Policing the World?

We debate Iraq here, alot. But what about European interventionism and Nation Building? Europeans, are you guys just as bad as the US? It doesn’t get discussed nearly as much, though we here from Europeans about how bad we’re viewed because of our own policies.

"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.”

EU leaders also offered Serbia “accelerated” entry to the European Union.

But Russia has insisted that the EU police mission would be illegal without UN approval, something disputed by Western ambassadors here."

Europe, fuck yeah!..

Lost my link. I’ll look for the source of that quote in a minute. But, shouldn’t we be a bit more equitable here? Obviously we have a number of Europeans on here.

Look, we’ve done the evil US interventionist, nation building, thing to death. Heck, we’ve done the the Middle Eastern interventionist (terrorism, proxy armies, funding of seperatist groups in Africa, Asia, etc.) thing too. What about the EU for a bit? We need to expand this debate. Serbia and the potential independce of Kosovo could be a start of the debate. What else?

Another thing. Why hasn’t the Serbia-Kosovo issue become as popular as the Israeli-Palestinian issue? Sure, it gets mentioned. But not with the same frequency, or level of passion as the I vs. P (clever, I know) debate.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.” [/quote]

It’ll be problematic if they bombed the hell out of the country, made millions refugees, and created a safe haven for terrorism in the region.

Kosovo is neighboring them, unlike Iraq being light-years away from the US. They are not using tanks and jets, nor are they sending in trigger-happy 18 years old kids. They deployed the cops and prosecutors with the blessing of the whole world.

Haven’t seen millions in the streets of Madrid or Paris protesting the deployment, have you?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Another thing. Why hasn’t the Serbia-Kosovo issue become as popular as the Israeli-Palestinian issue? Sure, it gets mentioned. But not with the same frequency, or level of passion as the I vs. P (clever, I know) debate.[/quote]

Because the issue is different.

If you must associate Israel to something, it’ll be like the bunch of Europeans who settled by force on the lands of the Native Americans, or the lands of the South Africans. None were welcome.

The situation in Serbia-Kosovo is nothing like that.

And another thing, the Europeans aren’t torturing people Abu-Ghraib-style in Kosovo, are they?

[quote]lixy wrote:
And another thing, the Europeans aren’t torturing people Abu-Ghraib-style in Kosovo, are they?[/quote]

http://emperors-clothes.com/news/howwill.htm

Kosovo ‘disaster response service’ stands accused of murder and torture

John Sweeney and Jens Holsoe Sunday
March 12, 2000 ‘The Observer’ (London)

Murder, torture and extortion: these are the extraordinary charges made against the UN’s own Kosovo Protection Corps in a confidential United Nations report written for Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

[/quote]

Yeah, I know and that is why I don’t support military interventionism.

What we’re talking about here is the deployment of cops and prosecutors. Not the same thing.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Yeah, I know and that is why I don’t support military interventionism.

What we’re talking about here is the deployment of cops and prosecutors. Not the same thing.[/quote]

Without the original military intervention these cops and prosecutors would not be able to do their job and the slaughter would have continued.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Without the original military intervention these cops and prosecutors would not be able to do their job and the slaughter would have continued.[/quote]

Ok.

Read the OP. He/she complained that hundreds of European cops and prosecutors dispatched to Kosovo isn’t talked about and tries to compare it to the US attack and invasion of Iraq. Keep that in mind.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
We debate Iraq here, alot. But what about European interventionism and Nation Building? Europeans, are you guys just as bad as the US? It doesn’t get discussed nearly as much, though we here from Europeans about how bad we’re viewed because of our own policies.

"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.”

EU leaders also offered Serbia “accelerated” entry to the European Union.

But Russia has insisted that the EU police mission would be illegal without UN approval, something disputed by Western ambassadors here."

[/quote]

They want us there.

At least they want us there more than not having us there and not being able to join us.

Is it our fault that we just do our thing and people like all that peace, prosperity and freedom?

No torturing, rule of law, habeas corpus, that sort of thing makes people want to be a part of it, especially the ones who have seen how thin the veneer of civilization really is.

It works almost like a shining city on a hill.

However, do not despair, with a few minor adjustments to some of your laws the US could well become a candidate for a EU expansion.

We´d prefer Canada though.

Whatever, if they vouch for you we´ll make a package deal.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.”

It’ll be problematic if they bombed the hell out of the country, made millions refugees, and created a safe haven for terrorism in the region.

Kosovo is neighboring them, unlike Iraq being light-years away from the US. They are not using tanks and jets, nor are they sending in trigger-happy 18 years old kids. They deployed the cops and prosecutors with the blessing of the whole world.

Haven’t seen millions in the streets of Madrid or Paris protesting the deployment, have you?[/quote]

Well, actually bombs did get dropped at one point, before the occupation. And now, Christians in Kosovo are suffering under a cleansing campaign. So, now we’ll watch as Kosovo gains it’s independence, chases out the last of it’s christian population, burns down the the last church…So yeah, refugees and terrorism.

No, I haven’t seen millions in Madrid or Paris protesting. For all their talk about the US, those very same Europeans are themselves interventionists, occupiers, and nation-builders. The hypocrisy.

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
We debate Iraq here, alot. But what about European interventionism and Nation Building? Europeans, are you guys just as bad as the US? It doesn’t get discussed nearly as much, though we here from Europeans about how bad we’re viewed because of our own policies.

"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.”

EU leaders also offered Serbia “accelerated” entry to the European Union.

But Russia has insisted that the EU police mission would be illegal without UN approval, something disputed by Western ambassadors here."

They want us there.

At least they want us there more than not having us there and not being able to join us.

Is it our fault that we just do our thing and people like all that peace, prosperity and freedom?

No torturing, rule of law, habeas corpus, that sort of thing makes people want to be a part of it, especially the ones who have seen how thin the veneer of civilization really is.

It works almost like a shining city on a hill.

However, do not despair, with a few minor adjustments to some of your laws the US could well become a candidate for a EU expansion.

We´d prefer Canada though.

Whatever, if they vouch for you we´ll make a package deal.

[/quote]

Oh, yeah. Those christians in Kosovo are loving you guys. Step up that independence. Maybe the muslims can finish of the remaining churches at a faster pace.

Why opposite Policies for Christian Serbs and Kosovo Albanians?

