Possible to Overtrain While Bulking?

Training
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Here’s a thought experiment: Can a beginner overtrain?

I would say no, that they have merely reached a temporary point where their training has momentarily exceeded the ability of their body to adapt.

I would go further and say it is nearly impossible for a healthy person to be in a chronically overtrained state unless they are at an advanced/ELITE level in their field.

CKD: I appreciate your attempt to define OTing, but a “…state … which affects the neurological, hormonal and muscular systems…” is simply called adaptation.

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Here’s a thought experiment: Can a beginner overtrain?

I would say no, that they have merely reached a temporary point where their training has momentarily exceeded the ability of their body to adapt.

I would go further and say it is nearly impossible for a healthy person to be in a chronically overtrained state unless they are at an advanced/ELITE level in their field.

CKD: I appreciate your attempt to define OTing, but a “…state … which affects the neurological, hormonal and muscular systems…” is simply called adaptation.

[/quote]

No I disagre. The term ‘overtraining’ is frequently thrown around vaguely and is ill-defined for many people.

But it’s been studied extensively for many years now and is about as accepted a phenomenon as one is likely to get in exercise science.

“Possible indicators include an imbalance of the neuroendocrine system, suppression of the immune system, indicators of muscle damage, depressed muscle glycogen reserves, deteriorating aerobic, ventilatory and cardiac efficiency, a depressed psychological profile, and poor performance in sport specific tests, e.g. time trials.” from “Overtraining in Athletes” Rod W. Fry, Alan R. Morton, Dr David Keast, Sports Medicine
July 1991, Volume 12, Issue 1, pp 32-65.

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Great find, thank you for posting that.

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Sweet as. If everyone knows what they’re referring to we actually have a real discussion.

I would 100% agree with your previous point that a beginner experiencing those symptoms in the short term is simply in a state of adaptation.

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And I have seen people that I would describe as only being at an intermediate level of performance and experience who have smasshed the crap out of themselves for so long they did enter a clinically overtrained state. Much easier in endurance based activities.

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[quote]CrushKillDestroy wrote:
And I have seen people that I would describe as only being at an intermediate level of performance and experience who have smasshed the crap out of themselves for so long they did enter a clinically overtrained state. Much easier in endurance based activities.[/quote]

I’m glad you brought this up because I wanted to go in a similar direction. I am suspicious of (mostly recreational, albeit serious) weightlifters who believe they are clinically overtrained based on working out 4 or 5 days a week. Especially when HS swimmers are spending 3-4 hours a day in the pool and collegiate swimmers are doing up to 10,000 yards some days, and 5000-7000 in any one workout.

In track, it was accepted that the day after doing 16 x 400 intervals the workout was going to suck. In weightlifting, people have a shitty workout and they seem to think they’re on the road to overtraining.

/broad generalizations

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When it comes to beginners / intermediates then I think Overtraining needs to be synonyms with Underrecovering.

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]CrushKillDestroy wrote:
And I have seen people that I would describe as only being at an intermediate level of performance and experience who have smasshed the crap out of themselves for so long they did enter a clinically overtrained state. Much easier in endurance based activities.[/quote]

I’m glad you brought this up because I wanted to go in a similar direction. I am suspicious of (mostly recreational, albeit serious) weightlifters who believe they are clinically overtrained based on working out 4 or 5 days a week. Especially when HS swimmers are spending 3-4 hours a day in the pool and collegiate swimmers are doing up to 10,000 yards some days, and 5000-7000 in any one workout.

In track, it was accepted that the day after doing 16 x 400 intervals the workout was going to suck. In weightlifting, people have a shitty workout and they seem to think they’re on the road to overtraining.

/broad generalizations
[/quote]

The general populous having a bad grasp at what is and isn’t overtraining doesn’t make it any less possible for weightlifting or other non-endurance athletes from doing so. Your CNS knows there is a difference between sprinting and pacing yourself for a long endurance event, high school swimmers covering more distance in the water than a sprinter does in their training doesn’t make it more taxing on their CNS.

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[quote]red04 wrote:

The general populous having a bad grasp at what is and isn’t overtraining doesn’t make it any less possible for weightlifting or other non-endurance athletes from doing so. Your CNS knows there is a difference between sprinting and pacing yourself for a long endurance event, high school swimmers covering more distance in the water than a sprinter does in their training doesn’t make it more taxing on their CNS.[/quote]

I think I’m making my point poorly. My point wasn’t to compare sprinter and swimmers, but to acknowledge that both train for much longer than weightlifters typically do, and at high intensity as well. Intervals (in swimming and running) are typically done at race pace or quicker.

Anyways, I’ve muddied the arguement with my poor analogy. So, let me ask this: How would an intermediate lifter - one who by definition can still improve, suffer from overtraining?

