Policing the World?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

"Serbian officials, who controversially opened a government office in Mitrovica last week, organised the rally under the slogan: “No to the illegal EU mission without a UN Security Council resolution, no to an independent Kosovo, and a big yes to Kosovo remaining a part of Serbia with Serbs as fully fledged Serbian citizens.”
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article3263519.ece

“The EU cannot come here to implement the plan of that Finn, which has already been rejected by the U.N. Security Council,” hardline Kosovo Serb political leader Marko Jaksic told the crowd, in reference to U.N. envoy Martti Ahtisaari.

http://www.kosovo.net/hrabuses1a.html

Moral of the story; intervention and nation building is bad…excet for when it isn’t (i.e. when the Europeans say so). Geeze, and to think there wasn’t even a possible stockpile of WMD’s to be found.

Now, if Christian terrorist begin bombing EU policemen, are they a “legitimate resistance?” Freedom fighters?

42

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Sloth :

Uranium shells??? What kind of depleted hashmium cigs have you been smoking?

As always, just raise questions, stir some uproar and when it’s getting serious you beat it.
It’s such a farce that the staunch self-appointed “T-Men” are always the ones who argue like the PMS women they so loathe. [/quote]

Boy, oh boy! That is one particularly insightful post. Excellent!

Sloth, you should be ashamed of yourself. Have the decency to acknowledge that you made a mistake trying to compare Kosovo to Iraq. No shame in admitting one’s own faults.

43

[quote]lixy wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Sloth :

Uranium shells??? What kind of depleted hashmium cigs have you been smoking?

As always, just raise questions, stir some uproar and when it’s getting serious you beat it.
It’s such a farce that the staunch self-appointed “T-Men” are always the ones who argue like the PMS women they so loathe.

Boy, oh boy! That is one particularly insightful post. Excellent!

Sloth, you should be ashamed of yourself. Have the decency to acknowledge that you made a mistake trying to compare Kosovo to Iraq. No shame in admitting one’s own faults.[/quote]

What faults? What nations were under attack?

44

Because we’re the government – and you’re not

Some useful hints brought to you from the same people who promote war.

45

[quote]orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:

Plus, I am very much for intervening, at least from the air when people start to build concentration/rape camps as the Serbs and Croats did during the wars in the 90s.

Oh…Well, there we go. By the way, Orion. How many died in acts of mass murder in Iraq? As to your question, to where I stand…Who knows, Orion? Perhaps I’m illustrating hypocrisy by playing Devil’s advocate.

I’m sick and tired of people complaining about the US acting as a “World Policing, Interveningt, Nation-building” power, while they themselves practice a double standard. This is laughable. Thank you for participating Lixy, and Orion. I’d invite others to look further into the issue themselves.

Friend Sloth, here Orion was answering–in a characteristically flaccid and self-exculpatory fashion–a question I posed him on 11/30, referring to the upcoming renewal of Balkan misery. I quote myself:

[i]“… Let me " 'splain it to ya.”
[Bill] Clinton, love him as you may, dragged his heals through the Sarajevo crisis, with great loss of life, as Europe dithered. With Kosovo, Brussels demanded the bombing of Belgrade and Clinton acquiesced. When British PM Major pleaded for US combat troops on the ground, Clinton resisted, then acquiesced once more, and Milosevich folded.

[Perhaps you were too young to understand any of this; I hold a negative memory of the German-language press through this period. A fair, but not great, book is Halberstam’s, “War in a Time of Peace.”]

Any lessons here?
Any black and white judgments on the extraterritoreal projection of force by the US and some Allies?
Did Clinton have principles? Did the European pacifists?
Will you stand so principled if, as the UN and NATO dithers once again, warfare starts again in Kosovo and Serbia?[/i]"

Well, NATO and UN are dithering, the Europeans are saying that “they are needed to be there,” and, if needed, the US will do the bombing when Orion decides it is desirable, quoting Orion once more: "Plus, I am very much for intervening, at least from the air when people start to build concentration/rape camps as the Serbs and Croats did during the wars in the 90s.’