Mary Mostert, May 11, 2006

On May 5 the Washington Times published an editorial entitled “Bullying Belgrade” which made the point that those same Europeans that were opposed to and terrified of Saddam Hussein, who used chemical warfare on both the Kurds in Iraq and invaded both Iran and Kuwait, have taken a very strong on “the much less threatening and mostly supplicant government of Serbia.”

The Washington Times then repeats, as if true, the so far totally unproven charge that the man the European Union wants Serbia to hand over to the Hague to be tried for “genocide,” Ratko Mladic, has not been handed over to them to take the place of the trial farce of the now dead Slobodan Milosevic.

Mladic is charged with “the slaughter of 8,000 Muslims at Srebrenica in 1995 and other wartime horrors.” Since that time, over 3000 of those supposed slaughtered Muslims in Srebrenica have voted in Bosnia. On the other hand, Europeans generally condemn President George W. Bush for removing dictator Saddam Hussein as leader of Iraq even though he used poison gas on the Kurds in 40 Iraqi towns in 1988, which caused over 5000 deaths within hours, and blinded, maimed, disfigured and caused lingering deaths to another 10,000 and invaded both Iran and Iraq.

Serbia has NEVER invaded another country. An elected Serbian president of Yugoslavia back in the 1990s did try to stop the disintegration of the country. However, it was, after all, the European Union siding with several of the six ethnic “nations” that made up Yugoslavia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro that made the disintegration possible. While the European Union ignored the ethnic cleansing of 250,000 Serbs from the Krajina region of Croatia in 1995 and continues to ignore it more than 10 years later, it is still the largest forced displacement of a population since World War II. Serbs are the largest number of refugees in Europe, according to the United Nations, still today.

Alex, a reader who lives in Belgrade, pointed out the amazing contradictions between what the West CLAIMS to believe about freedom and independence and what our ACTIONS have been in denying self-determination to Serbs while militarily implementing self-determination for the Bosnian Muslims, who announced in 1983 their intention of creating Europe’s first “Islamic state.”

While the rest of the world seems to have either never known that, or forgotten it, the Serbs in Bosnia-Hercegovina have not forgotten it and are watching that plan being implemented. The Dayton Peace Agreement guaranteed to the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina sovereignty as the Republic of Srpska. That sovereignty, Alex wrote, is being “reduced on a daily basis, little by little. License plates and currency have already become the same for the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina. The so-called Bosnian state bodies which function on the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina, are given more and more power. Soon, the international community plans to create a “unified” army for the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina (after so much bloodshed, is that even possible?). Some international circles are already demanding the revision of the Dayton Peace Agreement, which guarantees the existence of the Republic of Srpska.”

The Serbs are not newcomers to Bosnia-Herzegovina. They have lived there for centuries. The Republic of Srpska was created as a direct answer to Bosnia’s independence from Yugoslavia and is based on past experience of the Serbs who, Alex says “remember what they have been through in WW 2 only too well, and they did not want that genocide to be repeated, thus, the RS was created solely for the protection and survival of the Serbian people in Bosnia.”

The Serbs are bit the only uneasy minority in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Croat population also wants the right of self-determination to vote to attack their area to Croatia. The Serbs was to join with Serbia. This is illogically opposed by the Western nations, even the United States, probably because it would make Serbia a stronger nation.

Based on past Serb experience, “The Republic of Srpska was created simply as a reaction to Islamic separatism, and it was the only way to protect the Serbian people in Bosnia. If the RS had not been created, not a single Serb would be left alive in Bosnia today. We see that in places that are no longer under Serbian control, such as in Mostar, Tuzla, Sarajevo… Very few Serbs live there now, as opposed to the situation before the war. Bosnian Muslims, who accuse Serbia proper as being an “aggressor,” fail to mention the regular army troops of the Republic of Croatia, which were active in Bosnia. They also fail to mention the Mujahedins from Arab countries, who have strong ties with the Al Qaeda network, many of whom have received Bosnian citizenships, passports etc.”

According to Yugoslavia’s last census in 1991, its population was 23,528,230, with 35% or 8.5 million of that population being Serbs. In Serbia and Montenegro today, there is a population of 10,832,545, 62% of which are Serbian, 16.5% are Albania and only 5.5% are Montenegrin, Hungarians 3.3% and other ethnicities making up the other 15+ % being other nationalities.

Alex observes that both Bosnia and Kosovo remain “de facto protectorates of the international community,” with the Office of the High Representative (OHR) in Bosnia, and the UNMIK chief in Kosovo, having basically dictatorial power to veto any decision made by parliament. While 95% of the 1.4 million people in

“While, in the RS, 95% of the people (1,391,593 ) are Bosnian Serbs, in Kosovo 95% of the people are Kosovo Albanians.” Both hahave elements of a state, yet the international community uses opposite standards for the two entities.

While, in the RS, 95% of the people of the Republic of Srpska are Bosnian Serbs, in Kosovo 95% of its approximately 2 million people are Kosovo Albanians. Yet, the international community takes exactly opposite positions in the right of each group to hold a referendum on independence. The Albanian Muslims will have that right while the Serbian Christians will be denied that there IS such a right,.

The world has heard much of “Serb atrocities” but almost no mention has been made of “the crimes of Muslims against Serbs,” observes Alex. During the mid-1990s, the Arab mujahedins beheaded Serbs, roasted Serbs on fire, created Muslim prison camps “such as Tarcin, Silos, Viktor Bubanj barracks, Zenica Youth Correction Facility, Zenica Music School and other places where many Serbs were tortured and killed” … In fact, there very first victims of the Bosnian war were members of a Serbian family at an Orthodox wedding procession.

I believe the only reason why fair-minded Americans are taking theseremarkably opposite positions on these two almost identical situations is because they have not been told the truth.
http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=article&articleid=13908

Remember how intervention in Iraq created a terror base and safe haven?! Oh, the double standard when it comes to the Serbia-Kosovo issue…

KiM Info Newsletter 10-05-07

FOUR OUT OF SIX ISLAMIST TERROR PLOTTERS IN US KOSOVO ALBANIANS

WASHINGTON POST (USA)

Plot illustrates Balkans’ role as Islamist foothold

Prosecutors described the men as “radical Islamists,” with four coming from the province of Kosovo in the former Yugoslavia, where the ethnic Albanian population of Muslims fought one of the several wars that grew out of the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s. Suspect Agron Abdullahu, who faces only weapons violations in the case, was described in court papers as a “sniper in Kosovo.” U.S. officials said the Islamists were motivated by al Qaeda sympathies.

