[quote]Aragorn wrote:
But I do feel that they are useful for building strength out of the hole, as opposed relying on the stretch reflex, at least for me personally. I just don’t think they should be labelled as dangerous. That’s all. [/quote]
I don’t mean to belabor the point but the OP said that he wanted to do them as ‘speed work’ not as you, myself and others have described. IMO not every lift can or needs to be done with a speed element such as a good morning. Training economy right? Why do an overly risky thing when the reward just isn’t there? MAybe when Y’all are 40 you’ll see things differently as I do
Ultimately Fletch has to decide what risks he is willing and able to take with his body to reach his goals.
Why do an overly risky thing when the reward just isn’t there? [/quote]
See that’s what I decided to respond to. I don’t view it as any more risky than a normal squat at all. And I do believe it can be done as speed work, although that may not be the best application of said exercise because I view it as more of a strength builder and weakness fix for intermediates.
aren’t box squats more of a deadlift assistance move if you’re lifting raw? at least that’s what I’ve started doing them for. I feel them completely in my glutes and hams
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I get the feeling that if I do this I’m pretty much in unknown territory. I can’t find anything good or bad about doing it or anything at all. [/quote]
Re: the speed work for anderson, I wouldn’t bother, for myself anyway. I really have a hard time staying super tight at the bottom starting these. I also can’t quite get the foot position and always have them too far forward or back, but I could very well be overthinking it. If any of those are true speed work for me would be a shit show.
To that end, I say nay. But… If I was doing them from the rack, with a walk-out, I would have the confidence that my bar and foot position would be exactly where it should during a squat, and I could “push the slack” out of the bar just like speed pulls.
Aragon, you’re right, but I don’t feel confident enough to try them by starting at the bottom, nor do I have chains (which prob would help)
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Re: the speed work for anderson, I wouldn’t bother, for myself anyway. I really have a hard time staying super tight at the bottom starting these. I also can’t quite get the foot position and always have them too far forward or back, but I could very well be overthinking it. If any of those are true speed work for me would be a shit show. [/quote]
Hey, that’s fair. By ALL means if you don’t feel comfortable with them then don’t do them. I don’t feel like I have that problem, and I also squat differently than some people. I tend to consider it a form of chaos training as well as weakness and bottom end strength work, although more specific than say…good mornings :P. But again, not a style of squat I use all the time either.
Speaking of, I’ve always found it strange that people will be totally ok with chain suspended good mornings–and in fact a lot of Westside guys use those and other styles of powerlifting training templates them–but bottoms up squats are somehow worse than bottoms up good mornings for strength out of the hole. You know what I’m saying?
Well then that wouldn’t be a bottoms-up squat would it? hahaha. Nah just messing with ya
[quote]Aragon, you’re right, but I don’t feel confident enough to try them by starting at the bottom, nor do I have chains (which prob would help)
[/quote]
Ah it’s ok, It’s not a make/break thing. I’m just glad somebody gets what I’m saying finally. Seems I’ve been living in bizarro land with my posts lately
Absolutely for the life of me cannot get the form right with a pin squat from the bottoms up position. I find myself standing on my toes or my weight is shifted irregularly to my toes, I have to go with a wider foot placement to do them correctly. If there is any appreciable weight on the bar, I end up GMing the squat and, for me its too many cues for my little brain to remember so I avoid them bottoms up. I have used a pin squat from a regular squat position with a deload at the bottom and end of the movement. I prefer them this way.
As far as Box squatting goes, the only benefit I received from them was teaching myself proper depth, other than that, for me it did not translate well to the free squat.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Absolutely for the life of me cannot get the form right with a pin squat from the bottoms up position. I find myself standing on my toes or my weight is shifted irregularly to my toes, I have to go with a wider foot placement to do them correctly. If there is any appreciable weight on the bar, I end up GMing the squat and, for me its too many cues for my little brain to remember so I avoid them bottoms up. I have used a pin squat from a regular squat position with a deload at the bottom and end of the movement. I prefer them this way.
As far as Box squatting goes, the only benefit I received from them was teaching myself proper depth, other than that, for me it did not translate well to the free squat. [/quote]
Yeah, they can be a bitch. I don’t personally get the problem as much, but I also squat (currently) with a very upright torso and feet about hip width…pretty much an olympic squat. For me it’s not an issue because my back stays upright like the normal squat. It does make me really work hard to arch out of the hole, kinda like the SSB, but I still stay pretty upright. This is why I keep saying I squat differently than a lot of people in this subforum right now :P. They can be a bitch. I do really like pin front squats though.
