In a nutshell, what are their different purposes?
What do these different tools achieve?
box squats require you to stay tight at the bottom as the weight is still on your shoulders. you are also supposed to push the hips very far back working your posterior chain much harder than you normally could.
pin squats take out the stretch reflex at the bottom while maintaining the same or similar form to your regular squats.
Well, both should be considered supplemental lifts to a squat. From my understanding, ‘Anderson squats’, aka the pin squat or squats from a suspended bar is a concentric only motion. Box squats are a full ROM, and one only loosens the hips a bit on the box. The box squat is more of a ‘leg curl’ like movement that takes advantage of the whole posterior chain and is purportedly easier on the knees than a regular squat. YMMV.
Some would argue that box squats are more suited for geared lifters. While they may closely mimic the motion of a geared squat, I again tend to think of a box squat as a supplemental lift to a free squat. For me, the box squat is much more knee friendly. I do not have any knee issues btw. When I was in therapy for my shoulder the PT had knee replacement folks doing box squats as part of their therapy due to it being very knee friendly. to go off on a tangent here, I don’t know why some people have a hard time with box squats. I mean every time you take a shit you are more or less box squatting. You stand in front of the bowl, sit back and down to a particular height of the seat then stand back up when done. I think people like to spend too much time over thinking shit. A classic example of people knowing too much shit and not DOING enough shit, but I digress.
I prefer to do ‘pin squat’ from a suspended chain. That way the bar returns to the exact same spot each rep and I do not have to change body positions. I tried to do them off pins and I always can never seem to return the bar to the exact starting point. After I tweaked my back I haven’t done them off pins. No point since I can hang in chains and get better results. Plus I can adjust the height a chain length at a time vs whatever rack hole spacing I happen to have, which generally isn’t a big deal anyways. Some people will argue that off chains one can swing the weight to get it moving. The answer is yes you can. An I would point them to what Mark Rippetoe once said… "The fact that a shortcut is important to you means that you are a pu**y. " That’s a simple fix… just don’t fucking swing the bar to start.
Hope this helps man.
Thanks for the help. I was deciding which one to do after rep work with the comp squat to use for speed work. The reason being that speed free squats seem to lead to SI and QL difficulties. I use a narrow stance and I can virtually omit the eccentric of the pin squat which will help with recovery so I was leaning towards pin squats done a couple of inches below my sticking point which is just above parallel.
I would never consider doing pin squats for speed work. If you aren’t in the correct position you’ll likely suffer an injury. Would hate to see that happen to you dude. Maybe I’m paranoid. I think theres so many other ways to incorporate speed into lifts
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
I would never consider doing pin squats for speed work. If you aren’t in the correct position you’ll likely suffer an injury. Would hate to see that happen to you dude. Maybe I’m paranoid. I think theres so many other ways to incorporate speed into lifts[/quote]
Aside from free squats, box squats, and plyos, what else do you have in mind?
I would use pin squats and supramaximal loads for strength. I have seen this develop good strength on the squat in a few months
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Thanks for the help. I was deciding which one to do after rep work with the comp squat to use for speed work. The reason being that speed free squats seem to lead to SI and QL difficulties. I use a narrow stance and I can virtually omit the eccentric of the pin squat which will help with recovery so I was leaning towards pin squats done a couple of inches below my sticking point which is just above parallel. [/quote]
In pin squats the spine goes from unloaded to loaded suddenly in the bottom position. This can be as “stressful” as having an eccentric phase, if not more. I like pin FRONT squats, Pin Zercher squats. Box squats protect the spine because you don’t unload the spine at the bottom.
I would only use pin BACK squats in one of the following 3 ways. 1) basically as an “unrack” exercise, from only a 2-4 pin (6-12 inch) deficit and with a slow lift off and hold at the top, 2) Deeper but with low bottom end load increasing on the way up. For example if you squat 400, use bands so that you have 275 at the bottom and 400 at the top. You don’t want a sudden maximal load off the rack. 3) Lighter for reps but still slow and controlled off the rack.
I’m still trying to figure out how it’s any harder on the back and spine than a deadlift which is commonly done for speed. In a dead, isn’t the back pretty suddenly moved from unloaded to loaded?
Personally, I hate pin squats from the bottom up unless they are zerchers - I can never consistently get into the same position as I would be in a free squat. I like Box Squats, Box Jumps (seated) and Pause Squats best. Give each method a shot and then pick the one that seems to give you the desired training effect. If it’s speed work and you aren’t using bands from the bottom, then the eccentric portion of a relatively light load shouldn’t really be too taxing. Box squats are the least stressful type of squat for me… saves the knees and keeps the groin protected - if I was never going to power lift it would be about the only squatting I’d do ever.
