Poliquin: Power Snatches vs Hang Cleans

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

[quote]MUthrows94 wrote:
Regular Gonzalez wrote:

With something like top speed sprinting, the velocities we are talking about are so much greater than anything we can achieve in the weight room that it’s ridiculous to act as if one particular lift is way more “sport specific” than another lift because it’s slightly faster.

I disagree here, which lift would you suggest that recruits more fast twitch muscle fibers? After all this is the primary goal of this lift, to develop the fast twitch muscle fibers which have the greatest impact on athletic performance does it not?

Sprinting incorporates a myriad of muscle fibers as does a snatch. Speed bench, jump squats, and the like are good but do not address the entire body.
[/quote]

I tend to agree with Carl Valle’s take:
"Then we have the Olympic lifts. While I do use them with some athletes I can only say that only 5% of my athletes do them regularly to improve their performance. The fastest athlete I have worked with (2000 Olympic Gold Medallists Kenny Brokenburr) never cleaned or snatched with me.

I felt that his squat technique wasn?t up to par and there was no reason to teach a movement that required a far more technical skill level. If he was 10 years younger and had a natural feel for the lifts I might have integrated the movements in his program. Fortunately with so many stimuli such as the sprinting work, plyometrics, medicine ball throws, and structural lifts, I didn?t worry about one movement in one component of his training.

The expert strength coaches that followed my athletes? training considered my elimination of the Olympic lifts moronic. From their ivory tower perspective I was incompetent to teach them the skills, or I didn?t have the research that shows that the highest wattage comes from the snatch!

They failed to realize that the hip of an elite sprinter generates more watts while at top speed then by any Olympic lift or variation. Heavy squats were just too simple for them and didn?t satisfy their need for journal research to confirm the obvious.

They failed to realize that the sport prepares the specific qualities and lifting should expand and improve the general strength of the organism. The goal of strength training is to improving strength, and should not try to replicate the sport.

At the 2001 S.W.I.S conference in Toronto, Charlie Francis explained the concept of how general training improves performance. Unfortunately, it was rejected by many of the members of the audience because it didn?t have the glamour or sex appeal. So instead of looking at the demands of the sport, let the lifts assist the general needs and leave the replication to the circus clowns."

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/watt_a_lie_carl_valle.htm

Also, anecdotally I am not aware of any elite sprinters who snatch. Most (but not all) seem to back squat and bench, many use power cleans, but I haven’t heard of any who use snatches.

22

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
interesting point, snatch pulls improve my power clean a lot more than just power cleaning. i can believe that it’s probably more effective than the power clean for sports performance. I’m sure it helps you measure a lot of sports attributes, but sport performance?

I dunno if I’m sold on that. But what do i know… He definitely knows more than me.

Personally though i’m quit a bit more intrigued by 1 arm snatches

Jason Young 1 arm snatching 198lbs

[/quote]

Just out of interest, how heavy do you go on snatch pulls (relative to your PC 1RM)?

23

I like using power snatches for explosive endurance circuits. I don’t go very heavy with them – i.e, I only use an empty O bar – and do circuits of them for HIIT. They are great for conditioning: like jumping rope but for the whole body.

24

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
interesting point, snatch pulls improve my power clean a lot more than just power cleaning. i can believe that it’s probably more effective than the power clean for sports performance. I’m sure it helps you measure a lot of sports attributes, but sport performance?

I dunno if I’m sold on that. But what do i know… He definitely knows more than me.

Personally though i’m quit a bit more intrigued by 1 arm snatches

Jason Young 1 arm snatching 198lbs

Just out of interest, how heavy do you go on snatch pulls (relative to your PC 1RM)?

[/quote]

for myself it’s probably a technique thing, but hell they’re damn near equal…like 90-95% of my max power clean. If I use straps I can get more on my snatch pull than my power clean by 20-30lbs.

25

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
The goal of strength training is to improving strength, and should not try to replicate the sport.
[/quote]

^That’s my fucking mantra

26

[quote]MUthrows94 wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
Wow i’d give both of MUthrows94’s nuts to get my hands on that book.

HAHA ouch…the Russians were ahead of their time with the Olympic lifts and implementing them with their athletes. Same could be said with the eastern Europeans (look up videos of Ricky Bruch FREAKKKKKKK).

It’s interesting that the point about the vertical jump and power snatch (from the hang) are closely related. It makes a ton of sense though since the premise of a power clean or snatch is essentially jumping with the bar as high as possible to get a full extension on the pull. I have always noticed an increase in my vert whenever any of my OL lifts have improved…
[/quote]

Ricky Bruch is swedish, not eastern european. Goddamnit :slight_smile:

27

Some of the reasons the PS can be seen as preferable to the PC in training an athlete with limited time are:

  1. The PC can present some wrist flexibility issues in some athletes.
  2. The catch phase of the clean can take a while to master, especially if flexibility issues are involved.
  3. Most people are conditioned to using their arms when lifting. The PC when done incorrectly becomes a cheat reverse curl and it’s often hard to get some people to stop using their arms. Since the PS trajectory is much different the arm pull can be cured more easily.
  4. The power output of a PS is slightly higher then the PC.
  5. The ROM of the PS is greater then that of the PC
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neither

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[quote]cutrawnatural wrote:
neither[/quote]

Please elaborate…

30

theres so many variables when considering the training of an athlete, i would rather not add to that stack of problems by including olympic lifts.