Unfortunately, the rape and concentration camps were functioning before the bombing requested by NATO, while Europe watched passively. (Remember the Dutch “guarding” Srbenica?). It was left to the US to project the will of western Europe onto the Serbs.

Will the US be called on to clean up the mess, again?
If not, will French and Austrian and German pilots fly over Kosovo to keep the peace? Will they challenge Russia if it re-supplies “Western Serbia?”

Gee. It feels good to be a anti-interventionist, and to my friends in Europe, enjoy the heat this winter.

If you have any point to make, feel free to post it.

I will gladly answer the one point hidden in there:

Yes, we should have a European strike force, something that can project power beyond our borders. We are already working on it. [/quote]

Ok. No need to feign stupidity since it comes so naturally to you. Since you prefer insult to discussion, I will be somewhat more accommodating to you than you ever are to me.

I will make it clear, to you, Orion so that you will not feel the need to post another snarky remark designed to avoid answering my legitimate points.

  1. It seems you, too, have a hankerin’ to bomb from the air, when it suits your purposes…
  2. Because the Europeans can’t/won’t/don’t clean up their own messes, they call on the US, at its peril, to do so…
  3. In 40 years of talkin’ about it, there ain’t no such thing as a “European strike force,” so, continue dithering…

Clear to you yet, schlag for brains?

46

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

Ok. No need to feign stupidity since it comes so naturally to you. Since you prefer insult to discussion, I will be somewhat more accommodating to you than you ever are to me.

I will make it clear, to you, Orion so that you will not feel the need to post another snarky remark designed to avoid answering my legitimate points.

  1. It seems you, too, have a hankerin’ to bomb from the air, when it suits your purposes…
  2. Because the Europeans can’t/won’t/don’t clean up their own messes, they call on the US, at its peril, to do so…
  3. In 40 years of talkin’ about it, there ain’t no such thing as a “European strike force,” so, continue dithering…

Clear to you yet, schlag for brains?
[/quote]

A) Your German is weird.

To use a word that has a couple of meanings and one or two more in my dialect is completely gargl. Even the connotations make no sense.

B) I have a hankerin´ to ignore it when bastards get killed, yes. Not so much when hundreds of thousands of innocents die, no.

C) You do not want to do our dirty work? Don`t do it.

D) Well then there isn`t one yet. Since we can maintain our mental balance without the occasional genocide we manage to do without a big, strong, shiny phall,… um, military.

47

So, How long before we are begged to fix this mess?

48

[quote]John S. wrote:
So, How long before we are begged to fix this mess?[/quote]

Dunno.

But here’s me begging you to mind your own business. Go invade Canada or something…

49

[quote]lixy wrote:
John S. wrote:
So, How long before we are begged to fix this mess?

Dunno.

But here’s me begging you to mind your own business. Go invade Canada or something…[/quote]

Its not are fault that the rest of the world fucks up then runs to us to fix there problems. Then critizes us.

50

[quote]orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

Ok. No need to feign stupidity since it comes so naturally to you. Since you prefer insult to discussion, I will be somewhat more accommodating to you than you ever are to me.

I will make it clear, to you, Orion so that you will not feel the need to post another snarky remark designed to avoid answering my legitimate points.

  1. It seems you, too, have a hankerin’ to bomb from the air, when it suits your purposes…
  2. Because the Europeans can’t/won’t/don’t clean up their own messes, they call on the US, at its peril, to do so…
  3. In 40 years of talkin’ about it, there ain’t no such thing as a “European strike force,” so, continue dithering…

Clear to you yet, schlag for brains?

A) Your German is weird.

To use a word that has a couple of meanings and one or two more in my dialect is completely gargl. Even the connotations make no sense.