By Bill Gertz
Published May 9, 2007

The six foreign-born Muslims accused of planning a shooting attack at the U.S. military base included four ethnic Albanians, and U.S. officials say their arrests highlight how Islamist groups are using the Balkans region to help in recruiting and financing terrorism.

Prosecutors described the men as “radical Islamists,” with four coming from the province of Kosovo in the former Yugoslavia, where the ethnic Albanian population of Muslims fought one of the several wars that grew out of the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s. Suspect Agron Abdullahu, who faces only weapons violations in the case, was described in court papers as a “sniper in Kosovo.”

U.S. officials said the Islamists were motivated by al Qaeda sympathies and that ringleader Mohamad Ibrahim Shnewer, who was born in Jordan, had copies of the wills of two September 11 terrorists on his laptop computer.

The other suspect in the group – accused of seeking to kill hundreds of soldiers at Fort Dix, N.J. – was born in Turkey.

U.S. officials said intelligence reports from the Balkans have identified a support structure for several terrorist groups, including al Qaeda, among the Muslim communities in Albania and in the former Yugoslavia, including Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo and Macedonia.

“When it comes to extremists, we’re talking about very, very small pockets in Albania, as well as among the ethnic Albanian populations in Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia and other parts of the Balkans,” said one official with access to intelligence reports.

The official pointed out that the Albanian government has been supportive of U.S. efforts to counter Islamic terrorist activities, including curbing logistics and financial aid, and working to prevent terrorists from receiving training and weapons.

But a Congressional Research Service report produced in 2005 said instability in Albania during the 1990s gave al Qaeda a “foothold” there.

“Poor internal security, lax border controls, and high rates of crime produced an environment conducive to terrorist activity,” said the report by CRS specialist Steven Woehrel. “Some foreign Islamic extremists used Albania as a safe haven and gained Albanian citizenship.”

Balkan Muslims also have been targets of al Qaeda recruitment efforts because they have an easier time blending in or evading U.S. and European security measures and border controls, which often are geared to identifying Middle Eastern extremists.

The State Department’s latest annual report on international terrorism said the Albanian government has taken steps to stop terrorism financing but noted that “government and police forces faced substantial challenges to fully enforce border security and combat organized crime and corruption.”

The Albanian government identified seven financial holdings by terrorist groups last year that were frozen.

Israeli government sources have said that agents for the Palestinian militant group Hamas, as well as the Shi’ite Hezbollah, have been actively buying weapons from organized-crime groups in the Balkans.

Bosnia also has a large Muslim community that in the past has provided a base of support for al Qaeda and other terrorists. After the 1995 Dayton Peace Accords, most Islamic radicals, who were helping Bosnia’s Muslims fend off the Orthodox Christian Serbs, left the Balkans, but some remained behind.

“It is estimated that several hundred former fighters stayed behind in Bosnia after the war and became Bosnian citizens by marrying Bosnian women,”

the CRS report said. “Some al Qaeda operatives in Bosnia reportedly had connections to members of Bosnia’s intelligence service.”

European intelligence agencies estimate that as many as 750 Muslim former fighters remain hidden in Bosnia and have acted as a supply network to send guns, money and documents to terrorists passing through the region.

Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and other al Qaeda leaders often mention Bosnia as an important example of jihad, or holy war.

“Terrorist recruiting videos often include footage of combat in Bosnia,” the CRS report said.

According to the Associated Press, a joint U.S.-Croatian intelligence report produced last year stated that Algerian extremists were active in the Balkans. Bosnia’s intelligence service last year published information on 15 extremists living in that country: eight Algerians, two Syrians, two Tunisians and an Egyptian, Kuwaiti and Yemeni.

Officials also said the nongovernmental organization Revival of Islamic Heritage Society remains active in the region and spreads the radical Wahhabi form of Islam that animates al Qaeda.


ADN KRONOS INTERNATIONAL (ITALY)

Belgrade, 9 May (AKI) - The arrest of four ethnic Albanians, a Jordanian and a Turk in the United States on Tuesday on suspicion of planning a terrorist attack at the United States army base in Fort Dix, New Jersey, confirms the existence of a “white Al-Qaeda”, Balkan terrorism expert Darko Trifunovic told Adnkronos International (AKI) on Wednesday. Trifunovic said the arrests showed “white Al-Qaeda at work.” He compared the Fort Dix plot to a February attack in Salt Lake City when a Bosnian Muslim youth, Sulejman Talovic went on a shopping mall shooting rampage. Six people including Talovic were killed another four were injured in the attack.

Trifunovic, a professor at Belgrade University’s Faculty of Security Studies, was the first to develop a theory of “white Al-Qaeda”, which he said was introduced to the Balkans during 1992-1995 civil war in Bosnia when thousands of ‘mujahadeen’ from Islamic countries came to fight on the side of local Muslims. Many mujahadeen have remained in the country, and are believed to been indoctrinating local youths with radical Islam and even operating terrorist training camps, Trifunovic said, quoting western and Balkans intelligence sources.

Al-Qaeda has adopted a new tactics of using white European youths for terrorist attacks, “because of their non-Arabic appearance,” Trifunovic told

AKI. “The strategy is to indoctrinate or poison the hearts and minds of youngsters to psyche them up for the future terror operations,” Trifunovic said.

“And that is exactly what is now happening in the United States,” he added.

The US authorities arrested three ethnic Albanian brothers from Serbia’s breakaway Kosovo province, Sain, Elvir and Dritan Duka, another ethnic Albanian, Agron Abdulahu, a Jordanian, Mohamad Ibrahim Shnewer, and Serdar Tatar, a Turk.

Michael Drewniak, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney’s office in Newark, New Jersey, said the suspects “were planning an attack on Fort Dix in which they would kill as many soldiers as possible”. Drewniak described the group as “Islamist militants from the former Yugoslavia and the Middle East,” who apparently had no ties to international terrorist organisations, but were organised on a local level.

Several of the suspects said they were ready to kill and die ‘‘in the name of Allah,’’ according to court papers. The defendants, all men in their 20s, reportedly include a pizza deliveryman suspected of using his job to scout out Fort Dix, three builders and taxi-driver. They were arrested while trying to buy AK-47 assault weapons and M-16s from an informant, authorities said.