lifts incorrectly taught by most coaches.
Lifts that take too long to teach
lifts an older athlete will have a difficult time learning
lifts better suited for a much younger athlete (14 years old for example)
lifts that dont offer the most bang for your buck.
lifts that are completely a product of hype, and high school football coaches.

if you want to jump higher, or run faster, have you ever thought of jumping? and running?

again, and im not sure who believes this or not, the stronger you are, the faster you are, but you will never see that speed if the programming is incorrect, and you dont sprint in the weight room, and you dont lift on the track…they are completely seperate, but both a means to an end.

p’c

31

[quote]cutrawnatural wrote:
theres so many variables when considering the training of an athlete, i would rather not add to that stack of problems by including olympic lifts.

lifts incorrectly taught by most coaches.
If you include ALL coaches then majority of athletic skills are taught incorrectly. Get the proper coach for what you’re trying to learn.

Lifts that take too long to teach
I can teach pretty good PS techique in a couple of hours.

lifts an older athlete will have a difficult time learning
Maybe full squat variations, but power versions are a different animal.

lifts better suited for a much younger athlete (14 years old for example)
14 year olds will get relatively better results with most things.

lifts that dont offer the most bang for your buck.
I
lifts that are completely a product of hype, and high school football coaches.

if you want to jump higher, or run faster, have you ever thought of jumping? and running?

again, and im not sure who believes this or not, the stronger you are, the faster you are, but you will never see that speed if the programming is incorrect, and you dont sprint in the weight room, and you dont lift on the track…they are completely seperate, but both a means to an end.

p’c[/quote]

lifts incorrectly taught by most coaches.
**If you include ALL coaches then majority of athletic skills are taught incorrectly. Get the proper coach for what you’re trying to learn.

Lifts that take too long to teach
**I can teach pretty good PS techique in a couple of hours.

lifts an older athlete will have a difficult time learning
**Maybe full squat variations, but power versions are a different animal.

lifts better suited for a much younger athlete (14 years old for example)
**14 year olds will get relatively better results with most things.

lifts that dont offer the most bang for your buck.
**Totally depends on what you’re trying to accomplish

lifts that are completely a product of hype, and high school football coaches.
**I don’t understand this statement at all.

if you want to jump higher, or run faster, have you ever thought of jumping? and running?
**So are saying lifting weights has no benefit to sport performance?

again, and im not sure who believes this or not, the stronger you are, the faster you are, but you will never see that speed if the programming is incorrect, and you dont sprint in the weight room, and you dont lift on the track…they are completely seperate, but both a means to an end.
**You seem to counter dict yourself here

32

[quote]Rick Jakubowski wrote:
cutrawnatural wrote:
theres so many variables when considering the training of an athlete, i would rather not add to that stack of problems by including olympic lifts.

lifts incorrectly taught by most coaches.
If you include ALL coaches then majority of athletic skills are taught incorrectly. Get the proper coach for what you’re trying to learn.

Lifts that take too long to teach
I can teach pretty good PS techique in a couple of hours.

lifts an older athlete will have a difficult time learning
Maybe full squat variations, but power versions are a different animal.

lifts better suited for a much younger athlete (14 years old for example)
14 year olds will get relatively better results with most things.

lifts that dont offer the most bang for your buck.
I
lifts that are completely a product of hype, and high school football coaches.

if you want to jump higher, or run faster, have you ever thought of jumping? and running?

again, and im not sure who believes this or not, the stronger you are, the faster you are, but you will never see that speed if the programming is incorrect, and you dont sprint in the weight room, and you dont lift on the track…they are completely seperate, but both a means to an end.

p’c

lifts incorrectly taught by most coaches.
**If you include ALL coaches then majority of athletic skills are taught incorrectly. Get the proper coach for what you’re trying to learn.

Lifts that take too long to teach
**I can teach pretty good PS techique in a couple of hours.

lifts an older athlete will have a difficult time learning
**Maybe full squat variations, but power versions are a different animal.

lifts better suited for a much younger athlete (14 years old for example)
**14 year olds will get relatively better results with most things.

lifts that dont offer the most bang for your buck.
**Totally depends on what you’re trying to accomplish

lifts that are completely a product of hype, and high school football coaches.
**I don’t understand this statement at all.

if you want to jump higher, or run faster, have you ever thought of jumping? and running?
**So are saying lifting weights has no benefit to sport performance?

again, and im not sure who believes this or not, the stronger you are, the faster you are, but you will never see that speed if the programming is incorrect, and you dont sprint in the weight room, and you dont lift on the track…they are completely seperate, but both a means to an end.
**You seem to counter dict yourself here[/quote]

your right, im wrong. you happy? of course im kidding, this isnt an argument.

your being too technical.

as it is, i get much better results without the inclusion of olympic lifts and their variants.

also trying to teach an entire team of athletes how to power snatch is just not convenient, also, there is a diffrence between them absorbing information and applying it. they will not learn how to apply it in 2 hours, and if you think they will, you are kidding yourself.

even if they did, box, depth, and vertical jumps, as well as sprinting just cant be replicated, and offer more bang for your buck then olympic lifts.

strength training does improve your sport performance, as long as you apply it to your sport, but there are better ways to apply strength training to your sport than olympic lifting (Say vertical jumping? or sprinting?), and there are better ways to get your entire body stronger than olympic lifting, and their variants.

Things that i would use anyday in order for my athlete to become a bigger, stronger, and faster athlete.

god bless.

thats all i have to say, everyone has an oppinion.