JohnU, Congratulations on your progress. It validates, in a very “real world” sort of way, our contentions that the pw period is crucial for growth and progress. Dont worry though, there are LOADS of studies to back it up too. There are several very crucial reasons for using the ingredients we chose (hydrolysate, the exact amino acids, the exact ratio of BCAA, and the proportions of carbs). My upcoming articles will further elaborate on these concepts. Oh yeah, and you did hit the nail on the head with the taste issue. I was gagging down my own home brew for a while before we got the Biotest prototype right. And let me tell you, life was all the sudden brighter! I swear Biotest’s flavoring guys put addictive substances in their products (ribose c, methoxy, grow, post-workout drink). Each time I try a new Biotest product, at first, the taste seems curious, then I get addicted to it. That’s exactly what happened with the PW drink. Sometimes now I actually crave it on the days I dont train. (For the conspiracy theorists, Im just kidding about the addictive substance hypothesis…it was a joke…next thing you know, Tim Patterson will be getting emails telling him that John said that Biotest laces their products with addicitive drugs!)
This is addressed to JOHN…you make a few good points that I want to address…First, Tim’s experience does seem sensationalized. But I assure you that he called me on the phone at 1:00 in the morning (eastern time) which would have been 10 or 11 mountain time (I think) to let me know what was happening. We had just both recieved the test batches for the new formula that day and he was taking it for a test drive that night after a leg workout. I wasnt training till the next day so I didnt try it that nite. Well, Im in bed dreaming about fitness chicks and all of the sudden my phone rings and Tim is describing his experience (sweat, blood flow, pump, etc.) I was freaking out because it was a better response than I expected. But Tim wasnt worried, he was…maybe elated was the word. Now, to be honest, my experience the next night wasnt as intense. The exact sensations I feel are as follows (they begin to occur 30min after the drink - which I drink right after the workout in the car)…1) great energy and concentration (as opposed to the lethargy that sets in with most high GI postworkout drinks - this is physiologic due to the combo of the BCAAs and the mild hypoglycemic response)…2)Warmth all throughout the torso (this is due to insulin’s effects on blood flow…namely, insulin is a vasodilator, causing the blood vessels to increase blood flow and nutrient delivery)…3) A mild pump (again due to blood flow)…4) AND IF I WAIT TOO LONG TO EAT AGAIN, I will get hypoglycemic and start to feel shaky and a bit disoriented (but, heck, you will get this anytime you get hypoglycemic so it’s an indirect effect of the drink, not a direct one)…Personally, I didnt sweat perfusely and didnt feel sick. I just feel good on it. My favorite effect is that it is a high GI drink that doesnt make me feel lethargic after training. That is worth it’s weight in gold. NOW, dont get me wrong, Tim assures me that his experience was more intense than mine. And I dont doubt it. In his column he just reported his own results and didnt say that everone will get the same intensity. I have unbelievable insulin sensitivity though (Ill tell you guys how to measure that in an upcoming article) so
I would have predicted my response to be milder. But the bottom line is that the goal of the drink is high blood levels of insulin, carbs, protein, and specific aminos to cause the body to recover and grow quickly. By jacking up insulin (the effects of which are increased blood flow and nutrient delivery, decreased protein breakdown, increased protein synthesis, and increased glycogen synthesis) you should feel some effects. That’s what he means when he says you need to feel this to be growing. I have one suggestion to the naysayers, wait till all my articles are up over the next few weeks. They discuss every detail. If you want to take issue with things at that point, Ill be glad to address any criticisms you may have. Trust me on this…I have spent the last 1year+ developing this idea and reading every damn research paper even peripherally related to this topic so that is would be air tight. And I think it is pretty darn close. Also over the next few articles Ill post data to show it’s effects. So just bear with us guys. Although it may seem sensationalized, I assure you that this thing works.
Keep fighting the good fight John-we’re with ya! I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little skeptical but I have confidence that there’s a method to the madness. I’m not gonna be a guinea pig on this one though, I’m just gonna sit on the sidelines for now and wait for the real deal to come out. As for JOHN, “Silence, nonbeliever! Obedience is a must!”
