Here’s another way of looking at it. What kind of numbers would you expect from someone with absolutely the best genetics for powerlifting but average (aka crappy) nutrition and training. I think these numbers would fall well short of Elite or even Class I for that matter.
[quote]pk0ad wrote:
Here’s another way of looking at it. What kind of numbers would you expect from someone with absolutely the best genetics for powerlifting but average (aka crappy) nutrition and training. I think these numbers would fall well short of Elite or even Class I for that matter.[/quote]
“absolutely the best genetics”?
With world class genetics I would say they would easily get to 600-400-700 even with average eating.
I talk to a young kid occasionally around 20 years old, 5’6 maybe 160lbs. Only ever see him do bench. He trains in the most illogical stupid way, but his bench is very good. I wouldn’t say he has world class genetics but they are definitely very good.
I think people are misunderstanding the question a bit. Is the average lifter gonna hit elite? Hell, no. Can the average lifter, genetically speaking, hit elite? Absolutely, imo. Has anyone with “average” genetics hit elite? Debatable.
Also of note, you may want to consider what effect genetics have on a lifters work ethic, planning/organization skills (to create and stick to a good training/diet plan), etc.
Of the elite level lifters with which I have trained there have always been a few things that they had in common. Those things were dedication, hard work and consistency. Of the people that I’ve trained with who had suboptimal totals there was definitely less motivation, less intense training sessions and less detail to programming which is ultimately what resulted in their sub par numbers. I absolutely agree that a lifter with average genetics can reach the elite level in powerlifting given the right diet, training, mindset and time.
fuck elite
I dont see how anyone would take “good genetics” as an insult or some kind of slam.
You can’t look into an alternate universe where someone instead had “bad genetics.”
Lol, honestly, whats so holy and golden about bad/dumb/untalented people working hard to get good at stuff.
Good genetics. Bad genetics. Hard work. Laziness. Its really just the end result that we’re looking at.
[quote]Loftearmen wrote:
Of the elite level lifters with which I have trained there have always been a few things that they had in common. Those things were dedication, hard work and consistency. Of the people that I’ve trained with who had suboptimal totals there was definitely less motivation, less intense training sessions and less detail to programming which is ultimately what resulted in their sub par numbers. I absolutely agree that a lifter with average genetics can reach the elite level in powerlifting given the right diet, training, mindset and time.[/quote]
Loftearmen is absolutely right. This is true in every sport where athletes compete at a high level. Putting in the time and effort can get you to the elite level or at least very close. I think work ethic is just as important as genetics. It’s usually the athletes that are gifted and are driven for greatness that will sit on top of the podium as champion. I wish I had the genetics lol. Oh well, it’ll just take a bit longer to reach elite.
For whatever it’s worth, I’ve been lifting a little a over 5 years including the I don’t know what hell I’m doing phase which lasted well over a year. Maybe 3 actually dedicated to powerlifting. My frame is small which I’m defining as small joints and bones for their length and I’m approaching 400, 300, 500. With any luck by Christmas and I’ll be 26 in October. If I can keep this up and don’t end up with a debilitating injury, I can see at least very close to masters if not surpassing it in the future.
The environment in which you train plays a big role. I definitely would not expect your average powerlifter, with optimal nutrition and so forth to total 1500 raw and without drugs in your average gym setting.
That element of camaraderie and competition plays a MASSIVE role in how far you get.
Put the average guy in a dedicated PL gym, with other strong lifters and that guy isn’t falling short of 1500 over a lifetime.
Putting aside the extraordinary who have a level of self drive beyond comprehension (who I would argue are not average to begin with).
Why do we keep putting aside the extraordinary and the super strong willed and all that? You can develop those things too.
And don’t fucking tell me that willpower is genetic.
[quote]hastalles wrote:
And don’t fucking tell me that willpower is genetic.[/quote]
Well, to an extent, it is. A quick google search ended up telling me that the brains of strong willed individuals are physically different in some areas than those with weak will power. Of course, neuroplasticity could very well be responsible for that. I’m looking for the actual article now.
That being said, environment is likely a much larger factor, one that can take many different routes.
[quote]DaveForner wrote:
[quote]hastalles wrote:
And don’t fucking tell me that willpower is genetic.[/quote]
Well, to an extent, it is. A quick google search ended up telling me that the brains of strong willed individuals are physically different in some areas than those with weak will power. Of course, neuroplasticity could very well be responsible for that. I’m looking for the actual article now.
