If someone is consistently gaining weight (assuming his/her nutrition/macros are perfect), do you believe he/she they can experience overreaching/overtraining? If so, and if he/she continue to train hard (and gain weight), do you think this weight gain will be any different than if he/she wasn’t overtrained/overreached?
One post in nearly 7 years…
Over training, BS for about 99.99% of trainees.
[quote]csulli wrote:
One post in nearly 7 years…[/quote]
Ha! I knew somebody would see that. Can’t remember why I even created the account that long ago…
[quote]oso0690 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
One post in nearly 7 years…[/quote]
Ha! I knew somebody would see that. Can’t remember why I even created the account that long ago…[/quote]
How the heck did you remember the username and password???
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]oso0690 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
One post in nearly 7 years…[/quote]
Ha! I knew somebody would see that. Can’t remember why I even created the account that long ago…[/quote]
How the heck did you remember the username and password???
[/quote]
lol honestly I didn’t think I ever created one on this forum. Helped that I posted on other forums back then with that same username/password though.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Over training, BS for about 99.99% of trainees.[/quote]
I get tired of people repeating this bullshit. You are a beginner, aren’t you?
OP: There is nothing subtle about being in an overreaching state. You will know if you are there and I’m pretty sure the majority of people will NOT (be able to) continue eating and training “perfectly” in that state to gain weight. But maybe there are some freaks who pull it off - BrozKnows alluded to it. Eating enough will help to prevent getting to that state in the first place in many cases, but I don’t think anyone will be immune to it under certain conditions.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Over training, BS for about 99.99% of trainees.[/quote]
I get tired of people repeating this bullshit. You are a beginner, aren’t you?
[/quote]
What is wrong with that statement?
There is a very same percentage of trainees that ever reach a state of over training. It can happen, but it’s rare in my opinion.
I may be a “beginner” but I’ve been around long enough to know the above is used as an excuse far more than it actually occurs.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Over training, BS for about 99.99% of trainees.[/quote]
I get tired of people repeating this bullshit. You are a beginner, aren’t you?
OP: There is nothing subtle about being in an overreaching state. You will know if you are there and I’m pretty sure the majority of people will NOT (be able to) continue eating and training “perfectly” in that state to gain weight. But maybe there are some freaks who pull it off - BrozKnows alluded to it. Eating enough will help to prevent getting to that state in the first place in many cases, but I don’t think anyone will be immune to it under certain conditions.[/quote]
Eh I dunno man. Out of everyone I’ve ever seen in a gym ever, I’d be willing to be not a single one of them was overtraining.
Can someone post an example overtraining program?
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Over training, BS for about 99.99% of trainees.[/quote]
I get tired of people repeating this bullshit. You are a beginner, aren’t you?
OP: There is nothing subtle about being in an overreaching state. You will know if you are there and I’m pretty sure the majority of people will NOT (be able to) continue eating and training “perfectly” in that state to gain weight. But maybe there are some freaks who pull it off - BrozKnows alluded to it. Eating enough will help to prevent getting to that state in the first place in many cases, but I don’t think anyone will be immune to it under certain conditions.[/quote]
Eh I dunno man. Out of everyone I’ve ever seen in a gym ever, I’d be willing to be not a single one of them was overtraining.
[/quote]
Exactly my point.
The majority of trainees either:
- Half ass their workout/ are inconsistent
- Quit
- Spin their wheels for years
- Work their ass’ off and advance (small % of trainees)
Of the categories maybe #4 will over train, but in all likelihood they’ve figured it out and won’t. Category #3 might, but again I doubt it because they probably aren’t working hard enough to advance anyway.
You know who might over train? Sailors training to be Navy Seals. They might end up over training. That and other advanced military schools. Otherwise unless you’re a complete idiot, all be it hard working, most people aren’t going to over train in the gym. Most people.
So is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.
I agree that overtraining exists and it is very very difficult to achieve. Just recently, I’ve stepped back into the realm of early overreaching (insomnia, wired and tired, lethargy, heart rate faster/thumping harder, etc.)… or at least I believe it to be. Normally my lifts and weight come to a halt and I regress/lose weight until I take time off or deload for a while…I’m sure this happens when you under-eat also.
This time though, I’m bulking up as much as possible (workout also more intense) and still gaining weight despite having developed these symptoms recently. I’ve always believed the best thing to do is back off and take advantage of supercompensation (whether that be 1 day or several weeks). It got me wondering though what would happen if I decided to ignore my body’s signs and continue lifting intensely but also to still gain weight (and assuming I didn’t get injured in the process.)
@csulli: you miss the point here. It’s not really about training programs per se, but what an individual can handle at any point in time, which depends on multiple factors and differs significantly among subjects. But I would say that for every lifter at any time there exists a training program that will send him to a state of overreaching. And that include the mighty squat god.
@usmccds423: So you are a beginner but have been around “long enough”? Have you been to the happy place people refer to as the overreaching state? Anyway, I wasn’t talking about the average joes who happen to go to the gym, but the subset of people (only relevant really on here) who take this shit seriously. I bet there it isn’t as rare as people make it out to be. Have seen too many people on here and elsewhere simply denying these states exist and give the shitty just-eat-more advice.
