[quote]Sloth wrote:
No, they just look the other way as muslims do so in Kosovo. [/quote]
No they don’t. They condemn it.
But you’re missing the big picture here. Kosovo is in Europe. Iraq isn’t anywhere near your country.
I don’t see any hypocrisy here. They’re sending 1800 cops and prosecutors to a neighboring country. That’s not remotely even remotely comparable to the war on Iraq.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
No, they just look the other way as muslims do so in Kosovo.
No they don’t. They condemn it.
But you’re missing the big picture here. Kosovo is in Europe. Iraq isn’t anywhere near your country.
I don’t see any hypocrisy here. They’re sending 1800 cops and prosecutors to a neighboring country. That’s not remotely even remotely comparable to the war on Iraq.[/quote]
Did you read the “Cry of Serbs” I posted above? Sounds like a great time for Christians!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
We debate Iraq here, alot. But what about European interventionism and Nation Building? Europeans, are you guys just as bad as the US? It doesn’t get discussed nearly as much, though we here from Europeans about how bad we’re viewed because of our own policies.
"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.”
EU leaders also offered Serbia “accelerated” entry to the European Union.
But Russia has insisted that the EU police mission would be illegal without UN approval, something disputed by Western ambassadors here."
They want us there.
At least they want us there more than not having us there and not being able to join us.
Is it our fault that we just do our thing and people like all that peace, prosperity and freedom?
No torturing, rule of law, habeas corpus, that sort of thing makes people want to be a part of it, especially the ones who have seen how thin the veneer of civilization really is.
It works almost like a shining city on a hill.
However, do not despair, with a few minor adjustments to some of your laws the US could well become a candidate for a EU expansion.
We´d prefer Canada though.
Whatever, if they vouch for you we´ll make a package deal.
I thought you were of the Austrain (Mises Austrian) school. The non-agression/non-interventionist type? Have I mistaken your position?[/quote]
I do not think we should intervene.
I am just pointing out that we were asked to do so to prevent worse and so far we have, most of the time.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
No, they just look the other way as muslims do so in Kosovo.
No they don’t. They condemn it.
But you’re missing the big picture here. Kosovo is in Europe. Iraq isn’t anywhere near your country.
I don’t see any hypocrisy here. They’re sending 1800 cops and prosecutors to a neighboring country. That’s not remotely even remotely comparable to the war on Iraq.
Did you read the “Cry of Serbs” I posted above? Sounds like a great time for Christians! [/quote]
Yeah, we get it.
The way a lot of Germans were treated after WWII amounted to ethnic cleansing too.
Strange, nobody wanted them as neighbors anymore,
I wonder why.
Violence Against Christian Serbs and Their Holy Places
Ethnic ‘cleansing’ threat to Serbs in Kosovo
source: Telegraph.co.uk
By Gethin Chamberlain in Mitrovica, Kosovo, and Bojan Pancevski
Monday, 3 December 2007
[i]Tens of thousands of Serbs are preparing to flee the troubled Balkan province of Kosovo because of fears that the region is on the brink of a devastating war.
Talks to find a political solution to the future of the region collapsed last week, eight years after Nato intervened to end violence that left more than 2,000 dead.
With Kosovo’s new Albanian-led administration poised to declare independence from Serbia, the old hatreds are resurfacing. Many Serbs - who account for less than 10 per cent of the population - are packing their bags, fearing a new wave of “ethnic cleansing” at the hands of the Albanian majority.[/i]
http://www.savekosovo.org/default.asp?p=3&leader=0&sp=372
[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
We debate Iraq here, alot. But what about European interventionism and Nation Building? Europeans, are you guys just as bad as the US? It doesn’t get discussed nearly as much, though we here from Europeans about how bad we’re viewed because of our own policies.
"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.”
EU leaders also offered Serbia “accelerated” entry to the European Union.
But Russia has insisted that the EU police mission would be illegal without UN approval, something disputed by Western ambassadors here."
They want us there.
At least they want us there more than not having us there and not being able to join us.
Is it our fault that we just do our thing and people like all that peace, prosperity and freedom?
No torturing, rule of law, habeas corpus, that sort of thing makes people want to be a part of it, especially the ones who have seen how thin the veneer of civilization really is.
It works almost like a shining city on a hill.
However, do not despair, with a few minor adjustments to some of your laws the US could well become a candidate for a EU expansion.
We´d prefer Canada though.
Whatever, if they vouch for you we´ll make a package deal.
I thought you were of the Austrain (Mises Austrian) school. The non-agression/non-interventionist type? Have I mistaken your position?
I do not think we should intervene.
I am just pointing out that we were asked to do so to prevent worse and so far we have, most of the time.
