Possible to Overtrain While Bulking?

Training
41

Overtraining exists, but maybe not the kind that so many articles list the symptoms for. If you are spending 2.5 hours a training session for the same or nearly the same training results that 1/2 hour will get you, you are over training. The results are not linear. To think that you can somehow gain additional muscle by throwing more and more work in the mix as well as a vicious bulking diet is foolish.

Some people can tolerate a silly amount of volume, but if there are no gains, just say you enjoy training, are there for the social part as much or more than the training goals and be done with the argument.
I think most people stall because they do the same weight, same rep rage sets, same routine well past where adaptation has stopped.

They’ll then find some magical routine that is drastically different than what they were doing and they will say they’ve found the holy grail. They’ll also proclaim steroid like properties of the new nutritional substitute, I mean supplement, that they just so happened to have started at the same time they changed things up.
***Dude, my lateral delts never exploded until I did cheat lateral raise 21s with 45 seconds rest exactly once every 84 hours with exactly 84 grams of carbs on non training days. I am also 4.0175% bodyfat

42

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
@csulli: you miss the point here. It’s not really about training programs per se, but what an individual can handle at any point in time, which depends on multiple factors and differs significantly among subjects. But I would say that for every lifter at any time there exists a training program that will send him to a state of overreaching. And that include the mighty squat god.

@usmccds423: So you are a beginner but have been around “long enough”? Have you been to the happy place people refer to as the overreaching state? Anyway, I wasn’t talking about the average joes who happen to go to the gym, but the subset of people (only relevant really on here) who take this shit seriously. I bet there it isn’t as rare as people make it out to be. Have seen too many people on here and elsewhere simply denying these states exist and give the shitty just-eat-more.[/quote]
I have never felt such a state. Although I am glad to hear you say it would be very apparent if I did. I would sometimes wonder if it was some kind of subtle, mythical specter that worked against you in the background.

I guess I have adapted slowly enough to be able to train a pretty good bit. I wonder what I could even do to overtrain, and I guess it would have to be something silly like just maxing on everything twice a day every day I dunno.[/quote]

I’ve felt such a state earlier in my training journey, when I started lifting seriously (but not the most intelligently). You definitely know something’s up.

Fortunately, it’s not an easy state to reach. I was fairly new to training and didn’t have much of a work capacity built up yet, but was doing up to 3hr long workouts taking most sets to failure, always working heavy, and using psych up techniques on every set. Generous amounts of (hard) cardio too and a minimum of sleep sealed the deal.

43

I call BS on over-training in all but the most exceptional circumstances.

44

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:
Right now, I still lift 7 days a week and am making good strength progress.[/quote]

If you’re still getting stronger, I wouldn’t change anything. Is your body weight going up or staying about the same? Eat a little more if the scale isn’t changing. When progress stops, then add more rest.

Maybe you’re thinking that it might be optimal to do less work and gain more? You can only find out for yourself. Maybe do a 6on/1off and monitor your progress. If it works better or even equal (why do more work if you’ll gain the same by doing less??), then try a 5on/2off. etc.

You are ‘overtraining’ if you do one more rep than necessary to stimulate adaptation. You can still gain rapid strength and mass with this definition of overtraining; you’re just tapping into your recovery system a little more than necessary.

Then there’s the ‘overreaching/overtraining’ (completely different). This is basically a medical condition that is defined by the change in your body’s hormones and you begin having significant symptoms as described all over the internet. You WILL know the day you start to overreach… like it has been said earlier, it is not subtle.

45

[quote]oso0690 wrote:

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:
Right now, I still lift 7 days a week and am making good strength progress.[/quote]

If you’re still getting stronger, I wouldn’t change anything. Is your body weight going up or staying about the same? Eat a little more if the scale isn’t changing. When progress stops, then add more rest.

Maybe you’re thinking that it might be optimal to do less work and gain more? You can only find out for yourself. Maybe do a 6on/1off and monitor your progress. If it works better or even equal (why do more work if you’ll gain the same by doing less??), then try a 5on/2off. etc.

You are ‘overtraining’ if you do one more rep than necessary to stimulate adaptation. You can still gain rapid strength and mass with this definition of overtraining; you’re just tapping into your recovery system a little more than necessary.