B) I have a hankerin´ to ignore it when bastards get killed, yes. Not so much when hundreds of thousands of innocents die, no.

C) You do not want to do our dirty work? Don`t do it.

D) Well then there isn`t one yet. Since we can maintain our mental balance without the occasional genocide we manage to do without a big, strong, shiny phall,… um, military.
[/quote]

So we are once again in rare agreement:

  1. My German is bad; almost non-existant. If I understand a word it is by accident. In this case, I took “schlag” to be a short-hand term for whipped cream, which is so abundantly slathered over everything in Wien.
    Insult retracted, and a compliment extended to your facility in English.

  2. Bastards need killin.’ I agree. But who decides who are the bastards? A war-room in Alexandria, Va.? A committee in Brussels?

The historical example–which we may yet re-live–is that murderous Serbs in Bosnia, or in Kosovo, were not directly confronted by European force; it was “hundreds of thousands” of innocents in Belgrade who were put at risk–by American bombs at the request of Brussels and Britain.

So, “you,” Orion, agree that bastards should be bombed, but “you” have no government or will or method to do so. Passivity is a choice. (But even passivity has its responsibilities.)

If the US, through NATO, is again engaged in the Balkans, the US will have to decide if it is in its own interests to act. It should not be the USA’s obligation to police every evil in the world; with this, too, you do agree.

In short, do not wish for bombs on others until you are are willing to drop them yourself.

51

[quote]John S. wrote:
Its not are fault that the rest of the world fucks up then runs to us to fix there problems. Then critizes us.[/quote]

Now, now…the rest of the world didn’t turn Iraq into the hellhole terrorist breeding ground it is today. In fact, the rest of the world was vehemently opposed to your attack and invasion of the country. Heck, even Americans have been criticizing the war before it even started.

So, yeah, it is your fault! And I’m not speaking of hindsight here.

52

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
2. Bastards need killin.’ I agree. But who decides who are the bastards? [/quote]

Allow me to illuminate you; anyone who attacks unprovoked (i.e: not in unambiguous self-defense) falls in that category.

53

[quote]lixy wrote:
John S. wrote:
Its not are fault that the rest of the world fucks up then runs to us to fix there problems. Then critizes us.

Now, now…the rest of the world didn’t turn Iraq into the hellhole terrorist breeding ground it is today. In fact, the rest of the world was vehemently opposed to your attack and invasion of the country. Heck, even Americans have been criticizing the war before it even started.

So, yeah, it is your fault! And I’m not speaking of hindsight here.[/quote]

Really, because to me it looks like I we just took out a dictator and started a democracy.(I know you hate that) The surge actually produced great results and things are only going to get better.

Ever hear the saying “Things have to get worse before they can get better.”? It was the same in Iraq, These terrorist where doing there last stand there, and now they are finally starting to see they stand no chance in beating us.

54

[quote]John S. wrote:
Really, because to me it looks like I we just took out a dictator and started a democracy. [/quote]

True. But that’s not the part I’m mad about. It’s the millions displaced, the dead kids, the ensuing chaos, etc…

I heard the saying. I certainly wouldn’t have minded Iraqis making their land worse before it can get better. Heck, you’re free to do the same to your country too. What I don’t get, is why you feel obligated to make things worse for other people by dropping bombs on them, invading their land, torturing its people, raping their girls, etc…

That’s a head-scratcher.

55

[quote]lixy wrote:
John S. wrote:
Really, because to me it looks like I we just took out a dictator and started a democracy.

True. But that’s not the part I’m mad about. It’s the millions displaced, the dead kids, the ensuing chaos, etc…

Ever hear the saying “Things have to get worse before they can get better.”? It was the same in Iraq, These terrorist where doing there last stand there, and now they are finally starting to see they stand no chance in beating us.