John-I’m a type I diabetic and was wondering if I could take this. My A1c levels have been in the nondiabetic range for years, as I have tight control over my sugar. I do 3 insulin shots per day and workout in the evenings. Maybe I’d have to give a couple of units of humalog when I drink this. A couple hours later, I eat again and shoot up NPH for the night. What do you think? I’m doubtful I’ll be able to do it.
one thing i did notice, is that after teh pw cocktail, i had the similar effects as john was mentioning, as well, i had to lay down about 1-1.5 hours later. The thing that didnt click before was that my appitite went way up later on, and i found myself unable to get full, which is usually an easy task :). I notice in general now that my appitite has gone up a fair bit since i started experimenting with these pw cocktails…I dont know if its related or if its placebo effect or whatever…but perhaps there is logic behind this? anyone feel free to comment
WHEN IS THIS THIS STUFF COMING OUT???
steve-o…sounds like you’re clickin’, bro. You’re right about the placebo effect though, sometimes our crazy minds take us places we’d rather be. But I wouldn’t be so quick to attribute it to that, as it seems like you’ve got to be close anyway. Great work, T-Man! So, which cocktail that you’ve come up with proved to be the “one?” By that I mean, which one that you’ve experimented with has not necessarily reproduced Tim’s symptoms (as John said he experienced more mild symptoms) but you feel was the most potent? And for my purposes–can’t force enough down the piehole–which one gives you the greatest appetite? Thanks, steve-o.
is there a special reason we can not use tang or crystal light in this drink? they do not have any sugar … just maltodextrin…
ok ive tried blend three, and i must say its messed me up the best so far, although it was much harder to get down…
6grams leucine, 3.84grams isoleucine, 5.28 grams valine, 10grams glutamine, 40grams dextrose, 30 grams maltodextrin, 35 grams hyrdo whey and some fenugreek extract…now for side effects…same as before expect theonset was i little quicker that then usual 30-40 mins…a bit more lightheaded than before, and i got hte sweats a little this time, actually im at about the 40 min mark now, and im starting to heat up more! cool…anyway, i got dizzier but stayed alert…one thing that hadnt happened before, about 15 mins in, i felt like bugs were crawling on my back, i dont know what thats all about…i still think something isnt right with it though, so ill continue to tinker…peace…one thing i can say though, i feel noticably leaner than i did on the weekend when i started trying this stuff, and im eating more now cause of the appitite thing, plus im up 3 pounds…hard to say…but its doing something for me thats for sure!
John Berardi, I would like your opinion of PRE-workout meals. I’ve been a firm believer that what you eat before your workout affects your progress as well. I’ve had the most success using longer digesting proteins only an hour before and a few simple carbs, like an apple, about 20 minutes before my workout. Recovery from the induced catabolic state is a big step but lowering the effects in the first place would offer an advantage as well. I’m also interested to know the degree of hydrolysis of the protein you chose. Protein Factory claims they are the only place that distributes 520 Dalton hydrolyzed protein, which is the lowest currently available. One last question, what is your view of using bovine serum to boost the immunoglobulin content or aminogen to assist in digesting longer protein chains?
John U, I have no data on this pre/during the workout theory but here is something Dr Peter Lemon and I talk about alot…You may need the catabolic stimulus (during the workout) to cause the rebound seen in anabolism in the post-workout phase. The immediate post-workout leads to catabolism but further down the line, you end up getting anabolic. If you didnt, weight lifting wouldnt make you grow. I get questions about pre and during the workout nutrition all the time and am a little skeptical in recommending nutrients in an attempt to inhibit the catabolic stimuli. Perhaps without it, you wouldnt grow as well. Again, I have no data but I believe that this may be the case. So I focus on the postworkout period.
Bovine Serum? Havent seen alot of good data so Im not "sold" on it...Digestion of longer protein chains? Dont think it's necessary during normal conditions. During the PW period, this wont even be able to match hydrolysate. Hydrolysate is absorbed so quickly. Ive seen data where hydrolyzed soy was 70% absorbed within 30 min while for regular soy only 60% is absorbed 4 hrs later. I dont think anything can match that rate of absorption of hydrolysate.
For JD, this drink will elevate your blood sugar VERY rapidly. Since you would not get the synergistic insulin response (due to your diabetes), supplying injectible insulin could make it work just the same though. Again, the goals are high insulin, high aminos, high protein, high carbs in the blood at the same time. Check with your doctor to see if a sugary, protein plus amino beverage would be a problem. I cant give med advice.
John U…the question you pose about PRE-workout nutrition is one that I have been concerned with for a long time as well. I would be curious to know what Dr. Berardi has to say as well. I’ve read severly conflicting theories and have tried all sorts of combos (hi protein/little carbs; iso-cal; very high low-glycemic, complex carbs w/protein). I was also wondering about fat content in these meals in terms of slowing down digestion–I wouldn’t think you’d just want that food sitting there in your gut during your workout. I usually try to get a meal in about an hour before my workout.