Then there’s the ‘overreaching/overtraining’ (completely different). This is basically a medical condition that is defined by the change in your body’s hormones and you begin having significant symptoms as described all over the internet. You WILL know the day you start to overreach… like it has been said earlier, it is not subtle.[/quote]

Here’s my perspective on this:

I do not think strength gains, past the intermediate phase, are necessarily very helpful in gauging hypertrophy. The reason is as follows: strength can be derived from CNS adaptation, increased muscle, or increased muscle efficiency. Of those, the second relates to hypertrophy, the others do not.

My concern is (particularly since I’m having trouble breaking past the 200lb barrier) that I am still gaining strength due to CNS and efficiency adaptations while stalling a bit on the ‘muscle building’ adaptation.

In that respect, I’m wondering whether I’m “overtraining” for purposes of hypertrophy while not “overtraining” for the purposes of strength. Didn’t know if anyone had a similar type of experience in the past and might have some thoughts.

I love to train, so the “less work to do more” part isn’t a major concern with me: I’d like to do more volume because I enjoy it, but if it is an impediment to the goal (hypertrophy), then I may need to adjust.

Goal for 2014 is to get to a lean-ish 215lbs at 5’10", then try to push things to a less-lean 230 in 2015 and see where I’m at. I turn 27 this year and would like to compete in bodybuilding when I’m 30. So far this year, I’m actually down 2lbs despite lowering cardio and getting more aggressive with my eating than in the past. I think this 200lb marker is set point that I need to blast through and may require rethinking my past methodology.

46

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:
Right now, I still lift 7 days a week and am making good strength progress.[/quote]

If you’re still getting stronger, I wouldn’t change anything. Is your body weight going up or staying about the same? Eat a little more if the scale isn’t changing. When progress stops, then add more rest.

Maybe you’re thinking that it might be optimal to do less work and gain more? You can only find out for yourself. Maybe do a 6on/1off and monitor your progress. If it works better or even equal (why do more work if you’ll gain the same by doing less??), then try a 5on/2off. etc.

You are ‘overtraining’ if you do one more rep than necessary to stimulate adaptation. You can still gain rapid strength and mass with this definition of overtraining; you’re just tapping into your recovery system a little more than necessary.

Then there’s the ‘overreaching/overtraining’ (completely different). This is basically a medical condition that is defined by the change in your body’s hormones and you begin having significant symptoms as described all over the internet. You WILL know the day you start to overreach… like it has been said earlier, it is not subtle.[/quote]

Here’s my perspective on this:

I do not think strength gains, past the intermediate phase, are necessarily very helpful in gauging hypertrophy. The reason is as follows: strength can be derived from CNS adaptation, increased muscle, or increased muscle efficiency. Of those, the second relates to hypertrophy, the others do not.

My concern is (particularly since I’m having trouble breaking past the 200lb barrier) that I am still gaining strength due to CNS and efficiency adaptations while stalling a bit on the ‘muscle building’ adaptation.

In that respect, I’m wondering whether I’m “overtraining” for purposes of hypertrophy while not “overtraining” for the purposes of strength. Didn’t know if anyone had a similar type of experience in the past and might have some thoughts.

I love to train, so the “less work to do more” part isn’t a major concern with me: I’d like to do more volume because I enjoy it, but if it is an impediment to the goal (hypertrophy), then I may need to adjust.

Goal for 2014 is to get to a lean-ish 215lbs at 5’10", then try to push things to a less-lean 230 in 2015 and see where I’m at. I turn 27 this year and would like to compete in bodybuilding when I’m 30. So far this year, I’m actually down 2lbs despite lowering cardio and getting more aggressive with my eating than in the past. I think this 200lb marker is set point that I need to blast through and may require rethinking my past methodology.[/quote]

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

Here’s my perspective on this:

I do not think strength gains, past the intermediate phase, are necessarily very helpful in gauging hypertrophy. The reason is as follows: strength can be derived from CNS adaptation, increased muscle, or increased muscle efficiency. Of those, the second relates to hypertrophy, the others do not.

My concern is (particularly since I’m having trouble breaking past the 200lb barrier) that I am still gaining strength due to CNS and efficiency adaptations while stalling a bit on the ‘muscle building’ adaptation.

In that respect, I’m wondering whether I’m “overtraining” for purposes of hypertrophy while not “overtraining” for the purposes of strength. Didn’t know if anyone had a similar type of experience in the past and might have some thoughts.

I love to train, so the “less work to do more” part isn’t a major concern with me: I’d like to do more volume because I enjoy it, but if it is an impediment to the goal (hypertrophy), then I may need to adjust.