I heard the saying. I certainly wouldn’t have minded Iraqis making their land worse before it can get better. Heck, you’re free to do the same to your country too. What I don’t get, is why you feel obligated to make things worse for other people by dropping bombs on them, invading their land, torturing its people, raping their girls, etc…

That’s a head-scratcher.[/quote]

You act like all of us rape and torture people. We punish those who do it(yeah yeah now is your time to throw up gitmo). And your damn right we will invade there land to make it better for them. When all is said and done and their democracy is in full effect it will be shown as a great thing.

56

Guys - what we need here is some rational debate. Whether you want to admit it or not we (Europe) need the Americans, the world econonmy depends on it, and let’s be honest, if Russia carries on flexing it’s muscles in the form of energy prices(gas mainly, which they supply in vast amounts to most of Europe) underhand politics and intervening in security council decisons in the form of its veto, we’ll be fucked without US backing (political or militarily). However, the situation in Europe is vastly more complex than anything the Americans have ever been involved in. The US has only been going for a few hundred years, Europe thousands. Democracy, diplomacy and civilisation as we know it today started in England, and the English empire was the largest and most successful ever (open to debate, but true). Todays world is a different place and Kosovo is more about Democracy vs. Communism, Russia backs Serbia while everyone else wants a free Kosovo. Russia is restablishing itself as a world player and has good relations with China, who’s arse we’ll all be licking in a few years time. Now the whole Iraq thing has been a disaster, but if we think long and I mean long term, then strategically it may turn out to be a good move. But is the death and heightened terrorist threat, never mind the damage to US and UK credibility, worth it? Well that remains to be seen. All I know is that when a country has a big fucking problem they want the Americans to come to the rescue. Its HOW that rescue is done that pisses everyone off, why on earth in modern times do the American soldiers rape, murder and torture people in a country where they are meant to be winning hearts and minds. No British soldier would ever, ever get involved in that kind of shit. Why do they still kill British soldiers in ‘Blue on Blue’ - because they are fucking trigger happy. All of this just reinforces a negative stereotype most people hold about the Americans. So in summary, Europe is a vastly more complex entity than America, it’s politics, ethnic mix and religious history is so dynamic its very difficult to keep up. In America, a presidential power, things are just so different. History in Europe influences many of todays situations. I recommend any American read up on the history of the Balkans to really understand the situation in Kosovo (it is very complex). I welcome your comments, constructive of course, anything otherwise and you have lost the argument.

57

Wow, and all this time I thought democracy was started by the Greeks. Europe is somehow this diplomatic superpower and America is this trigger happy nation? Thats funny why is America always called in to do peace talks? Hell these country’s should have went to Europe because apparently we are just a bunch of trigger happy asshats. You know what, next time a country is about to fuck you all up go run to another country.

58

hang on if it wasn’t for us English backing you in Iraq, which was a big mistake by the way, you would be even more fucked than you are now. Unilateralism will be the downfall of the US, they know it now and probably wont try it again. The reason the US is called upon in peace talks is 1, symbolism, 2, financial aid (billions and billions). Now lets look at European countries, France - bunch of chokers, Germany is still fucked up over the war, Italy - fucking pussies, scandinavia neutral as ever, Spain - not even worth mentioning the rest too small or facist to do anything else. So yes Europe isn’t so great, I never said they were. So please do some reading on the Balkans and we can have an informed debate. By the way I did say constructive comments, so I guess you lost the argument!!

59

[quote]John S. wrote:
And your damn right we will invade there land to make it better for them. [/quote]

Spoken like a true imperialist.

60

We did not need Europe to fuck over Iraq. Was it a help sure, but we steam rolled though them just fine. Hell we didn’t even have to use a full force. It is true that europe is helping us hold down some places, but it is not like we couldn’t call apon more troops to take care of it.

The fact of the matter is Europe needs America far more then America needs Europe, and that is why Europe will help us out because they know that the small price they pay now will make is so when the next big country decides that you guys need to be made into there bitch America will step in and fuck them up.