I once box squatted 14 straight days with varying loads (I know it was stupid, but WTF) - if that was free squats, I’d have been injured for sure. You CAN do them with a narrow stance - I have been doing them that way for some time as I basically am one giant glute/ham anymore - my quads suck…Good luck - hope you find what works best for you…
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
I would never consider doing pin squats for speed work. If you aren’t in the correct position you’ll likely suffer an injury. Would hate to see that happen to you dude. Maybe I’m paranoid. I think theres so many other ways to incorporate speed into lifts[/quote]
I really think you’re paranoid, tbh. Pin squats are roughly the strength movement equivalent of doing olympic pulls from blocks. I think they are great movements, and I’d much rather have started from pins than be in the wrong position coming DOWN and suffering an injury. Besides which they allow you to position yourself however you want before squatting so if you do it wrong it’s on you for not being focused.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Thanks for the help. I was deciding which one to do after rep work with the comp squat to use for speed work. The reason being that speed free squats seem to lead to SI and QL difficulties. I use a narrow stance and I can virtually omit the eccentric of the pin squat which will help with recovery so I was leaning towards pin squats done a couple of inches below my sticking point which is just above parallel. [/quote]
In pin squats the spine goes from unloaded to loaded suddenly in the bottom position. This can be as “stressful” as having an eccentric phase, if not more. I like pin FRONT squats, Pin Zercher squats. Box squats protect the spine because you don’t unload the spine at the bottom.
I would only use pin BACK squats in one of the following 3 ways. 1) basically as an “unrack” exercise, from only a 2-4 pin (6-12 inch) deficit and with a slow lift off and hold at the top, 2) Deeper but with low bottom end load increasing on the way up. For example if you squat 400, use bands so that you have 275 at the bottom and 400 at the top. You don’t want a sudden maximal load off the rack. 3) Lighter for reps but still slow and controlled off the rack. [/quote]
Again I disagree with this honestly. You’re not supposed to ram the bar with your spine. You’re supposed to tighten up just like a regular squat before you accelerate. I mean, think about what you’re saying: The spine goes from unloaded to loaded in a split second when you deadlift too.
You load your hamstrings and pull the slack out of the bar before pulling off the floor, you don’t just walk up and–without getting tight or or bracing your abs–just try to rip the thing off the floor. Same with a pin squat. You get tight and you “press” yourself into the bar before squatting it up, just like pulling slack out of the bar on the deadlift.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I’m still trying to figure out how it’s any harder on the back and spine than a deadlift which is commonly done for speed. In a dead, isn’t the back pretty suddenly moved from unloaded to loaded?[/quote]
It’s really not much different. You have one guy who says they would use the pins for speed of the pins (aka light load off the pins) and one who says he’d only use it with heavy weight, not speed work. So what’s the difference?
I don’t think you can make a convincing case it’s worse than a normal load, barring a) a mobility/flexibility issue that prevents you from getting into the start position and b) ramming your back into the bar like a “punch” without tightening things up. These are both stupid things that have nothing to do with the exercise itself.
Besides which, if you measure the turnaround force from eccentric to concentric in the squat, the forces pushed onto the spine are actually greater than from pins.
This is like saying “depth jumps are fine, but I would never do box jumps, you don’t want the heavy load on your legs and you could get injured if you’re not in the right position”.
Or, perhaps more appropriately, telling kids that “weightlifting is bad for your growth plates” but allowing them to play sports and slide, jump and all that other stuff, where it has been documented that the forces involved on the joints can be upwards of 8 TIMES the forces you can apply with weightlifting.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Thanks for the help. I was deciding which one to do after rep work with the comp squat to use for speed work. The reason being that speed free squats seem to lead to SI and QL difficulties. I use a narrow stance and I can virtually omit the eccentric of the pin squat which will help with recovery so I was leaning towards pin squats done a couple of inches below my sticking point which is just above parallel. [/quote]
In pin squats the spine goes from unloaded to loaded suddenly in the bottom position. This can be as “stressful” as having an eccentric phase, if not more. I like pin FRONT squats, Pin Zercher squats. Box squats protect the spine because you don’t unload the spine at the bottom.
I would only use pin BACK squats in one of the following 3 ways. 1) basically as an “unrack” exercise, from only a 2-4 pin (6-12 inch) deficit and with a slow lift off and hold at the top, 2) Deeper but with low bottom end load increasing on the way up. For example if you squat 400, use bands so that you have 275 at the bottom and 400 at the top. You don’t want a sudden maximal load off the rack. 3) Lighter for reps but still slow and controlled off the rack. [/quote]
Again I disagree with this honestly. You’re not supposed to ram the bar with your spine. You’re supposed to tighten up just like a regular squat before you accelerate. I mean, think about what you’re saying: The spine goes from unloaded to loaded in a split second when you deadlift too.
You load your hamstrings and pull the slack out of the bar before pulling off the floor, you don’t just walk up and–without getting tight or or bracing your abs–just try to rip the thing off the floor. Same with a pin squat. You get tight and you “press” yourself into the bar before squatting it up, just like pulling slack out of the bar on the deadlift.[/quote]
If you do it that way then fine. Still, some people get torn down from deadlifting too. I just don’t think you can consciously tighten 100% from a dead-paused starting position, so TOO MUCH can hurt. It can be cycled in.