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

The general populous having a bad grasp at what is and isn’t overtraining doesn’t make it any less possible for weightlifting or other non-endurance athletes from doing so. Your CNS knows there is a difference between sprinting and pacing yourself for a long endurance event, high school swimmers covering more distance in the water than a sprinter does in their training doesn’t make it more taxing on their CNS.[/quote]

I think I’m making my point poorly. My point wasn’t to compare sprinter and swimmers, but to acknowledge that both train for much longer than weightlifters typically do, and at high intensity as well. Intervals (in swimming and running) are typically done at race pace or quicker.

Anyways, I’ve muddied the arguement with my poor analogy. So, let me ask this: How would an intermediate lifter - one who by definition can still improve, suffer from overtraining?[/quote]

Just because they can improve doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of overtaxing their CNS. One of the main reasons they can improve is that their motor units are less efficient(and they have less of them, and less cross sectional area of muscle), which makes them just as capable of ‘depleting the tank’ as it were.

Edit: I’m not trying to contend that clinical overtraining(not just ‘oh I’m tired’ for a few days and need a deload) is in any way common, or more likely in beginner or intermediate trainees, just that it’s a real thing, and somewhere there exists kids/men that are so inundated with ‘leave it all on the floor’ mentality that they literally beat themselves into the ground, only to find that instead of massive gains they have massive hormonal issues, depression, and weakness. Deloads are real and useful. Rest and recovery are important. These are not things that every notable coach ever has placed into their programs and emphasized because overtraining is fake and impossible to ‘achieve.’

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

that they have merely reached a temporary point where their training has momentarily exceeded the ability of their body to adapt.
[/quote]

^I like this quite a bit.

I look back at my beginning training and can’t believe how horrible (not even close to being supportive of my efforts) my diet was. While there’s no way I can know for certain, I like to think that if I had better known how to allow my body to recover at its full capabilities my progress might not have stalled.

You may not have been referring solely to controllable factors (eating, sleep, stress etc) with the comment, and more genetic ones, but even then, I find myself offering the “you can’t rush time” advice to a lot of younger lifters who, while making obvious progress, want it faster and faster. I think that sometimes you have to accept that “you can only do so much”.

S

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This is one of the few studies I’ve been able to find. The abstract, I don’t have access to the whole analysis, indicates over training is possible. I think it’s worth noting the training stimulus, 10x1 @ 1RM for 14 days straight, is not exactly your typical programming.

β2-Adrenergic receptor downregulation and performance decrements during high-intensity resistance exercise overtraining.

Authors:
Fry, Andrew C.1afry@memphis.edu
Schilling, Brian K.1
Weiss, Lawrence W.1
Chiu, Loren Z. F.1
Source:
Journal of Applied Physiology Dec2006, Vol. 101 Issue 6, p1664 9p.

Abstract:
Previous research on overtraining due to excessive use of maximal resistance exercise loads [100% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM)] indicates that peripheral muscle maladaptation contributes to overtraining-induced performance decrements. This study examined the cellular and molecular responses of skeletal muscle to performance decrements due to high-relative-intensity (%1 RM) resistance exercise overtraining. Weight-trained men were divided into overtrained (UT, n = 8) and control (Con, n = 8) groups. The UT group performed 10 × 1 at 100% 1 RM daily for 2 wk, whereas the Con group performed normal training 2 days/wk. Muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis muscle, voluntary static and dynamic muscle performances, and nocturnal urinary epinephrine were assessed before (pre) and after (post) over-training. Overtraining occurred as indicated by a decrease in 1-RM strength for the UT group (mean ± SE; UT pre = 159.3 ± 10.1 kg, UT post = 151.4 ± 9.9 kg, Con pre = 146.0 ± 12.9 kg, Con post = 144.9 ± 13.3 kg), as well as a 36.3% decrease in mean power at 100% 1-RM loads. Normal training could be resumed only after 2-8 wk of training cessation. Muscle β2-adrenergic receptor (β2-AR; fmol/mg protein) density significantly decreased by 37.0% for the OT group and was unchanged for the Con group (-1.8%). Nocturnal urinary epinephrine for the UT group increased by 49%, although this was not significant (effect size = 0.42). The ratio of nocturnal urinary epinephrine to β2-AR density suggested a decreased β2-AR sensitivity for the UT group (2.4-fold increase). Overtraining occurred based on decreased muscular force and power. Desensitization of the β2-AR system suggests that this may be an important contributor to performance decrements due to excessive use of maximal resistance exercise loads.

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If anyone does want to read up a bit more on the subject:

Fry, Rod W., Alan R. Morton, and David Keast. “Overtraining in athletes.” Sports Medicine 12.1 (1991): 32-65.

Hooper, Sue L., and Laurel Traeger Mackinnon. “Monitoring overtraining in athletes.” Sports Medicine 20.5 (1995): 321-327.

Kellmann, M. “Preventing overtraining in athletes in high‐intensity sports and stress/recovery monitoring.” Scandinavian journal of medicine & science in sports 20.s2 (2010): 95-102.