[/quote]
Prevented worse than what? You have ethnic cleansing going on, and Islamist terror groups making inroads. Fantastic! Interesting how soft your non-interventionist stance is, in this instance.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Prevented worse than what? You have ethnic cleansing going on, and Islamist terror groups making inroads. Fantastic! Interesting how soft your non-interventionist stance is, in this instance.[/quote]
Great thread.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
We debate Iraq here, alot. But what about European interventionism and Nation Building? Europeans, are you guys just as bad as the US? It doesn’t get discussed nearly as much, though we here from Europeans about how bad we’re viewed because of our own policies.
"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.”
EU leaders also offered Serbia “accelerated” entry to the European Union.
But Russia has insisted that the EU police mission would be illegal without UN approval, something disputed by Western ambassadors here."
They want us there.
At least they want us there more than not having us there and not being able to join us.
Is it our fault that we just do our thing and people like all that peace, prosperity and freedom?
No torturing, rule of law, habeas corpus, that sort of thing makes people want to be a part of it, especially the ones who have seen how thin the veneer of civilization really is.
It works almost like a shining city on a hill.
However, do not despair, with a few minor adjustments to some of your laws the US could well become a candidate for a EU expansion.
We´d prefer Canada though.
Whatever, if they vouch for you we´ll make a package deal.
I thought you were of the Austrain (Mises Austrian) school. The non-agression/non-interventionist type? Have I mistaken your position?
I do not think we should intervene.
I am just pointing out that we were asked to do so to prevent worse and so far we have, most of the time.
Prevented worse than what? You have ethnic cleansing going on, and Islamist terror groups making inroads. Fantastic! Interesting how soft your non-interventionist stance is, in this instance.[/quote]
That ethnic cleansing is the result of living under Serb rule for far too long.
Most of these Serbs fled and were not killed, so yes it could have been far worse.
Then, we are talking about police forces.
Plus, I am very much for intervening, at least from the air when people start to build concentration/rape camps as the Serbs and Croats did during the wars in the 90s.
I also do not get what you problem is.
Do you want us to intervene or aren`t we intervening enough or WTF is it?
[quote]orion wrote:
Plus, I am very much for intervening, at least from the air when people start to build concentration/rape camps as the Serbs and Croats did during the wars in the 90s.
[/quote]
Oh…Well, there we go. By the way, Orion. How many died in acts of mass murder in Iraq? As to your question, to where I stand…Who knows, Orion? Perhaps I’m illustrating hypocrisy by playing Devil’s advocate.
I’m sick and tired of people complaining about the US acting as a “World Policing, Interveningt, Nation-building” power, while they themselves practice a double standard. This is laughable. Thank you for participating Lixy, and Orion. I’d invite others to look further into the issue themselves.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Did you read the “Cry of Serbs” I posted above? Sounds like a great time for Christians! [/quote]
Let me get this straight: you bitch about European leaders sending 1,800 policemen and prosecutors with the blessing of the whole world, call it interventionism, and say they’re “just as bad as the US”; then you bitch about the fate of some Serbs and how Europeans are not interventionist enough.
My bad for taking you seriously. Carry on…
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Did you read the “Cry of Serbs” I posted above? Sounds like a great time for Christians!
Let me get this straight: you bitch about European leaders sending 1,800 policemen and prosecutors with the blessing of the whole world, call it interventionism, and say they’re “just as bad as the US”; then you bitch about the fate of some Serbs and how Europeans are not interventionist enough.
My bad for taking you seriously. Carry on…[/quote]
Oh, the double standard is showing, Lixy. You are way too transparent.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Did you read the “Cry of Serbs” I posted above? Sounds like a great time for Christians!
Let me get this straight: you bitch about European leaders sending 1,800 policemen and prosecutors with the blessing of the whole world, call it interventionism, and say they’re “just as bad as the US”; then you bitch about the fate of some Serbs and how Europeans are not interventionist enough.
My bad for taking you seriously. Carry on…[/quote]
By the way, notice how he completely ignored the eerily similar grievances listed by a Christian? I guess muslims should only speak in such a way of religious desecration and foriegn occupation. See, if you were genuine, you’d have supported me on this topic. Instead, your hypocrisy got the best of you.
I did not read the posts because some were just ridiculously long so here’s what I think.
Nation building is for 95% of Europe passe.
France wants to be regarded as a big player, so they at least try to look mighty and polish their DOMs and Carriers.
England has a hard time as America’s little brother. In time this will eventually stop. But I see no active Imperialism here, perhaps just some nostalgia.
My own country, Germany, is rather tame these days. German participation in peace missions is generally respected highly, for what it’s worth. Other missions, like Afghanistan, are a complete mess (Just standing around, kicking dust), but since it wasn’t our grand idea and we surely aren’t patronizing…
Curiously, a few days ago there was a big survey and it showed that the majority perceives their land as a “major power”. Sheesh!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Plus, I am very much for intervening, at least from the air when people start to build concentration/rape camps as the Serbs and Croats did during the wars in the 90s.