That being said, environment is likely a much larger factor, one that can take many different routes.[/quote]
Right, even if you are born with a poorly developed “willpower-center” (though I doubt it’s called that - i’m just a sophomore psych major lol) with enough work you can improve it.
So maybe I didn’t choose the right words, but the conclusion is still the same. 
As to environment, I’ll jsut point to Kroc again. Your environment can certainly exert a huge force dragging you down. (or up, for that matter) But you don’t HAVE to succumb.
[quote]hastalles wrote:
As to environment, I’ll jsut point to Kroc again. Your environment can certainly exert a huge force dragging you down. (or up, for that matter) But you don’t HAVE to succumb.[/quote]
I like Matt K a lot.
But you need to get real with what you have said about him in this thread. The guy has multi squatted over 1000lbs and has an over 800lb DL. You cannot do that with average or below average genetics. This is shown by the fact a miniscule amount of PLs have done either. Barring the fact he is now pretty old and has a number of serious injuries, he probably could (maybe still will) have become an IFBB pro bodybuilder. Again, very few are capable of this.
He is also an ex-Marine. He does not have the average or below average mindset of the typical man.
By all means take inspiration from him, and mental strength can for sure be developed to a degree. But he is not average Joe by any means.
It is false to keep implying that everyone can reach for the stars and land on the Moon, when the facts and evidence say otherwise.
[quote]yolo84 wrote:
It is false to keep implying that everyone can reach for the stars and land on the Moon, when the facts and evidence say otherwise.[/quote]
Absolutely. You’re not gonna be the next Matt Kroc or Ed Coan or Kaz without a helping hand from fate.
But it depends on what reaching for the stars is for you. If you tell someone they aren’t going to be the strongest person in the world no matter what they do, then you’re fucking right. But if you tell someone they can’t at least total elite in powerlifting in their lifetime if they work hard enough, you’re fucking wrong. Even if you have interacted with THOUSANDS of lifters over the years (how old are you exactly?), how many of them were working hard enough? How many of them did you follow for 10 years to see if they made it? How many of them actually wanted to reach that goal? I think what you’re really saying is that you’ve only arbitrarily encountered a handful of people who have totaled that kind of weight. That doesn’t prove shit.
500/350/600 would be something all males of average build could reach. Past that, I’d start worrying about environment, will, dedication, nutrition, and training philosophy affecting your 600/400+/700, and then after that I think it has a lot to do with genetics and perhaps drugs if you want to squat a grand and pull 800.
Of course, if you’re not talking about “lifetime maximum” goals and just thinking where you could be at age 25, it’s very dependent on genetics and on how early you started training. Guys who squat 700 at age 20 have been training for a long time already and/or have amazing genetics/drugs. The dedication it takes is probably the most important factor overall though.
[quote]csulli wrote:
I think what you’re really saying is that you’ve only arbitrarily encountered a handful of people who have totaled that kind of weight. That doesn’t prove shit.[/quote]
Of course it fucking does! It’s real word experience against hypothetical BS.
If you have been in gyms multiple times a week for over a full decade and rarely see these lifts (from completely average sized drug free guys) then they are rare for a reason!
Honestly, you need to get real. Raw drug free average sized guys lifting 600-400-700 are very rare. This is such stereotypical internet nonsense.
A pretty clear analogy can be made with intelligence. You think if everyone works hard they can eventually study for a PhD in advanced Mathematics? Of course not!
It is such a stupid counter reaction to the Hardgainer argument. Anyone can work hard and become extremely advanced in anything (for you are basically discounting genetics), yet ALL of the evidence suggests otherwise.
Save me the “well what is advanced?” stuff - a 190lb guy drug free man pulling 700lbs is exceptionally rare, it is laughable to say EVERY man is capable of doing it. Just go look at Ben Rice, the guy has multiple records at 198 and I think he has only barely exceeded your average bro 1700lb total lol.
As far as I can tell from the OP, I don’t think most people are addressing the actual question for this thread.
If you have training, nutrition and environment at 100% optimal, and that optimality remained constant for an entire life of training, what could you expect to see (in terms of lifts) from the following groups:
-
People with shit genetics. So, if you had the absolute worst genetics for strength gain, but you had the best training, nutrition and environment, what kind of numbers would you put up?
-
People with the best genetics. So, if you had the absolute best genetics for strength gain, but you had the best training, nutrition and environment, what kind of numbers would you put up? This is likely the group that your world record holders (and I’m considering this actual world records, not world records in a certain fed) would fall into.