Goal for 2014 is to get to a lean-ish 215lbs at 5’10", then try to push things to a less-lean 230 in 2015 and see where I’m at. I turn 27 this year and would like to compete in bodybuilding when I’m 30. So far this year, I’m actually down 2lbs despite lowering cardio and getting more aggressive with my eating than in the past. I think this 200lb marker is set point that I need to blast through and may require rethinking my past methodology.[/quote]

Wouldn’t CNS adaptation be the same as muscle efficiency? I agree that you can gain strength due to CNS adaptations only… and a bigger muscle is definitely a stronger muscle (with all other things held equal).

If you’re having trouble gaining weight though, the only things you can do are:

1.) Eat more.
2.) Train less.

I think your CNS would overtrain much more quickly than your muscular system especially if you’re working the entire body.

I have no experience with muscular system overtraining though if it exists. Maybe somebody else can chime in about that.

47

“I always hear people here talking about overtraining, he says, and it makes me laugh, because they have no idea what even regular training is supposed to be. If I took anything from weightlifting, it’s the idea that there’s always someone, somewhere, working harder than you.”

elitefts.creatavist.com/story/9238

48

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
“I always hear people here talking about overtraining, he says, and it makes me laugh, because they have no idea what even regular training is supposed to be. If I took anything from weightlifting, it’s the idea that there’s always someone, somewhere, working harder than you.”

elitefts.creatavist.com/story/9238[/quote]

It’s worth mention that the same people also advocate training smart: their cycles are typically periodized in a way such that they’re obviously not going hard all the time. So any of their comments about overtraining should be read in that context. IMO, they’re really talking about “overtraining” within a program with defined parameters, which is not how many in the “Bigger Leaner Stronger” forum approach their programming.

49

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
“I always hear people here talking about overtraining, he says, and it makes me laugh, because they have no idea what even regular training is supposed to be. If I took anything from weightlifting, it’s the idea that there’s always someone, somewhere, working harder than you.”

elitefts.creatavist.com/story/9238[/quote]

It’s worth mention that the same people also advocate training smart: their cycles are typically periodized in a way such that they’re obviously not going hard all the time. So any of their comments about overtraining should be read in that context. IMO, they’re really talking about “overtraining” within a program with defined parameters, which is not how many in the “Bigger Leaner Stronger” forum approach their programming.[/quote]

True, but many people in the BSL crowd are also not training nearly as hard or consistently as folks like Amit either.

50

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
“I always hear people here talking about overtraining, he says, and it makes me laugh, because they have no idea what even regular training is supposed to be. If I took anything from weightlifting, it’s the idea that there’s always someone, somewhere, working harder than you.”

elitefts.creatavist.com/story/9238[/quote]

It’s worth mention that the same people also advocate training smart: their cycles are typically periodized in a way such that they’re obviously not going hard all the time. So any of their comments about overtraining should be read in that context. IMO, they’re really talking about “overtraining” within a program with defined parameters, which is not how many in the “Bigger Leaner Stronger” forum approach their programming.[/quote]

True, but many people in the BSL crowd are also not training nearly as hard or consistently as folks like Amit either. [/quote]

Do you think that’s true? I’m not so sure. I think that when I look at these boards, most people seem to screw up the other 22-23 hours of the day way more than training.

There are people on these boards who have been lifting for more than a decade consistently and still can’t squat 315. I don’t think that’s due to lack of trying to lift heavy–I think it’s because they haven’t taken care of the other part: diet, recovery, intelligent programming, etc. Or they’ve been yo-yoing between cutting and “bulking” for years. I don’t think that’s the same as not training hard.

51

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
“I always hear people here talking about overtraining, he says, and it makes me laugh, because they have no idea what even regular training is supposed to be. If I took anything from weightlifting, it’s the idea that there’s always someone, somewhere, working harder than you.”

elitefts.creatavist.com/story/9238[/quote]

It’s worth mention that the same people also advocate training smart: their cycles are typically periodized in a way such that they’re obviously not going hard all the time. So any of their comments about overtraining should be read in that context. IMO, they’re really talking about “overtraining” within a program with defined parameters, which is not how many in the “Bigger Leaner Stronger” forum approach their programming.[/quote]

True, but many people in the BSL crowd are also not training nearly as hard or consistently as folks like Amit either. [/quote]

Do you think that’s true? I’m not so sure. I think that when I look at these boards, most people seem to screw up the other 22-23 hours of the day way more than training.

