and oh yeah - I’m really into the art of pitching so I naturally look for this thread. LOL
In faith,
Coach Davies
[quote]Major Dan wrote:
Coach Davies-
I’m not surprised that you referenced Paul Nyman but I am surprised that you have come across his work.
It is great stuff AND very controversial in the pitching world where there is some kind of religious belief in what they teach.
For those wondering, the point of loading the scapulae (pinching the shoulder blades) is that you break the hands not by pulling the ball out of your glove but by pulling the elbows up and back - pinch your shoulder blades and watch where your elbows go.
With the shoulder blade of the throwing arm retracted, the arm travels with the torso and as the hips turn and as the hips turn the torso, the arm comes along with the shoulder/torso turn. as the shoulder turn slows, the arm whips forward.
Additionally, as noted with Nolan Ryan, doing this as late as possible adds some stretch response to the serratus muscles that hold the shoulder blades to the ribs and control their retraction.
The Tom House theorists will tell you not to bring the elbows back past the shoulder line. However this results in at best partial scap loading.
Then when the shoulder turn accelerates, there is not tight linkage of arm to torso and velocity is lost as force is put on the arm/ball for a shorter period of time.
The Tom House theorists would call scap loading ‘extraneous motion’ and dismiss it as unimportant or destructive to control.
and if you go to a pitching coach conference they would all nod in unison as the ‘extraneous motion’ mantra is slammed down like a club and you are dismissed as a know-nothing fool. Its quite amusing.
The RedSox pitching coach did that to me!!!
I’d love to have him explain Pedro’s motion but I had no clips to show.
If you are still reading this, you are either really dedicated or have too much time on your hands.[/quote]
somebody brought up long tossing. i have yet to figure out how long tossing would help anybody throw harder. to throw the ball far you must throw it hard right? so why not just work on the mound working on mechanics as well as throwin the ball hard. long tossing never added any speed to my fastball, it just made my arm hurt like hell.
[quote]comfortablynumb wrote:
somebody brought up long tossing. i have yet to figure out how long tossing would help anybody throw harder. to throw the ball far you must throw it hard right? so why not just work on the mound working on mechanics as well as throwin the ball hard. long tossing never added any speed to my fastball, it just made my arm hurt like hell. [/quote]
Same w/me!!!
The farthest a pitcher should throw is maybe around 90 feet.
Have any of you heard of Jim Dixon? He wrote about pitching a few yrs. ago.
Coach Davies, I didn’t ice my arm after and its really sore today. I haven’t worked with a pitching coach yet. My HS coach has helped me a little. Do you sell any workouts on your website that will help me be a better baseball player?
I don’t know if this will be helpful or not but there’s an article on shoulder training for pitchers in the Feb. issue of the NSCA’s Strength and Conditioning Journal.
[quote]Stronski wrote:
Coach Davies, I didn’t ice my arm after and its really sore today. I haven’t worked with a pitching coach yet. My HS coach has helped me a little. Do you sell any workouts on your website that will help me be a better baseball player?[/quote]
16 yrs old ? - It seemed peculiar you may want to update your profile though next time you want to waste someone’s time. Best of luck but this is why forum’s don’t work anymore.
Stronski-
do a lengthy arm-loosening warmup, gently stretching in various directions, then arm circles forward and back. Then get a heavy ball or 2 1/2 lb plate and do some arm circles forward and back, gradually increasing speed until your shoulder gets really loose.
Take 10 minutes or more to get this done, don’t rush through it.
Then throw lightly for 5 minutes.
Then shut it down.
Next day, do the same routine and throw lightly for 5 minutes, then 80% for 5 minutes.
THird day, do the same, then at the end air it out for 10 pitches or so.
After that, use your head and don’t abuse your arm by throwing 2 hr bullpens!!!
i cruised over to setpro to see what the buzz was about and i find the site to be lacking. nyman’s pitching mechanics work and analysis may be on (i couldn’t find any articles on the site that described anything mechanics related, and maybe that’s because the site is so hard to navigate), but his weight training methods are seriously outdated. i mean, this stuff(pyramiding 15, 15, 10) might work for folks that have never weight trained before like in the case of chris benson, but hell, anything would work for folks that have never weight trained. is there somewhere that i can read about his ideas about pitching mechanics? as i said, if it’s on his site and i missed it, i appologize.
oh and by the way, for major dan. i noticed you advocate stretching prior to throwing and i’d like to hear your rationale for that.
[quote]BRUCELEEWANNABE wrote:
comfortablynumb wrote:
somebody brought up long tossing. i have yet to figure out how long tossing would help anybody throw harder. to throw the ball far you must throw it hard right? so why not just work on the mound working on mechanics as well as throwin the ball hard. long tossing never added any speed to my fastball, it just made my arm hurt like hell.
Same w/me!!!
The farthest a pitcher should throw is maybe around 90 feet.
[/quote]
long tossing is beneficial as long as you have some downward plane on the ball…so yes, 90-120 ft is optimal. once you get too much air under the ball it becomes counter productive.
remember that all these conditioning tools like long tossing, band training, light dumbell work, running, specific strength training etc etc etc…are just that, conditioning tools. their purpose is to prepare your body for the rigors of pitching…think of them as preventative maintenance, and an absolute necessity to maintain longevity.
brcueleewannabe-
Long toss or long throw do help develop velocity.
the distance you throw the ball is a combination of velocity at release and angle at release.