@oso0690: I’m a bit puzzled by your “gaining weight” comments, because having such a high rate of weight gain implies significant fat gain and not hypertrophy progress. Also, eating enough while overreaching would be really tough, because appetite goes to shit. Anyway, I personally don’t believe in BrozKnow’s idea that you should power through these overreaching states. Also, it doesn’t seem to be necessary except perhaps for lifting world records in Olympic weightlifting, which I bet nobody on this site will ever come close to do.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
@csulli: you miss the point here. It’s not really about training programs per se, but what an individual can handle at any point in time, which depends on multiple factors and differs significantly among subjects. But I would say that for every lifter at any time there exists a training program that will send him to a state of overreaching. And that include the mighty squat god.
@usmccds423: So you are a beginner but have been around “long enough”? Have you been to the happy place people refer to as the overreaching state? Anyway, I wasn’t talking about the average joes who happen to go to the gym, but the subset of people (only relevant really on here) who take this shit seriously. I bet there it isn’t as rare as people make it out to be. Have seen too many people on here and elsewhere simply denying these states exist and give the shitty just-eat-more.[/quote]
I have never felt such a state. Although I am glad to hear you say it would be very apparent if I did. I would sometimes wonder if it was some kind of subtle, mythical specter that worked against you in the background.
I guess I have adapted slowly enough to be able to train a pretty good bit. I wonder what I could even do to overtrain, and I guess it would have to be something silly like just maxing on everything twice a day every day I dunno.
I think with beginners, overtraining can be as something as simple as not letting your body adjust to workloads/intensity or trying to do to much at once, that or just awful programming. But I do feel its very hard thing to do and some people just use it as an excuse to not train hard.
Overtrain while ‘bulking?’
Short answer:
Possible? Sure
Probable? Nope
Thoughts: A beginner may be doing everything correctly in terms of diet, and recovery (sleep, other physically demanding activities etc), but the actual stress needed to produce a growth response may be less than what they are actually subjecting themselves to. This doesn’t mean that they won’t make noticeable strides, merely that they may possibly be creating greater inroads in terms of fatigue that simply eating more than enough nutrients can sufficiently address.
I like to believe (initially prompted by Bill Pearl’s writing) that the longer you train, the more your body can not only handle in terms of training, but the more it will actually require. This isn’t merely a volume issue, but can involve other training variables as well. If this makes sense, then it might logically mean that an average newbie, eating plenty of food throughout the day to cover all his bases, but also doing 3 hours at the gym, every night, employing every possible intensifier technique he’s learned from the pages of Flex magazine for every set, may indeed be over training, despite some lbs gained on the scale from the usual adaptation response to a new stimulus.
I guess what I’m trying to get to (but probably bouncing all over as I’m just very tired at the moment), is that there’s “progress”, as some people might define it (the scale moved, woo hoo!) and there’s progress as an intelligent, analytical trainer would define it.
S
[quote]oso0690 wrote:
I agree that overtraining exists and it is very very difficult to achieve. Just recently, I’ve stepped back into the realm of early overreaching (insomnia, wired and tired, lethargy, heart rate faster/thumping harder, etc.)… or at least I believe it to be. Normally my lifts and weight come to a halt and I regress/lose weight until I take time off or deload for a while…I’m sure this happens when you under-eat also.
This time though, I’m bulking up as much as possible (workout also more intense) and still gaining weight despite having developed these symptoms recently. I’ve always believed the best thing to do is back off and take advantage of supercompensation (whether that be 1 day or several weeks). It got me wondering though what would happen if I decided to ignore my body’s signs and continue lifting intensely but also to still gain weight (and assuming I didn’t get injured in the process.)[/quote]
You’ve got experience and seem in touch with your body, why don’t you power through it and report back in a month. You’ll give the community another data point and learn a bit more about what you’re capable of.
The rest of y’all need to define overtraining before you argue about it, otherwise you’re just slinging shit on the internet (don’t get me wrong, that can be fun too)
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
@usmccds423: So you are a beginner but have been around “long enough”? Have you been to the happy place people refer to as the overreaching state? Anyway, I wasn’t talking about the average joes who happen to go to the gym, but the subset of people (only relevant really on here) who take this shit seriously. I bet there it isn’t as rare as people make it out to be. Have seen too many people on here and elsewhere simply denying these states exist and give the shitty just-eat-more advice.
[/quote]
You labeled me a beginner, I’m not going to argue with you about an arbitrarily defined label. I lifted on and off for around 10 years with various goals. I’ve also been around plenty of hard working gym rats and competitors. I’ve yet to see anyone “over trained”.
That’s my experience and my opinion. You’ll also notice I gave no advise.
You weren’t talking about the average Joe, fine, but you didn’t specify that did you? I’d still say, even on here, the vast majority will never be close to over training in my opinion.
Spinning your wheels is not eating enough or training too much and getting nowehere.
Over-reaching is a specific term relating to a brief period, normally one week, where an athlete deliberately exceeds thier body’s recuperative capacity and then allows the body to supercompensate.
Over-training is a serious state that is very difficult to reach which affects the neurological, hormonal and muscular systems, potentially for months to years - and is infrequently reached by even serious athletes.
In answer to the original question, when bulking yes it’s quite possible to over-reach or more rarely overtrain.
If you continued ‘bulking’ while clinically overtrained the most likely difference would be that more of the weight gained would be fat, rather than muscle.