There are people on these boards who have been lifting for more than a decade consistently and still can’t squat 315. I don’t think that’s due to lack of trying to lift heavy–I think it’s because they haven’t taken care of the other part: diet, recovery, intelligent programming, etc. Or they’ve been yo-yoing between cutting and “bulking” for years. I don’t think that’s the same as not training hard.
[/quote]

I don’t know. I have a hard time believing someone is lifting consistently for 10 years and hasn’t hit certain levels of strength/size. I also think, based on Americans in general, folks over eat, not under eat and a lot of “weekend warriors” are not shy about supplementation. So recovery to me is probably not the issue.

I agree that intelligent programming and yoyoing are definitely an issue.

This is just my opinion based off reading and posting in BSL.

52

The point I’m trying to make, DoingWork421, is that in general your average gym rat isn’t working nearly as hard as it would take to reach a true state of over training. I just don’t think the amount of effort over the amount of time it would take applies to the vast majority of trainees.

Now you take some of the, for lack of better term “elite”, guys in the bodybuilding, powerlifting, Oly sections of the site and ya, they could reach that state, but they are also the ones that have their shit dialed in.

53

Just my .02 worth: i spent a fair amount of time reading all of the advice and recommendations about training and spent a fair amount of time following such advice. Wrong! I was always concerned about overtraining because this is what would happen if I pushed myself, so I read. Wrong! So, I would train with body part splits and training three days a week for an hour. Wrong! After saying fuck it, I thought I would try (as George Costanza) the opposite. I started training five or six days a week “full body” (more emphasis on either upper or lower each time, but still full body). Right! This has worked wonders for me. Lots of weight lost (goal for the past six months) and strength up. I tend to agree about not too much overtraining going on. I used this as an exercise not to push myself and it was a mistake.

Everybody is different, of course, but by and large, for most, more is better than less, it certainly was for me.

54

[quote]gulfcoast wrote:
Just my .02 worth: i spent a fair amount of time reading all of the advice and recommendations about training and spent a fair amount of time following such advice. Wrong! I was always concerned about overtraining because this is what would happen if I pushed myself, so I read. Wrong! So, I would train with body part splits and training three days a week for an hour. Wrong! After saying fuck it, I thought I would try (as George Costanza) the opposite. I started training five or six days a week “full body” (more emphasis on either upper or lower each time, but still full body). Right! This has worked wonders for me. Lots of weight lost (goal for the past six months) and strength up. I tend to agree about not too much overtraining going on. I used this as an exercise not to push myself and it was a mistake.

Everybody is different, of course, but by and large, for most, more is better than less, it certainly was for me.[/quote]

I guess I would ask how strong you are. That works at the lower end, but at least in my experience after building a base of strength training frequency and volume matter a lot.

55

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]gulfcoast wrote:
Just my .02 worth: i spent a fair amount of time reading all of the advice and recommendations about training and spent a fair amount of time following such advice. Wrong! I was always concerned about overtraining because this is what would happen if I pushed myself, so I read. Wrong! So, I would train with body part splits and training three days a week for an hour. Wrong! After saying fuck it, I thought I would try (as George Costanza) the opposite. I started training five or six days a week “full body” (more emphasis on either upper or lower each time, but still full body). Right! This has worked wonders for me. Lots of weight lost (goal for the past six months) and strength up. I tend to agree about not too much overtraining going on. I used this as an exercise not to push myself and it was a mistake.

Everybody is different, of course, but by and large, for most, more is better than less, it certainly was for me.[/quote]

I guess I would ask how strong you are. That works at the lower end, but at least in my experience after building a base of strength training frequency and volume matter a lot.[/quote]

Not very, but strong is not the only concern for me. I am more concerned with overall appearance, fitness and healthy joints. Too many STRONG people I see in the gym are lacking in overall fitness (certainly not all). They have a great bench or squat but their gut sticks out past their chest. Obviously, not all and these are just generalities (very dangerous sometimes, but based on my observations) many tend to have way more injuries and are covered head to toe in compression sleeves and the like. I would certainly like more strength but not at the expense of the things I want more. If all you want is strength, great, but this is not the only measure one should use. It’s okay to want more strength and size, but I think it should not be at the expense of overall health and fitness. I would rather have a six pack and a leanness over another 50 pounds on my bench press. But if others want the 50 pounds, great, it’s not for all.

More strength, again for many, maybe most, certainly not all, comes at too high a price over the long term. Again, just my observations and I could certainly be wrong.