Many Balkan terrorism experts have been warning for years that Al-Qaeda had active cells in Muslim-majority Kosovo and a training camp in the village of Ropotovo. Kosovo has been under United Nations control 1999, when NATO airstrikes drove Serbian forces out of the province amid ethnic fighting and allegations of gross human rights abuses.

International officials have ignored the warnings and minimised the danger Al-Qaeda poses, according to Balkan analysts.

In a joint NATO-Bulgarian report in March 2005, the head of Bulgarian state security Kirco Kirov cited Kosovo as a “direct source of regional instability and a hub for international terrorism.” The report called for joint action by all European countries.

The US authorities said that Abdulahu was a sharp shooter in the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) before fleeing to the US. Fort Dix is a training ground for American soldiers and reservists before they are sent to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in 1999 it served as a shelter for thousands of ethnic Albanian refugees from Kosovo.

Serb immigrants’ web sites noted that US officials carefully avoided identifying the four ethnic Albanians as such, calling them only “Islamic militants from former Yugoslavia.” A commentator on the SerbBlog said that Washington, which backs independence for Kosovo, is embarrassed by the discovery of the Fort Dix plot, “because the truth might mess up the PR for Kosovo Albanians getting to rip off a piece of Serbia to create their own country - a move that has the full support of the US State Department.”

Belgrade military analyst Zoran Dragisic said the Fort Dix plot “once again shows that Islamist terrorism is highly organised - from Kosovo to America - and the US intelligence services know this very well.” Dragsic expressed doubt, however, that the latest incident would change the American stance on Kosovo, “because Washington doesn’t change its positions easily.”


3 in Dix plot from pro-U.S. Balkans area

May 9, 2007 By GARENTINA KRAJA and WILLIAM J. KOLE,
Associated Press Writers

Three Muslim brothers who allegedly helped plot to kill soldiers at a U.S. Army base have roots in one of Europe’s most pro-American corners - a region that remains grateful to the United States for ending the Kosovo war.

Dritan Duka, 28, Shain Duka, 26, and Eljvir Duka, 23, who were arrested in New Jersey this week in what U.S. authorities said was a bungled scheme to blow up and gun down soldiers at Fort Dix, were born in Debar, a remote town on Macedonia’s rugged border with Albania.

Relatives in the ethnic Albanian-populated town of 15,000 said they had not seen the brothers in more than two decades, but expressed disbelief Wednesday that the three would attack the United States.

“We all have been supporters of America. We were always thankful to America for its support during the wars in Kosovo and Macedonia,” a cousin, Elez Duka, 29, told The Associated Press.

“These are simple, ordinary people and they’ve got nothing to do with terrorism. I expect their release and I expect an apology,” he said, waving his hands. “I see injustice. These are ridiculous charges.”

His indignation captured the mood among Muslims in Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania - places that have repeatedly expressed gratitude to the United States for intervening in the 1998-99 Kosovo war and a 2001 ethnic conflict that pushed Macedonia to the brink of civil war.

Albania was among the first countries to answer Washington’s call for troops to help support U.S.-led military offensives in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In Pristina, the capital of Kosovo, which many expect to gain independence from Serbia later this year, U.S. flags are commonplace. The main avenue is Bill Clinton Boulevard, renamed to honor the president who ordered airstrikes that halted former Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic’s brutal crackdown in the province.

Like many Europeans, ethnic Albanians staged a big demonstration after the U.S. led the invasion of Iraq in 2003, but theirs was a pro-America rally, not an anti-war protest.

In and out of Debar, people struggled to reconcile those feelings with the indictment of the three brothers and a fourth ethnic Albanian suspect, Agron Abdullahu, 24. Two other men also were arrested: Mohamad Ibrahim Shnewer, 22, a Palestinian born in Jordan, and Serdar Tatar, 23, born in Turkey.

It was unclear whether Abdullahu also came from Debar, but U.S. authorities said he served as a sniper during the Kosovo war, which pitted ethnic Albanian separatists against Serbian troops loyal to Milosevic.

U.S. authorities have not given details of the alleged plot, or said if a date had been set for an attack. They said only that the accused were training and buying weapons.

Kosovo Prime Minister Agim Ceku wrote a letter to the U.S. mission in Pristina on Wednesday expressing the “extraordinary feeling that Kosovo’s people have for the U.S.” Ceku also denounced what he called “the disgusting idea” that Albanians could be involved in an attack “against a nation that has been very generous so far.”

The Duka brothers’ grandmother, Naze Duka, was visibly upset as word of their arrests spread through the modest two-story brick houses in Debar, about 110 miles southwest of the Macedonian capital, Skopje.

“America is good - you work, you earn money there,” the 88-year-old said. “I have no idea where this all came from. How did this happen?”

“I don’t believe that my kids would do anything like that. I know my kids - they were committed to supporting their families, their house,” she added.

Elez Duka, the brothers’ cousin, said their father took the family to the U.S. via Italy in 1986 or 1987.

American officials say the brothers were in the U.S. illegally. The cousin said they had not been back because they didn’t have the necessary papers for returning to the U.S.

He said the brothers occasionally phoned. Over the past two years, Elez Duka said, his cousins told him they had grown long beards and had become more devoted to Islam, but he insisted they were incapable of involvement in a terrorist plot.

“They live in America and grew up in the American culture. How can you say they are anti-American? These accusations are totally unfounded,” he said.

Few ethnic Albanians embrace militant Islam. Most are moderate or secular.

Even those in Debar who described themselves as devout Muslims denounced the Fort Dix plot.

“They must have been crazy. They shouldn’t dare throw a stone at America,”

said Rrahmi Duka, 70, a distant relative of the brothers, as a loudspeaker blared Muslim prayers in Debar’s main square.

“Who saved us? America,” he said. “We are in America’s hands.”


Feds say terror attack was at hand

By DAVID PORTER, Associated Press Writer
May 9, 2007

Federal authorities said Wednesday that a group of Muslim men suspected of plotting to massacre U.S. soldiers at Fort Dix were on the verge of carrying out their plan when they were arrested this week.

“I think they were in the last stage of planning,” U.S. Attorney Christopher Christie said. "They had training, they had maps, and I think they were very close to moving on this.

“Our view was they had pretty much gotten to concluding the planning phase of this and were looking to obtain heavy weaponry - and if not from us, they were going to try to obtain it elsewhere.”

Though it was not clear when the alleged attack was to take place, members of the group were arrested Monday night in Cherry Hill as they tried to buy

AK-47 assault weapons, M-16s and other weapons from an FBI informant, authorities said.