-
People with average genetics. So, if you had the “average” genetics for strength gain, but you had the best training, nutrition and environment, what kind of numbers would you put up? This would be the “average joe/bro/shmo” with the best training, nutrition and environment. Fully optimized variables (other than genetics), what sort of numbers? This is likely, in my opinion, where many top lifters in a country would fall. But not always.
No fucking shit Ben Rice’s lifts are awesome. Of course 1000 lb squat is nigh “impossible” to obtain. But it’s likely that if you optimized everything else, someone with “average” genetics could ACHIEVE, say, 500-300-600, or 600-400-700 (I doubt average genetics could get you this though). They aren’t AVERAGE lifts. They’re just lifts an AVERAGE genetic person could achieve if they optimized EVERYTHING ELSE.
As far as your “advanced mathematics” analogy, that’s ridiculous. For one, wtf is advanced mathematics? Everyone can get a PhD with a little hard work. Revolutionizing the field (and let’s be real, just because you have a PhD doesn’t mean you can provide revolutionizing, abstract thought) is different than being good at something.
EDIT: You’re name is yolo, I’m so getting trolled.
I feel this is relevant.
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
I think the biggest factor is training my ass of for almost 15 years straight. My 15th year aniversary with smashing fucking weights is this august. I am going to celebrate by continueing to do this for at least another 15 years. Natural bodybuilders who struggle to gain are either:
- on a terrible training program
- terrible with their nutrition
- both of those
- or just too young and inexperienced to get the gains they want.
There is a plethora of bullshit on the internet and that is all anyone reads anymore. I am a big fan of educating yourself. The problem is most sources of ‘education’ are selling heaping piles of bullshit with really no concern other than getting you hooked on something.
Here is the key, the ultimate secret to training for the gentically mal-gifted (like myself):
Work really fucking hard everyday. Talk to people stronger/bigger than you or people that have already attained the goals you have for yourself and start implementing some of the things they did to get there. Figure out what works, ditch the rest. Then, once you do those things for 10+ years then maybe there will be a hint of you taking a small step closer to you goal.
People can get on youtube, find guys their age and weight that genetic fucking anomalies, watch every vid they have on there, and then just feel terrible about themselves that thier gains arent as fast. Well, it won’t work like that for 99% of the population. All of these bright young stars of powerlifting we have had the last couple of years completely fizzle out before they do anything of value. It happens all the time. Some kid smashes 800 raw a meet then just disappears. Well, its the guys that have to get smarter to get stronger that stay around in the sport the longest. The guys that kinda sucked when they got started and got really fucking pissed off about it and decided to do something about it.
Anyway, got off on a little rant there. Sorry. The moral of the story:
If you really want these goals that you have set for yourself, you HAVE to do whatever it takes to get there. Usually, for guys like us and the 99% of the normal part of the human species, ‘whatever it takes to get there’ is actually however long it takes to get there.
I should write a fucking book. haha.
Hope this helped.[/quote]
[quote]yolo84 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
I think what you’re really saying is that you’ve only arbitrarily encountered a handful of people who have totaled that kind of weight. That doesn’t prove shit.[/quote]
Of course it fucking does! It’s real word experience against hypothetical BS.
If you have been in gyms multiple times a week for over a full decade and rarely see these lifts (from completely average sized drug free guys) then they are rare for a reason![/quote]
Yea they are rare aren’t they? And my whole message is that they aren’t rare because of their damn genetics. They’re rare because fucking hardly anybody wants to/works hard enough to get there. And seriously, how old are you? How much real world gym experience do you have?
[quote]yolo84 wrote:
Save me the “well what is advanced?” stuff - a 190lb guy drug free man pulling 700lbs is exceptionally rare, it is laughable to say EVERY man is capable of doing it. Just go look at Ben Rice, the guy has multiple records at 198 and I think he has only barely exceeded your average bro 1700lb total lol.
[/quote]
First of all, if you want to use a single number, use 1600. I gave a range of between 1500 and 1700, and you constantly chose the very top.
Second of all, I would say Big Ben has amazing genetics, because he got over 1700 IN HIS EARLY 20’s!!! He is in a rare and elite and exclusive club because of how hard he works at it, but I would say genetics come into play getting there that quickly. I stand by my statement that the “average bro” can get pretty close to 1700 total, but he will probably be in his mid fucking 30’s. By the time Ben Rice is in his mid 30’s what do you think his total will be? Fucking a lot better.
[quote]DaveForner wrote:
Everyone can get a PhD with a little hard work.[/quote]
LOL!!
The rest of your post wasn’t bad.