Oh…Well, there we go. By the way, Orion. How many died in acts of mass murder in Iraq? As to your question, to where I stand…Who knows, Orion? Perhaps I’m illustrating hypocrisy by playing Devil’s advocate.
I’m sick and tired of people complaining about the US acting as a “World Policing, Interveningt, Nation-building” power, while they themselves practice a double standard. This is laughable. Thank you for participating Lixy, and Orion. I’d invite others to look further into the issue themselves.
[/quote]
Friend Sloth, here Orion was answering–in a characteristically flaccid and self-exculpatory fashion–a question I posed him on 11/30, referring to the upcoming renewal of Balkan misery. I quote myself:
[i]“… Let me " 'splain it to ya.”
[Bill] Clinton, love him as you may, dragged his heals through the Sarajevo crisis, with great loss of life, as Europe dithered. With Kosovo, Brussels demanded the bombing of Belgrade and Clinton acquiesced. When British PM Major pleaded for US combat troops on the ground, Clinton resisted, then acquiesced once more, and Milosevich folded.
[Perhaps you were too young to understand any of this; I hold a negative memory of the German-language press through this period. A fair, but not great, book is Halberstam’s, “War in a Time of Peace.”]
Any lessons here?
Any black and white judgments on the extraterritoreal projection of force by the US and some Allies?
Did Clinton have principles? Did the European pacifists?
Will you stand so principled if, as the UN and NATO dithers once again, warfare starts again in Kosovo and Serbia?[/i]"
Well, NATO and UN are dithering, the Europeans are saying that “they are needed to be there,” and, if needed, the US will do the bombing when Orion decides it is desirable, quoting Orion once more: "Plus, I am very much for intervening, at least from the air when people start to build concentration/rape camps as the Serbs and Croats did during the wars in the 90s.’
Unfortunately, the rape and concentration camps were functioning before the bombing requested by NATO, while Europe watched passively. (Remember the Dutch “guarding” Srbenica?). It was left to the US to project the will of western Europe onto the Serbs.
Will the US be called on to clean up the mess, again?
If not, will French and Austrian and German pilots fly over Kosovo to keep the peace? Will they challenge Russia if it re-supplies “Western Serbia?”
Gee. It feels good to be a anti-interventionist, and to my friends in Europe, enjoy the heat this winter.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Plus, I am very much for intervening, at least from the air when people start to build concentration/rape camps as the Serbs and Croats did during the wars in the 90s.
Oh…Well, there we go. By the way, Orion. How many died in acts of mass murder in Iraq? As to your question, to where I stand…Who knows, Orion? Perhaps I’m illustrating hypocrisy by playing Devil’s advocate.
I’m sick and tired of people complaining about the US acting as a “World Policing, Interveningt, Nation-building” power, while they themselves practice a double standard. This is laughable. Thank you for participating Lixy, and Orion. I’d invite others to look further into the issue themselves.
[/quote]
So what is your point?
You feel that you have may have found something that is loosely comparable to Iraq so there you have it I am a hypocrite?
First, bombing some forces that build such camps and/or massacre civilians is no big problem for me, especially if they are at our doorstep.
I might be against it on some theoretical level but if murderous scum is taken out without too much collateral damage I simply do not care enough.
Also, that is “intervening” on such a low level that it is hardly comparable to Iraq.
Where we do “intervene” it is through diplomatic channels. If they want to join us, they need to behave. We have “inspired” more positive changes in Turkey, the Baltic states, Bulgaria, Romania and others than the US has world wide in the same time and we did it without firing one shot.
To compare that and 1800 policemen that were invited to what the US is doing every 5 to 10 years to a third world country is quite a stretch.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Plus, I am very much for intervening, at least from the air when people start to build concentration/rape camps as the Serbs and Croats did during the wars in the 90s.
Oh…Well, there we go. By the way, Orion. How many died in acts of mass murder in Iraq? As to your question, to where I stand…Who knows, Orion? Perhaps I’m illustrating hypocrisy by playing Devil’s advocate.
I’m sick and tired of people complaining about the US acting as a “World Policing, Interveningt, Nation-building” power, while they themselves practice a double standard. This is laughable. Thank you for participating Lixy, and Orion. I’d invite others to look further into the issue themselves.
Friend Sloth, here Orion was answering–in a characteristically flaccid and self-exculpatory fashion–a question I posed him on 11/30, referring to the upcoming renewal of Balkan misery. I quote myself:
[i]“… Let me " 'splain it to ya.”