The men - four born in the former Yugoslavia, one from Jordan and one from Turkey - lived in Philadelphia and its suburbs with their immediate and extended families. Three were roofers, one drove a cab, and the two others worked at food stores.

The six - Mohamad Ibrahim Shnewer, 22; Dritan “Anthony” or “Tony” Duka, 28; Shain Duka, 26; Eljvir “Elvis” Duka, 23; Serdar Tatar, 23; and Agron Abdullahu, 24 - were ordered held without bail. Three were in the United States illegally; two had green cards allowing them to stay in this country permanently; and the sixth is a U.S. citizen.

Abdullahu was familiar with Fort Dix because it was the first place he landed when arriving in the United States as a refugee from Kosovo, according to a law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.

The United States allowed thousands of refugees into the United States after it intervened in the 1998-99 Kosovo war. Abdullahu arrived at Fort Dix as a teenager in 1999 as part of a group of about 4,400 refugees from Kosovo, officials said.

The investigation began more than a year ago after a New Jersey store clerk was asked to transfer a videotape onto a DVD. The tape showed 10 men shooting weapons at a firing range and calling for jihad, prosecutors said.

The 10 included the six men under arrest, authorities said.

Christie would not comment on the identities of the four other men in the video or say whether they were considered suspects. But he said the investigation was still going on.

One of the defendants, Tatar, worked at his father’s pizzeria and made deliveries to the base, using the opportunity to scout out Fort Dix for an attack, authorities said.

In an interview with the AP on Wednesday, Tatar’s father, Muslim Tatar, 54, denied that his son had made deliveries to Fort Dix. However, Christie said the younger Tatar spoke of delivering pizzas on the tapes made by informants.


Top US diplomat says UN Security Council to act soon on independence for Kosovo

Associated Press: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 2:01 PM

BERLIN-An upcoming UN Security Council resolution that paves the way for Kosovo to achieve independence from Serbia will include a Russian proposal aimed at helping the remaining Serb population in the province, a top U.S.

diplomat said Wednesday.

Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns said the resolution had strong backing from the United States and a majority of the members of the Security Council. It would give Kosovo what amounts to limited, supervised independence, to be followed by formal recognition of its independence by other countries.

“We think there is now majority support in the Security Council for that plan, in fact, very strong support for that plan,” Burns told journalists at the U.S. Embassy in Berlin.

He said the US and other members would “put forward a resolution in the coming days that will lead, we hope, to a vote this month and to the independence of Kosovo.”

Kosovo has been under U.N. supervision since a 1999 NATO-led air war that halted a Serbian government crackdown on ethnic Albanian rebels. The Albanian majority demands independence, which Serbia opposes, backed by Moscow, which objects to imposing a solution over Serbia’s objections.

There has been speculation that Moscow may exercise its Security Council veto to block the proposal.

Burns said the text of the resolution sought to address Moscow’s objections by calling for safeguards for the remaining Serbian population, and by setting up an international envoy whose job would be to encourage the return of Serbs who have fled to return.

He said the resolution was “the best way to assure the majority population, the 95 percent of the population that are Kosovo Albanian, that we recognize that they have made the necessary reforms over the last eight years… that would merit them becoming an independent state with an independent government.”

Burns said the Security Council lacked authority to declare Kosovo independent outright, but that the resolution would pave the way for other countries to recognize the Kosovo government one by one.

The resolution would ask the EU to take over a lead role in civil administration and implementing reforms such as protection of minority rights while NATO provides border and internal security.

Some 200,000 Serbs and other minorities fled during a period of revenge attacks by ethnic Albanians that followed the crackdown by Serb forces. Only a small number of Serbs have returned since then, and many of them have faced hostility and attacks.

[quote]lixy wrote:
And another thing, the Europeans aren’t torturing people Abu-Ghraib-style in Kosovo, are they?[/quote]

No, they just look the other way as muslims do so in Kosovo.

Interesting Christian view. Sound familiar? Trampled religious icons? Occupation? I guess it’s ok since Christians aren’t ballsy enough to blow themselves and others up in considerable numbers? And of course because the Europeans deemed this a righteous cause.

[i]The Cry of Serbs of
Kosovo and Metohia

Blessed are Thou o Lord, God of our fathers, righteous are all Thy works, truthful art Thou in all Thyne endeavors, unswerving are Thyne paths, and Thyne judgment based on truth and redemption.

Righteous and fair are thy judgments and admonitions for the sake of our salvation, as well as all that thou hast wrought upon us and our people in this land because of our transgressions. Within Thy realm of truth and justice, Thou hast handed us over to lawless enemies, hateful apostates and domestic atheists. Thou has enslaved us by delivering us to unjust foreign masters, to a global tyrant, more malevolent than any other upon this earth.

“Thou hast become angry, and we too transgressed”, said one of Thyne servants from antiquity. It is more appropriate, for us to say: “we transgressed, and Thou becamst angry as a result”. Truly we did sin; we engaged in lawlessness, we retreated from Thou and Thyne precepts. We erred in all things. Thy redemptive commandments, we failed to keep and obey, as Thou commandest us for our salvation’s sake.

And now Lord, words dare not pass our lips, as we have become objects of shame and ridicule before the world; before the entire human race. Because, dear Lord, we have been reduced and diminished more than any other nation, humiliated across our own land, from west to east. All because of the wickedness of our leaders, the tyrannical arrogance of our temporal rulers, and because of our many moral lapses and sins.

As our father, the Patriarch has said, today across Kosovo and Metohia we find ourselves: "fleeing, night and day with our dispossessed people, from place to place, like a vessel tossed on the open seas, scurrying across the vast expanse, waiting for the sun to set, for the day to fold, and this dark night to pass, like the wintry calamity which has befallen us. For there is no one to shield us, or to free us from our sorrow. Our pain trebled, weeping, we beseech Thee: “How much longer, o Lord, wilt Thou neglect us? How long will Thou continue to arm Thyself against Thyne legacy? Arise, o Lord, from Thy slumber. Why does Thou turn Thy face away from us? And again we ask, arise Lord, succor us in Thy Name’s sake. Our sobbing continues unabated; weeping has overtaken our tears, and still we do not receive help from any quarter”.