56

[quote]gulfcoast wrote:

Not very, but strong is not the only concern for me. I am more concerned with overall appearance, fitness and healthy joints. Too many STRONG people I see in the gym are lacking in overall fitness (certainly not all). They have a great bench or squat but their gut sticks out past their chest. Obviously, not all and these are just generalities (very dangerous sometimes, but based on my observations) many tend to have way more injuries and are covered head to toe in compression sleeves and the like. I would certainly like more strength but not at the expense of the things I want more. If all you want is strength, great, but this is not the only measure one should use. It’s okay to want more strength and size, but I think it should not be at the expense of overall health and fitness. I would rather have a six pack and a leanness over another 50 pounds on my bench press. But if others want the 50 pounds, great, it’s not for all.

More strength, again for many, maybe most, certainly not all, comes at too high a price over the long term. Again, just my observations and I could certainly be wrong.
[/quote]

Those are fine goals, but I’d suggest that you may be on the wrong forum. Perhaps the conditioning or nutrition forum…as this is the “bigger, stronger, leaner” forum…

Note also that “having a six pack,” being lean and healthy, and being strong are not mutually exclusive.

57

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]gulfcoast wrote:

Not very, but strong is not the only concern for me. I am more concerned with overall appearance, fitness and healthy joints. Too many STRONG people I see in the gym are lacking in overall fitness (certainly not all). They have a great bench or squat but their gut sticks out past their chest. Obviously, not all and these are just generalities (very dangerous sometimes, but based on my observations) many tend to have way more injuries and are covered head to toe in compression sleeves and the like. I would certainly like more strength but not at the expense of the things I want more. If all you want is strength, great, but this is not the only measure one should use. It’s okay to want more strength and size, but I think it should not be at the expense of overall health and fitness. I would rather have a six pack and a leanness over another 50 pounds on my bench press. But if others want the 50 pounds, great, it’s not for all.

More strength, again for many, maybe most, certainly not all, comes at too high a price over the long term. Again, just my observations and I could certainly be wrong.
[/quote]

Those are fine goals, but I’d suggest that you may be on the wrong forum. Perhaps the conditioning or nutrition forum…as this is the “bigger, stronger, leaner” forum…

Note also that “having a six pack,” being lean and healthy, and being strong are not mutually exclusive. [/quote]

You’re right. I didn’t mean to imply that my goals and strength were exclusive but only that I haven’t seen too much over training in the gym, but I have seen a bunch of the opposite; and that strength in and of itself and, particularly, at the expense of my overall health goals, doesn’t serve my purposes. But, of course, more strength is always welcome.

58

[quote]oso0690 wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
You’ve got experience and seem in touch with your body, why don’t you power through it and report back in a month. You’ll give the community another data point and learn a bit more about what you’re capable of.[/quote]

Powered through, for what, a week? Pants became tighter around the waist and I REGRESSED on several lifts.

In other words, I got fatter and weaker by eating tons of food and ignoring overreaching symptoms. Time for a nice supercompensation cruise :)[/quote]

Please post details of perfect “nutrition/macros” alluded to in your OP.

59

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
If someone is consistently gaining weight (assuming his/her nutrition/macros are perfect), do you believe he/she they can experience overreaching/overtraining? If so, and if he/she continue to train hard (and gain weight), do you think this weight gain will be any different than if he/she wasn’t overtrained/overreached?[/quote]

Yes.Otherwise highly motivated lifters would lift for 10 hours a day and surpass whose who lift a few hours a day.

60

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
You’ve got experience and seem in touch with your body, why don’t you power through it and report back in a month. You’ll give the community another data point and learn a bit more about what you’re capable of.[/quote]

Powered through, for what, a week? Pants became tighter around the waist and I REGRESSED on several lifts.

In other words, I got fatter and weaker by eating tons of food and ignoring overreaching symptoms. Time for a nice supercompensation cruise :)[/quote]

Please post details of perfect “nutrition/macros” alluded to in your OP.
[/quote]

Morning 6am
3-4 eggs
4 bacon strips
Green shake w/whole orange, broccoli, carrots, cauliflower

Snack 9am
Milk
Beef Jerky
Fruit variety

Lunch 12pm
Whole wheat pita
Guacamole
Chicken breast
Milk

Snack 3pm
Kashi bars
Fruit variety
Jerky/nuts/etc.
Milk

Dinner 6pm
Tilapia
Potato/Oatmeal
1 liter green juice

Before Bed Snack 9pm
Cottage Cheese
Banana
Milk