[Bill] Clinton, love him as you may, dragged his heals through the Sarajevo crisis, with great loss of life, as Europe dithered. With Kosovo, Brussels demanded the bombing of Belgrade and Clinton acquiesced. When British PM Major pleaded for US combat troops on the ground, Clinton resisted, then acquiesced once more, and Milosevich folded.
[Perhaps you were too young to understand any of this; I hold a negative memory of the German-language press through this period. A fair, but not great, book is Halberstam’s, “War in a Time of Peace.”]
Any lessons here?
Any black and white judgments on the extraterritoreal projection of force by the US and some Allies?
Did Clinton have principles? Did the European pacifists?
Will you stand so principled if, as the UN and NATO dithers once again, warfare starts again in Kosovo and Serbia?[/i]"
Well, NATO and UN are dithering, the Europeans are saying that “they are needed to be there,” and, if needed, the US will do the bombing when Orion decides it is desirable, quoting Orion once more: "Plus, I am very much for intervening, at least from the air when people start to build concentration/rape camps as the Serbs and Croats did during the wars in the 90s.’
Unfortunately, the rape and concentration camps were functioning before the bombing requested by NATO, while Europe watched passively. (Remember the Dutch “guarding” Srbenica?). It was left to the US to project the will of western Europe onto the Serbs.
Will the US be called on to clean up the mess, again?
If not, will French and Austrian and German pilots fly over Kosovo to keep the peace? Will they challenge Russia if it re-supplies “Western Serbia?”
Gee. It feels good to be a anti-interventionist, and to my friends in Europe, enjoy the heat this winter.
[/quote]
If you have any point to make, feel free to post it.
I will gladly answer the one point hidden in there:
Yes, we should have a European strike force, something that can project power beyond our borders. We are already working on it.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Oh, the double standard is showing, Lixy. You are way too transparent.[/quote]
So be it. I don’t hold sending police force and prosecutors to the country around the block to the same standard as the military invasion of a country on the other side of the globe.
Studies have put the deaths as a result of Americans attacking Iraq in excess of a million. Wake me up when the 1,800 policemen start shooting, kidnapping and torturing innocent people in Kosovo.
There is no grand conspiracy to single out US and only protest at its military actions. The people in the world can easily distinguish between a power-hungry state making up excuses to invade oil-rich places, and a concerted and unanimously approved deployment of a police force.
I’ll give you another chance: If you want this thread to go anywhere, list your concerns in a clear manner and explain why you find the recent European move outrageous and “as bad as” the war on Iraq. Spamming the thread with articles, and responding to arguments with one-liners is not the way to go. It may be clear in your head, but you are certainly failing to communicate it. Can you do clearly express your ideas? What do you reproach to the European leaders? In other words, what is the point of this thread?
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, the double standard is showing, Lixy. You are way too transparent.
So be it. I don’t hold sending police force and prosecutors to the country around the block to the same standard as the military invasion of a country on the other side of the globe.
Studies have put the deaths as a result of Americans attacking Iraq in excess of a million. Wake me up when the 1,800 policemen start shooting, kidnapping and torturing innocent people in Kosovo.
There is no grand conspiracy to single out US and only protest at its military actions. The people in the world can easily distinguish between a power-hungry state making up excuses to invade oil-rich places, and a concerted and unanimously approved deployment of a police force.
I’ll give you another chance: If you want this thread to go anywhere, list your concerns in a clear manner and explain why you find the recent European move outrageous and “as bad as” the war on Iraq. Spamming the thread with articles, and responding to arguments with one-liners is not the way to go. It may be clear in your head, but you are certainly failing to communicate it. Can you do clearly express your ideas? What do you reproach to the European leaders? In other words, what is the point of this thread?[/quote]
Edit: Oh forget it. I’ve provided enough of a start for anyone interested in this double standard. I’m very confident in the material I’ve posted and the questions I’ve raised. I’m not going to keep going in circles with you Lixy.
Key themes: Pre-emptive, Nation Building, occupation, intervention, attracting Islamic terrorists(safe haven!), sectarian and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, Uranium shells (yep), terrible post-war security, etc…
Sloth :
Uranium shells??? What kind of depleted hashmium cigs have you been smoking?
As always, just raise questions, stir some uproar and when it’s getting serious you beat it.
It’s such a farce that the staunch self-appointed “T-Men” are always the ones who argue like the PMS women they so loathe.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Sloth :
Uranium shells??? What kind of depleted hashmium cigs have you been smoking?
As always, just raise questions, stir some uproar and when it’s getting serious you beat it.
It’s such a farce that the staunch self-appointed “T-Men” are always the ones who argue like the PMS women they so loathe. [/quote]
What would you like to know? Were you unaware that Uranium shells were used?