Meeusen, Romain, et al. “Diagnosing overtraining in athletes using the two-bout exercise protocol.” British journal of sports medicine 44.9 (2010): 642-648.

BARRON, JEFFREY L., et al. “Hypothalamic dysfunction in overtrained athletes.” Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 60.4 (1985): 803-806.

MacKinnon, Laurel T. “Overtraining effects on immunity and performance in athletes.” Immunology and cell biology 78.5 (2000): 502-509.

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Oh Christ people get all bent out of shape when someone says overtraining.

Semantics, can we just start saying underrecovering?

I definitely exceeded my recovery capabilities on 2013.

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It’s not exactly semantics is it, when there’s a clinical term that has a specific meaning. I’ll start using the word hypertrophy when what I mean is ‘the pump’ and see what sort of circles we talk in.

I agree though it would be more useful if undertraining were substituted into 99% of threads about this sort of thing.

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[quote]CrushKillDestroy wrote:
If you continued ‘bulking’ while clinically overtrained the most likely difference would be that more of the weight gained would be fat, rather than muscle. [/quote]

That’s what I was thinking. When overreaching occurs, it seems that hormones begin to alter in a way that would reduce the anabolic effect and thus lead more to fat gain. Although some believe that it’s still just under-recovering and that you can eat your way out of a slump like that.

With all the various information on the internet about overtraining/overreaching, it’s difficult to tell how independent overtraining is from under-recovering.

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[quote]oso0690 wrote:

[quote]CrushKillDestroy wrote:
If you continued ‘bulking’ while clinically overtrained the most likely difference would be that more of the weight gained would be fat, rather than muscle. [/quote]

That’s what I was thinking. When overreaching occurs, it seems that hormones begin to alter in a way that would reduce the anabolic effect and thus lead more to fat gain. Although some believe that it’s still just under-recovering and that you can eat your way out of a slump like that.

With all the various information on the internet about overtraining/overreaching, it’s difficult to tell how independent overtraining is from under-recovering.
[/quote]

I think the sentiment that you can “eat your way out of” an overreaching state is ridiculous. The symptoms of an overreaching state are very similar to being sick or sleep deprived or during the comedown/crash of hard drugs. Who would honestly argue that simply eating more would cure the issues in the latter scenarios.

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However, eating more total calories and more high quality food would be one of the things I’d suggest would assist with recovering.

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
You’ve got experience and seem in touch with your body, why don’t you power through it and report back in a month. You’ll give the community another data point and learn a bit more about what you’re capable of.[/quote]

Powered through, for what, a week? Pants became tighter around the waist and I REGRESSED on several lifts.

In other words, I got fatter and weaker by eating tons of food and ignoring overreaching symptoms. Time for a nice supercompensation cruise :slight_smile:

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I’m hoping some can chime in on this:

So I’m probably somewhere in the upper range of the intermediates right now strength-wise: eg can bench press 265 for a set of ten, squat 405 with a 3-second descent for reps.

I’ve been training seven days a week for years, but the makeup of those 7-day weeks has changed drastically over time. I’d separate it into phases. I’m going to use squatting as a descriptive proxy just because it’s an exercise that I’ve consistently used over the years:

Phase 1: just alternated upper/lower each day of the week. Made my noob gains–very little structure. Stopped making progress at around a 285 squat, decided to change things up.

Phase 2: ran Big Beyond Belief with the usual Frankensteining–doubling volume. Used the off day to deadlift (lol). Managed to keep building strength. Squat moved to around 400, stalled again.

Phase 3: Decided that I needed to adjust frequency at my strength and size level at this point. Did a push/pull/legs split. Worked fairly well, focused on things like 20-rep squat sets and whatnot.

Right now, I still lift 7 days a week and am making good strength progress. It currently looks like this: Legs, Back, Chest, Arms, Back (pump) / Legs (pump), Chest, Arms.

It seems to be working fairly well on the strength side, but I’m wondering whether I’m “overtraining” as it relates to hypertrophy. On the one hand that seems like an absurd concept because the muscles adapt to build muscular strength (it’s not a linear correlation, obviously). Additionally, I sometimes wonder whether I’m “overtrained” without realizing it because I haven’t allowed my body to know what it’s like to recover by taking a full off day each week (or two).

This year, I have a couple of goals: to squat 500 for reps and to hit 215 bodyweight. I’m making good strength progress, but I’m wondering whether at this point I’m impeding hypertrophy by training every day.

Wondering if anyone, particularly the advanced lifters, have any perspective on that. I guess I feel as though I might need to make a fundamental change: I think I’m emerging from the whole “Meadows writes 4-5 day programs because they have to be realistic for those who don’t want to or can’t train everyday” and into the “Maybe those two off days are actually more valuable than two more training days for hypertrophy.”

Any thoughts appreciated.