I’m going to give it a shot starting in a couple weeks after I take new maxes, but I’ll post videos to make sure I’m doing it right. I’ll also use some light accommodating resistance (10-20%) to help ease the back in the start and ensure I accelerate all the way through. I’ll set the pins a couple inches below the sticking point of my new max I’ll have in about a week and a half.
[quote]bilski wrote:
Give each method a shot and then pick the one that seems to give you the desired training effect. [/quote]
This.
Pin squats are good for working on guys weak spots if they have big breakdowns during the up phase of the squat, but typically this is only useful on beginner-intermediate lifters in the first few years when they are still getting their technique down and strength levels up in all post-chain muscles.
Box squats; I find these useful with guys who struggle holding good spine posture, or can’t drive from a good hip hinge out of the hole. Useful for emphasizing a tight arch at bottom of squat too.
I would never recommend relying on one or the other, or treating either as anything more than a really good supplemental lift.
Good luck.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
I would never consider doing pin squats for speed work. If you aren’t in the correct position you’ll likely suffer an injury. Would hate to see that happen to you dude. Maybe I’m paranoid. I think theres so many other ways to incorporate speed into lifts[/quote]
I really think you’re paranoid, tbh. Pin squats are roughly the strength movement equivalent of doing olympic pulls from blocks. I think they are great movements, and I’d much rather have started from pins than be in the wrong position coming DOWN and suffering an injury. Besides which they allow you to position yourself however you want before squatting so if you do it wrong it’s on you for not being focused.[/quote]
All I know is when I did pin squats, I didn’t like them. I had to constantly shift my body position because I just couldn’t get the bar in the exact spot I started from. It was close, but the minute differences messed me up. That’s why I do them suspended in chains when I do them, and I don’t do them for ‘speed’, I do them as a supplemental movement for reps in the 12ish range, but that’s what I like.
The bar has no choice but to return to the same spot and I do not have to reposition myself. You either have better aim than me when returning the bar to the pins or you do not notice or care about slightly different starting positions.
I also don’t do olympic lifts so that is also irrelevant to my training. Speaking of training, I have NEVER seen anyones log at EFS that has done speed pin squats. I have also never seen anyone doing them in real life so that tels me that they are akin to doing speed curls lol. If y’all think they work for you then good on ya.
Try both box squats AND pin squats - then do what works best. Trying to settle on one or the other without experimenting with both equally is a MISTAKE. I don’t know of anyone who competes that does speed work off of the pins, but that does not mean you shouldn’t try it… making your own decisions based on YOUR experiences is critical and only solidifies your purpose…Also remember that the squat is not a concentric only lift - comparing it to one can be problematic. The tightness and positioning is critical in the dead lift and clean, but you have activated it at the top and are trying to hold it in the squat…
I’ve given box squats, regular and narrow a shot and it doesn’t work with the form I’ve tried out recently. I’ve never had good carry over from paused squats and free squats are too hard on my QL and SI for speed work. The plan is to do these after my main work using Prilipen’s table with my strongest free squat.
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
I would never consider doing pin squats for speed work. If you aren’t in the correct position you’ll likely suffer an injury. Would hate to see that happen to you dude. Maybe I’m paranoid. I think theres so many other ways to incorporate speed into lifts[/quote]
I really think you’re paranoid, tbh. Pin squats are roughly the strength movement equivalent of doing olympic pulls from blocks. I think they are great movements, and I’d much rather have started from pins than be in the wrong position coming DOWN and suffering an injury. Besides which they allow you to position yourself however you want before squatting so if you do it wrong it’s on you for not being focused.[/quote]
All I know is when I did pin squats, I didn’t like them. I had to constantly shift my body position because I just couldn’t get the bar in the exact spot I started from. It was close, but the minute differences messed me up. That’s why I do them suspended in chains when I do them, and I don’t do them for ‘speed’, I do them as a supplemental movement for reps in the 12ish range, but that’s what I like.
The bar has no choice but to return to the same spot and I do not have to reposition myself. You either have better aim than me when returning the bar to the pins or you do not notice or care about slightly different starting positions.
I also don’t do olympic lifts so that is also irrelevant to my training. Speaking of training, I have NEVER seen anyones log at EFS that has done speed pin squats. I have also never seen anyone doing them in real life so that tels me that they are akin to doing speed curls lol. If y’all think they work for you then good on ya. [/quote]
And that’s totally cool. I don’t mean to imply that they are a primary means of training the squat for me (they are not). And I am certainly not saying you should totally do speed pin squats (they certainly don’t replace speed work). I prefer to train them heavy myself actually… But I do feel that they are useful for building strength out of the hole, as opposed relying on the stretch reflex, at least for me personally. I just don’t think they should be labelled as dangerous. That’s all.