If you throw relatively flat (not going for big arc) for longer distances you have to throw harder to throw longer.
this translates to greater velocity off the mound. ‘throw through the catcher’ is easier if you’ve been throwing 200’ or 250’.
there are charts you can find on the internet that equate distances with velocity.
Your notion that pitchers should never throw more than 90 feet is pure BS and more of the Tom House pitchers theory bs that you probably learned from Dick Mills.
If you pay attention to Paul Nyman, you’d also learn that using light and heavy baseballs is an even better way to develop velocity than long throw.
I personally find that after winter sessions of weighted balls, I can long toss immediately in the spring with no transition and have good distance (for me) with no adjustment.
[quote]boondoc holiday wrote:
oh and by the way, for major dan. i noticed you advocate stretching prior to throwing and i’d like to hear your rationale for that.[/quote]
what major dan was suggesting was some recovery work for the guy who did a 2 hour pen session and now has a sore arm.
thank you juice20jd.
I know that ‘static stretching’ is ‘bad’.
but when your shoulder is sore and stiff from an overdone throwing session, I think you’ve got to get it moving and get back to somewhere near your normal range of motion before you start moving it around and trying to be anything close to ballistic.
For me, if my shoulder is stiff and I just try to throw, the first few are really painful, full of snap, crackle and pop.
I’ve just tried to pass on my formula for getting things working again after shoulder abuse.
if that works for you i’m glad. but for most stretching prior to performing a ballistic movement like throwing, especially with a sore (microtrauma) shoulder, would perpetuate the cycle of injury. i think most would be better off warming up with dynamic work (mobility work) and no stretching. static stretching is not bad, but best timed elsewhere like after the workout or after a warm shower.
i would still like to read about nyman’s mechanics descriptions if anyone knows where i can find them.
[quote]Stronski wrote:
Coach what gives? I put a different age in their because I thought I was too young to be on this forum. I need your help.[/quote]
ahh…well chalk that error up to me. At 16 I think there are a number of factors to consider in your development. Drop me a email and I’ll be happy to send you some information - I’m always willing to help a young athlete.
One thing I would seriously suggest you do (and others) is visit Paul Nymans site and try to take in some of the information he provides.
Again - drop me an email and try to fill me in your training history.
Just been reading the thread, interesting…many good thoughts, one thing we look at when rehabbing our athletes, especially baseball players are mechanics and you cant get around them…genetics are obviously golden but teaching is as well,one thing thats very important and not mentioned is the importance of the glove hand and following through…Its huge with our post shoulder patients and is of key importance returning them to their velocity…
Interesting points inregards to pitching, all true points, one thing we do with our athletes when rehabbing them, especially baseball is the importance of mechanics, BUT with pitchers, the use of the glove hand is very important, it adds velocity with the follow through. Just one of many tips to add this site…
peace
[quote]Major Dan wrote:
brcueleewannabe-
Long toss or long throw do help develop velocity.
the distance you throw the ball is a combination of velocity at release and angle at release.
If you throw relatively flat (not going for big arc) for longer distances you have to throw harder to throw longer.
this translates to greater velocity off the mound. ‘throw through the catcher’ is easier if you’ve been throwing 200’ or 250’.
there are charts you can find on the internet that equate distances with velocity.
Your notion that pitchers should never throw more than 90 feet is pure BS and more of the Tom House pitchers theory bs that you probably learned from Dick Mills.
If you pay attention to Paul Nyman, you’d also learn that using light and heavy baseballs is an even better way to develop velocity than long throw.
I personally find that after winter sessions of weighted balls, I can long toss immediately in the spring with no transition and have good distance (for me) with no adjustment.
[/quote]
I always long tossed for many yrs. I didn’t see any improvenent! The only thing I noticed was my arm was always hurting. I felt better throwing from second base to home. I believe that built up my arm better than the 200 feet long toss.
Anyways, I have the weghted balls & will be starting it up soon. Can’t wait to see the results.
The reason u might be hurting with the long toss is your reaching back to far and trying throw with force…long toss is to stimulate your shoulder capsule and help stretch it, our players long toss with incredible ease, we dont use weighted balls for long distances…use weights to strengthen your shoulders, not a weighted ball…
The reason u might be hurting with the long toss is your reaching back to far and trying throw with force…long toss is to stimulate your shoulder capsule and help stretch it, our players long toss with incredible ease, we dont use weighted balls for long distances…use weights to strengthen your shoulders, not a weighted ball…
bambam-
Glad to hear you are an expert in what not to do with weighted balls.
NOBODY throws long toss with weighted balls. That would be rediculous.
They are also not used to strengthen the shoulder.
If one throws long toss with ‘incredible ease’, they are either arcing the ball a lot, or not throwing very far.
“long toss is to stimulate your shoulder capsule and help stretch it” ???
maybe for you but what the **** does that mean? sounds like a lot of pseudo-science mumbo jumbo to me.
“The reason u might be hurting with the long toss is your reaching back to far and trying throw with force” how is reaching back too far different from stretching the shoulder capsule?
By the way can you get me Tom House’s autograph? sounds like you attend the same church of pitching BS