Because, All-seeing and Mighty Lord, there is not amongst us today, a prince or a leader. Not an irreproachable Serb, nor a sacrifice pure and unstained, nor a genuine offering from a blameless heart. We have all strayed from Thy path. Because we’ve distanced ourselves from Thee, because we’ve left Thee, the Wellspring of Life, and sought other newly-dug wells, where the water was tainted even before it ran dry, from which we’re now being offered muddy water and sludge in an attempt to poison us with the venom of worldly serpents and global vipers. Thou has rightfully imposed upon us Thyne neglect. May this deserved estrangement from Thee and Thyne people, as well as from ourselves, in our country within our own temporal flesh, never recur.

Thy houses of worship have been desecrated and torched in our country; sacred monastic sanctuaries razed and destroyed. Pure crosses and icons of Thy Holy saints and martyrs have been shattered. Trampled underfoot, first by domestic atheists, and now by the foreign heretics and multifarious occupiers. And so today, as in the time of the Turks, in this Holy Land of the ancient shrines of our fathers, " a solitary Christ extends his arms, awaiting His absent congregation". It’s not there Lord, because your flock has been betrayed and sold; turned over to wolves, handed over to inhumane sycophants and subjugators. It has been sold off, as in the days of slavery, left to the whims and mercy of callous foreigners and murderous Albanian arsonists.

The devastation is everywhere. From the Holy Savior’s church in Pec, which is once again surrounded by janissaries bent on looting and setting it ablaze, and it continues on both sides of the River Drim throughout Metohia, which has been torched, and its Serbian population exiled. Then across the burned out and destroyed Nerodimlje district, to the fire-gutted Binca Monastery in the Morava plain. With each passing day, attacks become more frequent on the ancient Serbian historic sites of Izmornik and Novo Brdo. From Mt. Sar and the fire-bombed monastery of Holy Trinity in Musitiste, and St. Mark’s in Korisa, to the charred Serbian ruins of Podkaljaja in Prizren, and across to King Nemanja’s Hoca where Zociste monastery has been leveled to its foundations. From the new concentration camp for Serbs in Orahovac, to Goles which was demolished by NATO bombing, across to King Milutin’s Pristina depopulated with sword and flame, to Prince Lazar’s Samodreza church, across the Lab river basin and Bajgora.

Herein lies our new Kosovo Crucifixion, just as six hundred years before a great marble Cross was erected over the same Kosovo Battlefield. Then our fathers, though physically defeated, remained spiritually unconquered.

They built the memorial cross and inscribed it with these words as a living testament to their faith, humanity and heroism: “O man, who treads upon this Serbian soil, whosoever or whatsoever you may be, when you come upon this field which is Kosovo, all across it you will see the skeletons of the dead. Among them, you will behold me, in stony form, a Cross marker, standing erect as a banner in the midst of the battlefield. Here fell a great ruler; a marvel of a man and Serbian Czar, by the name of Lazar. He was a great and pious prince, a pillar of devotion, a man of deep wisdom and fiery intellect. He was a shield to strangers and those in need of refuge. He provided nourishment for the hungry and compassion for the lowly. And was a comfort and solace for the grieving and one who loved all that Christ desired”.

And now, compassionate Lord, after six centuries, a pseudo-czar and a false prophet from Gazimestan rules over us. More like a Muslim convert than a Serb, he proclaimed that there would be no betrayal, even though we knew that treachery had already been committed and was now merely being revealed. With such a godless leader and pseudo-Serb, we’re left to dwell “on this earth, but without land, on Kosovo but without Kosovo, of Milos Obilic yet without him, by ourselves but without ourselves”. Possessing honor and reputation, we have been left without either, because that godless communist, that beast and turncoat, trampled and soiled them. Being what he is, in the words of a Serbian poet, he was not able, and cannot fight to defend Kosovo, because: “neither a Turk nor apostate can defend your people, nor an arsonist protect against fire, nor a Pharaoh deliver you from slavery. A false savior will readily lead you to Babylon and into a new captivity”. That is how this pyromaniac who torched his own home and others’, impostor and traitor, has rapidly led us to this hellish impasse. He has brought us to a place where innocent victims lie unburied, massacred children remain unmourned, holy shrines desecrated and burnt, where an entire people have been scorned, trampled and humiliated.

His ten-year reign of insanity and inhumanity has been attributed to my people, granted, an imperfect people but Thyne nonetheless dear Lord, with a conscience and a capacity for repentance. Just like this dictator are the foreign tyrants and hypocrites. Refined yet callous are these barbarians of the pseudo-Christian West, who are even more cunning, insincere and deceitful. They’re happy with this outcast from God such as he is, because he provides them the opportunity to inflict their inhumanity on us as they have in the past upon other small peoples and nations around the world. They view him as they see themselves, then judge our people the same way. They, and their domestic sycophants, idolatrous worshippers of Esperia, the New Demonia, mock us because we consider ourselves to be God’s people. Because we believe in Justice and God’s Truth and still adhere to our fathers’ covenant with Heaven, and venerate the Kosovo sacrifice made by our Martyrs and New Martyrs.

It is quite just and true, what the Serbian people of Kosovo today know and feel: " God is angry at the Serbs, because of their many mortal sins. Our leaders trampled upon the Law, and chose folly to be their guiding light. Our own leaders, God’s curse be on their souls, carved the empire into little pieces; our own leaders, miserable cowards, thus became the betrayers of our nation".

For five centuries we suffered under the foreign yoke, never completely liberated, but neither totally enslaved, nor alienated from God or ourselves. We suffered from invasions and onslaughts of every evil, from East and West, but our greatest suffering occurred during the most recent fifty-year occupation by those estranged from God and the people. The Serbian nation has suffered at the hands of the godless and inhuman communists and neo-communists, who became rulers with the help of Western atheists and antichrists. It was from the West, and because of it, that the current and most terrible evil has been visited upon us. From these barbarians of the eerily radiant, and simultaneously obscuring West, neither liberty nor humanity has ever emanated, but rather only so-called “new world orders”, new enslavements replacing previous ones, such as this present tyranny and bombing. From Easter to Easter, and from Good Friday to Good Friday. Their last three-month NATO-bombing of innocent and enslaved people was grandly proclaimed, by our domestic tyrant, as well as the foreign tyrants, each for themselves, as their victory. So then Lord, Righteous Judge, who was defeated?

O Lord of the Heavenly Host and Judge above earthly tyrants. We, the innocent people, the enslaved captives, are the defeated ones.

