest deadlift every recorded, at least according to glossbrenner is by Andy Bolton with a 932pull back in march of 2003. Considering that the bench record has been broken more than a dozen times since then and the deadlift has remained relatively untouched, I would guess that to be more evidence toward the dead’s lack of growth.
well they also have push oull meets where you only bench and dead. and while i think gene is a simply awsome man to bench 1005 but it did take 4 people to put his shirt on. he is still amazing. but i as well as alot of people are far more inpressed by mendy. he has the biggest raw and one of the biggest shirted benches. plus he doesnt have the huge gut to shorten his stroke on the bench. i am still inpressed by huge lifts with gear. but there is just something much more inpressive about a guy in nothing but a t-shirt hitting a big lift. like tank abot doing a easy 600 with no wrist wraps or t wraps or belt. chabot hitting it for reps. watching that gets me way more pumped.
[quote]sensless wrote:
I think that 17% of the best lifts occurring in the past 3 years is phenomenal since 3 years doesn’t account for 17% of the total time that is being used for the best lifts.
Regards,
Sensless[/quote]
Bingo. I thought you were gonna say that only something like 3% of the best DLs have come since 2002. 17% of the best pulls in probably - what? 4.5, 6% of the years is damn impressive. Now, why is the progressing quickly, but not AS quickly as the bench and the squat? I’d say the reason is threefold. In ascending order:
the psychological barrier. Most people have heard the story about how once bannister broke the 4 minute mark at least one other guy replicated the feat very soon thereafter. And I know there was some other arbitrary “limit” on the amount that a human being could clean, but once it was broken, again the feat was replicated relatively soon. There is a big difference between BELIEVING that a 1000 lb DL is possible and actually KNOWING EMPIRICALLY (whether through video or first hand knowledge) that is can/has been done.
Most of the most impressive athletic feats have occurred realtively recently. Better training, equipment (you think that the shoes and spikes a sprinter wears arent equipment, equipment that can and is being improved upon? nonsense) How many Olympic records have stood for 100 years? 50? Heck, if WADA would just go away and acknowledge reality, you’d probably see a lot more throwers replicating the East Germans of 25 years ago
Of COURSE the gear comes into play! Bench shirts, squat suits are better than they were even 10 years ago. DL suits, not really. I dont think this is a bad thing at all, just reality.
somebody mentioned more efficient use of the stretch-shortening cycle with the squat and the bench, i think there’s something to that…
I gotta stop typing these long -ass responses so late at night, my arguments lose coherence…
[quote]relentlessfury wrote:
well they also have push oull meets where you only bench and dead. and while i think gene is a simply awsome man to bench 1005 but it did take 4 people to put his shirt on. [/quote]1) proof and 2) who cares, everyone can get the shirt, not everyone can do the lift
[quote] plus he doesnt have the huge gut to shorten his stroke on the bench.[/quote]What the fuck is the point of this? there is no law against having a short ROM, what are you going to do yet, bitch about dwarfs havng an unfair advantage?
That tank abbot bench was the worst piece of shit on the planet.
Chabot was better, but then again, where is he now.
There’s a video of Tank Abbot benching 600 on irongame.com. It’s a pretty crappybench, though. He bounces the bar pretty good off his chest at the bottom.
[quote]apwsearch wrote:
The original question is why has the increase in bench and squat outpaced the DL? I just don’t see grip as a valid reason, all things being equal.[/quote]
Well then I apologize - I thought we were talking about the limiting factors of the deadlift. Right now it is grip for most of the big boys. Perhaps it is just strength for others, but when guys are doing nearly full range 1000+ pound pulls, then I’m thinking overall strength is not as important to push further.
These things really have no impact on the grip limit of a human in general, or one that really doesn’t have a longer hand with which to grip the bar. Thick hands = tougher time gripping the bar, which negates some of the strength advantages.
Also, some of the best grip work in the world has been performed by smaller people, so saying that immensely heavier guys should be able to hold onto 1200 or something is a little absurd.
I’m not saying that at all - just that that is what is holding back some of the guys now. Perhaps they will move beyond that and have other more significant weaknesses. And as I said above, this does not apply to ALL 900+ pullers, just a lot of them.
I never said anything to the contrary. This comment seems to have sprung from our miscommunication I noted earlier, as I am only referring to what is holding the deadlift back, and not in direct comparison to the bench.
And the WR deadlift (all weight classes) is held by a man who just pulled in a singlet and a belt.
I know my grip strength vs. body weight is out there, but as I was thinking about the issue at hand, I think it raises an interesting point.
Specifically, most people capable of an effective double overhand grip have large hands. I have been told that once double overhand is mastered, it becomes a matter of standing the pain, and you can hold onto just about anything.
Your comment about the WR being pulled in a belt and singlet brings me to another thought I had as I was reading through this.
Most of the strong pullers I know would never wear a DL suit with straps tight enough to make a difference b/c it changes the way they pull too much and they are completely unwilling to work with it b/c the first couple of times they do, it completely destroys their groove and pisses them off.
It makes me wonder what would happen if some of these guys spent as much time in a DL suit as some spend in a bench shirt.