One theory I came across was in the ISSA manual in the nutrition section where they–I believe Fred Hatfield–recommends eating for your activity. Therefore, depending on bodyweight and intensity of training, a trainee could need anywhere from 800-1500 calories before training. This meal should be consumed about an hour and a half to an hour before training. Now that’s a whole lot of food! I tried it a couple times, and I was absolutely bloated and don’t think I functioned that well during training–although the energy levels were pretty high.
Wouldn’t a ratio of 2 parts dextrose to 1 part maltodextrine be a better choice for the carb component of this mix, since you are looking for a dramatic insulin response. Also, what is the cheapest anyone has found for the BCAA’s, I can get them for 79.95 for valinine, and leucine for 1 kilo, and 99.95 for Isoleucine for 1 kilo. Can anyone get these cheaper or in lesser quantities for the seperate amino’s, I’m not looking for a BCAA premix. Thanks!!!
Question for John Berardi: Tim listed
free form aminos (the l- form) in his “recipe”. But if you are going to use hydrolyzed protein for rapid absorbtion,
wouldn’t it make more sense to use the peptide
versions of the aminos too - which are usually
hydrolyzed. I’m not sure if you can get
BCAA peptides, but you could at least use
glutamine peptides instead of the l-glutamine.
This just seems to make more sense to me - or
am I missing something? Maybe you have some
research that contraindicates the peptide form?
Steve M, Jomarlabs has the 3 aminos in 150g
amounts: valine $17.00, leucine $18.00 and isoleucine $42.00.
Another Question for John Berardi: Whey
protein is naturally very high in BCAAs and
relatively low in glutamine, so did you take
these factors into account when determining
the ratios of aminos?
Quick quetion.I bought some Maltodexdrin from a brewery supply store,they said corn syrup was the same as maltodexdrin. Is this right?
I bought 2 kilos believing the store clerk please confirm.
I hope the ratios are given this week as I live in Australia and this conconction would cost me a fortune in Aussie dollars, I am spending enough on Biotest now. I’d even pay for the information of the precise ratios.
Heres hoping.
P.S. T-mag is the best keep up great work
topkat
I’ll second spencer’s question. When is this stuff going to be available to us? It sounds fantastic. I love hearing about all the cool shit coming out from Biotest, but I like it even more when I can actually get my hands on some of this cool shit.
John Berardi, I do not want to eliminate the catabolic stimulus, I am more interested in lowering its effect. Recovery will be faster and you will still have the rebound anabolic effect. I personally found glutamine and BCAAs before or during the workout to be effective in combination with the post-workout meal. I’ve also tried anti-oxidants to reduce oxidative damage. I know that certain catabolic hormones are needed to create the anabolic rebound but I think the mechanical stress and damage is more important in terms of recovery. Otherwise, the soleus would grow indirectly if you trained biceps, which may happen but I certainly can’t see it. Damn, I wish that was possible. One thing you stated before still intrigues me. The increased protein intake does stimulate glucagon production. I always thought that it was negligible though, at least in the presence of insulin. So a shot of fast acting insulin with this post-workout meal would enhance the anabolic effect and render glucagon pretty much useless. I also find that every time I use this shake that I have more energy and focus. Maybe it would work well pre-workout, I have not tried it yet, without the carbs for a boost. I completely agree that hydrolysate is superior to all other proteins, with respect to absorption, as well. May I suggest if you get any more samples of Biotest’s protein mix I think you should get it without the carbs, or at least a much lower amount, and try this before your workouts as well. In 2-3 weeks of this I’m sure you would notice a difference in recovery and gain just as much if not more than what you would otherwise.
Free, we used the ratios we used were based on the amino acid profile of the whey protein…in essence we added the extra aminos necessary for protein synthesis and for synergistic insulin release while taking into account the “natural profile” of aminos in the whey we used (which will probably be different from other manufacturer’s whey hydrolysates). I typed the numbers in the calculator myself…Right now we are playing around with glutamine vs glutamine peptides to see if there is a difference in the absorption within the framework of this experiment/formula…as far as other hydrolyzed aminos, the cost becomes prohibitive. Finally, there are some other aminos Ive been playing around with adding or subtracting to get the desired effect. This week’s article will address some of this…