We sit Lord on the banks of the rivers of Kosovo and Metohia: Lab and Sitnica, Drim and Bistrica, and weep like Thy people of Israel once did in Babylon. They won’t even offer us pure water to drink, nor allow us to harvest what remains of our wheat, nor to bury our murdered kin, nor sing our ancient Kosovo hymns. Tearfully we eat our stale bread, while being told about abundant humanitarian aid. And who can receive such “help” with an open heart, when it’s offered conditionally; when we are blackmailed in exchange for a meal. In many places there is no one to distribute it to, except for an old man or woman here or there, evicted from their homes or apartments. If they’ve somehow managed to survive, in places like Podujevo, Pristina, Stimlje or Prizren, they’re maltreated, with wounds and bruises on their bodies and on their souls. “Three elderly women remain, holding up the Cross in Kosovo, out of three hundred thousand Serbs who lived here”, cries one half-blind grandmother as she is guarded by tanks of the mighty NATO super-power!

Two thirds of the Serbian population have been expelled and exiled from the “ethnically cleansed” towns and villages of Kosovo and Metohia. “From Cacane, brother, to Zvecane”, the Serbs have been virtually eliminated, much as they were during the Turkish occupation, or as in Ustasha-run Croatia. All the while, the “humanitarian” visitors from the West and their sighted, yet unseeing diplomatic escorts keep asking: “How many of you still remain?” The much tormented Bishop of Kosovo-Metohia, “a sad orphan without friend or kinfolk”, replies with bitterness and tears: “We are few in number, yet we are not counted”.

A global military force of massive proportions has come to Kosovo, for the stated purpose of stopping aggression and ethnic persecution. Since its arrival however, unspeakable acts of aggression have been perpetrated against Serbs; murders and acts of destruction committed, yet unacknowledged by the world community. During the NATO bombing campaign, bombs and rockets virtually destroyed the wheat fields and vineyards, leaving no grain for communion bread, or wine for the Holy Liturgy. The plains of Kosovo and Metohia are furrowed with bomb craters, farm fields and gardens are poisoned with depleted uranium, and human souls have been embittered and quashed by the inhumanity of it all.

Under the auspices of KFOR “peacemakers”, unforeseen evil and aggression against an entire people has intensified to unprecedented levels. The end to this suffering is nowhere in sight as KFOR refuses to use its power to stop the criminal Albanian rampage. How can they, when the Albanian gang leaders are allies and collaborators in NATO’s “new world order”. It’s a partnership in neocolonialism; a new way to control the world through drugs, weapons, money, and various other forms of criminality, all under the label of “demo(n)cracy”.

Wherever these barbarians from the West have gone, they’ve brought war and misfortune. They claim to be bearers of peace and human rights, but bring only greater misery and injustice. They do not resolve problems, but magnify and prolong them. They appear refined but are vulgar, seemingly friendly but are brutal, much like the tools and weapons of their trade, and are just as inhumane as their anti-Christian godlessness.

They claim to be an example for the world and a measure of all things. But they do not have the means to measure, nor desire to know Justice or Truth. They make grand pronouncements about the “new order” of things in the world, but they are faded and worn-out like their sins and inhumanity. Their hearts are decayed, gnawed away by the suspicion that they may appear unsuccessful and lose the confidence (or in their words “credibility of NATO”) to lead all of humanity and be its harbingers of joy. Their “new world order” is nothing more than age-old subjugation, re-cycled greed, self-serving interest, and power lust. All in an effort to dominate the world and re-shape it in their own image. Anyone opposed to their plans and designs is proclaimed an outcast, labeled as intolerant, or “uncooperative” and as such deemed unworthy of life or existence. They constantly talk about liberty, but they themselves are slaves to base passions and are unconcealed idolaters of false gods. Wherever they trod, “they leave behind a stench of inhumanity”. They constantly shout: “Peace, peace!”, but lack it within their own hearts and consciences. That is why they bring disorder wherever they go. They only posses one single argument and single approach to peace; the use of bombs, tanks, NATO, and occupation. War is in their soul and they sow it wherever they go. When they choose not to declare war, they wage “air campaigns”, which is their euphemism for the destruction of nations and peoples with uranium-depleted bombs and infernal rockets. And all this is deemed as representing “European” or “Western civilization”. We see it as the NATO-fication of the last remnants of Europe, the twilight of a once-Christian civilization. The lasting legacy of that civilization will be: treachery, deadly weapons, and police batons. Berlin and Brussels, New York and Washington have truly become a “the sledge hammer of the earth” as were Egypt and Babylon, Rome and Constantinople in antiquity. Today’s “global sledge hammers” are bereft of true human civilization and culture but instead are flush with hypocrisy and moral posturing. Behind their smooth, appealing facade is a festering, postulating maggot pile.

They claim to be anti-Communist, but their behavior is identical to the communists of old. They engage in the tyrannical enslavement of people and nations, trampling human hearts and minds, all the while offering hyperbole about “human rights, liberty, and equality”.

The reality of their rhetoric however, comes to an equation of death. Their power is a virtual steamroller that crushes everything which differs from their template. They clearly aspire to reconfigure the world to their exact specifications, in their own image and likeness which is that of apocalyptic beasts, antichrists, god-men and pseudo-gods.

For centuries, the West has prevented us from liberating ourselves; from getting our house in order, constantly imposing upon us their dictates and prefabricated solutions. Those solutions cannot even be realized, let alone sustained, because they are a product of aggression and injustice. They are not a creation of human excellence and virtue, but Satan’s handiwork; the fruit of treachery, godlessness and inhumanity. The West persists in this aggressive behavior in order to continue meddling in our house so that that they may profit from our suffering and pain. All the while telling us, without a trace of shame or remorse: “You’re not capable of organizing your household, or maintaining order in your yard”. As if we could forget all that they’ve done to us in the wars and occupations we’ve been subjected to. Or how they “liberated” us, only to make us slaves twice over that which we had been. All to prevent us from being who we were, and who we can become. To make us over in their own idolatrous image, as the Lord’s prophets warned long ago.

Arise, o Lord my God, and judge Thy people and nations by Thy eternal Justice and Truth. Let Thy hand be raised, and may Thou not forget Thy needy 'til the end of time. Install, o Lord, a law-giver above both us and them, and let all people and nations understand that they are mere human beings. Because those which have attacked us, now have surrounded and subjugated us, and have trained their eyes with the intention of exterminating us. They intend to pound us into the ground, to annihilate and erase any trace of our existence. They wish to destroy Thyne shrines, simply because they are not like theirs. They are resentful that we know and remember that “in a martyred land, martyrs are needed”.

O God our Savior, Hope of the world, even of the smallest and most distant corners of the earth. We know from our life’s bitter experience, and from the historic journey and forbearance of our fathers, that the greater the misfortune, the greater the hope of salvation. That is the mystery of Thy Son’s Cross, as well as the mystery of our crucifixion and resurrection on the path through this Valley of Tears that is this earth.

Lord, Thou merciful who loveth mankind, Savior of souls, we pray to Thee with wounded bodies, dispirited souls, with subdued spirits and faltering voices. We pray and beseech Thee to be admitted again. Allow the sacrifice of our humiliation to be accepted before Thee, and let Thy holy will today rule above us. For there is no shame for those who are bound to Thee. And now we adhere to Thee with all our heart, and fear Thee, seeking Thy face. Do not make us ashamed on this day of reckoning and our hour of temptation. In Thy Name’s ske, do not forsake us 'til the end time, and do not break the bond of Thy covenant. Do not completely distance us from Thy mercy, for the sake our fathers, Thy righteous servants. Hear us Lord, for the sake of the sainted Sava and the martyred Lazar. For the sake of innocent children murdered and exiled, and grieving orphans. Our collective soul has become filled with apprehension, our hearts and bellies with tumult, our bones with tremors because of our many transgressions, and of Thy righteous anger. Descended from Nemanja and Lazar, Orlovic and Tankosic, we have become unworthy of our ancestors. Our tormentors are uprooting the foundations of Thy shrines, thereby extracting the roots of our life and being. They want to destroy Decani monastery and dismantle the beautiful Gracanica, to remove the cross atop the Patriarchate of Pec, and build a minaret atop Ljeviska church. “They’ve severed the nerves in our eyes, and now would like to snatch away the “seeing” white cane from our hands. Land we’ve received from Heaven, others have promised away”, sold, and they have betrayed us to our mortal enemies.

But don’t Thou, our only Lord, betray us. Thou, the One True God, do not abandon us to our mortal enemies and executioners, but call us to Thee and again give us life. Should even my skin decomopose, and my bones rot, I will again arise and stand before Thee, glorify Thee, and confess to Thy Holy Name. For we, as a people were of your flock, but were made sacrificial lambs, and objects of prey for wild beasts, and food for worms. Along with the criminal on the cross, we cry: “Remember us, o Lord, in Thy Kingdom”.

Gentle and Almighty Lord, look at Thy needy, who for centuries have been oppressed and trampled by all who have passed this way. Remind Thyself that we are earthly dust, with a soul inside our bodies. For Thou hast stood, in the beginning, above the dust and called us from non-being into being, led and resurrected us from death into life. For Thou art the Resurrection and Life, and Thy many mercies are boundless, before which my sins are like dust and ashes to be dissolved and dispersed by the breeze of Thy Spirit and cleansed by the Cross of Thy Son, so that we can be made whiter than snow and more radiant than the sun.

In all of this Lord, we have not forgotten Thee. Because of it, Thou wilt not forget the trampled plantings of Thy vineyard. If we should forget our Lord’s Name, or if we hold out our hands to a false and alien god, bring us back and re-direct us, illuminate us with the radiance of Thy face. Cleanse us of our visible and secret sins and transgressions, resurrect us from our graves. Because Thou art God who ventured and descended into hell, broke the shackles of the captives and resurrected Adam’s progeny, consecrating for us the Heavenly Kingdom.

Should I forget you Kosovo, my Jerusalem, may my right hand be forgotten. May my tongue cleave to my palate if I fail to remember you, Metohia mine, or if I do not place you at the beginning of my song, my psalmody to God, who is my salvation.[/i]

Stefan of Metohia
Hariton of Kosovo

[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
We debate Iraq here, alot. But what about European interventionism and Nation Building? Europeans, are you guys just as bad as the US? It doesn’t get discussed nearly as much, though we here from Europeans about how bad we’re viewed because of our own policies.

"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.”

EU leaders also offered Serbia “accelerated” entry to the European Union.

But Russia has insisted that the EU police mission would be illegal without UN approval, something disputed by Western ambassadors here."

They want us there.

At least they want us there more than not having us there and not being able to join us.

Is it our fault that we just do our thing and people like all that peace, prosperity and freedom?

No torturing, rule of law, habeas corpus, that sort of thing makes people want to be a part of it, especially the ones who have seen how thin the veneer of civilization really is.

It works almost like a shining city on a hill.

However, do not despair, with a few minor adjustments to some of your laws the US could well become a candidate for a EU expansion.

We´d prefer Canada though.

Whatever, if they vouch for you we´ll make a package deal.

Oh, yeah. Those christians in Kosovo are loving you guys. Step up that independence. Maybe the muslims can finish of the remaining churches at a faster pace. [/quote]

Those Christians are also Serbs.

The same Serbs that have started that shit the last time, did not let Kosovo go though it is mostly Albanian because of a battle hundreds of years ago and were a general pain in the ass in this region the last two decades.

Now they are powerless to stop the Albanians from presenting the bill.

It is a shame, really.

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
We debate Iraq here, alot. But what about European interventionism and Nation Building? Europeans, are you guys just as bad as the US? It doesn’t get discussed nearly as much, though we here from Europeans about how bad we’re viewed because of our own policies.

"Last Friday, EU leaders deployed around 1,800 police and prosecutors to Kosovo in an action that had been planned under the UN proposal for “supervised independence.”

EU leaders also offered Serbia “accelerated” entry to the European Union.

But Russia has insisted that the EU police mission would be illegal without UN approval, something disputed by Western ambassadors here."

They want us there.

At least they want us there more than not having us there and not being able to join us.

Is it our fault that we just do our thing and people like all that peace, prosperity and freedom?

No torturing, rule of law, habeas corpus, that sort of thing makes people want to be a part of it, especially the ones who have seen how thin the veneer of civilization really is.

It works almost like a shining city on a hill.

However, do not despair, with a few minor adjustments to some of your laws the US could well become a candidate for a EU expansion.

We´d prefer Canada though.

Whatever, if they vouch for you we´ll make a package deal.

[/quote]
I thought you were of the Austrain (Mises Austrian) school. The non-agression/non-interventionist type? Have I mistaken your position?