Box squatting I think is very touchy a subject for a lot of people. Some people swear by it, and there was a time when I did them pretty exclusively and my free squat max just kept going up. And some people don’t do them at all. I go back and forth on them: i think they’re great for learning technique, training your (general you, not YOU you) body to recognize correct depth, and hammering the posterior chain in a squat specific pattern. But if you can already sit back in a PL squat or your posterior chain is a strength for you, then they might not be what you want. I haven’t used them in a long long time, just occasionally for a change of pace when my boredom sets in or some overload
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Re: the speed work for anderson, I wouldn’t bother, for myself anyway. I really have a hard time staying super tight at the bottom starting these. I also can’t quite get the foot position and always have them too far forward or back, but I could very well be overthinking it. If any of those are true speed work for me would be a shit show. [/quote]
Hey, that’s fair. By ALL means if you don’t feel comfortable with them then don’t do them. I don’t feel like I have that problem, and I also squat differently than some people. I tend to consider it a form of chaos training as well as weakness and bottom end strength work, although more specific than say…good mornings :P. But again, not a style of squat I use all the time either.
Speaking of, I’ve always found it strange that people will be totally ok with chain suspended good mornings–and in fact a lot of Westside guys use those and other styles of powerlifting training templates them–but bottoms up squats are somehow worse than bottoms up good mornings for strength out of the hole. You know what I’m saying?
Well then that wouldn’t be a bottoms-up squat would it? hahaha. Nah just messing with ya
[quote]Aragon, you’re right, but I don’t feel confident enough to try them by starting at the bottom, nor do I have chains (which prob would help)
[/quote]
Ah it’s ok, It’s not a make/break thing. I’m just glad somebody gets what I’m saying finally. Seems I’ve been living in bizarro land with my posts lately [/quote]
I totally get the chain GMs, honestly (though never done them lol). Bottom end GM you have only one place to go, back n up. There’s a HUGE weight difference for me in these, too, don’t feel like I’ll wreck my shit with my GM weights. Ppl bash the GMs and back squats, but I love them. Got a super long torso and the same lenth legs as my gf, who is 7" shorter lol. If my torso goes forward I lose it, means my GMs are terrible and light.
And ya, you keep getting feedback like you’re in bizarro land lately I’ve noticed…
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Absolutely for the life of me cannot get the form right with a pin squat from the bottoms up position. I find myself standing on my toes or my weight is shifted irregularly to my toes, I have to go with a wider foot placement to do them correctly. If there is any appreciable weight on the bar, I end up GMing the squat and, for me its too many cues for my little brain to remember so I avoid them bottoms up. I have used a pin squat from a regular squat position with a deload at the bottom and end of the movement. I prefer them this way.
As far as Box squatting goes, the only benefit I received from them was teaching myself proper depth, other than that, for me it did not translate well to the free squat. [/quote]
Yeah, they can be a bitch. I don’t personally get the problem as much, but I also squat (currently) with a very upright torso and feet about hip width…pretty much an olympic squat. For me it’s not an issue because my back stays upright like the normal squat. It does make me really work hard to arch out of the hole, kinda like the SSB, but I still stay pretty upright. This is why I keep saying I squat differently than a lot of people in this subforum right now :P. They can be a bitch. I do really like pin front squats though.
Box squatting I think is very touchy a subject for a lot of people. Some people swear by it, and there was a time when I did them pretty exclusively and my free squat max just kept going up. And some people don’t do them at all. I go back and forth on them: i think they’re great for learning technique, training your (general you, not YOU you) body to recognize correct depth, and hammering the posterior chain in a squat specific pattern. But if you can already sit back in a PL squat or your posterior chain is a strength for you, then they might not be what you want. I haven’t used them in a long long time, just occasionally for a change of pace when my boredom sets in or some overload[/quote]
Agreed, for me it really never translated except for when I had issues with depth. I would say that I dont really understand the method of box squatting where you tap the box as if it were on fire, like Efferding does, what is the benefit?
I totally get the chain GMs, honestly (though never done them lol). Bottom end GM you have only one place to go, back n up. There’s a HUGE weight difference for me in these, too, don’t feel like I’ll wreck my shit with my GM weights. Ppl bash the GMs and back squats, but I love them. Got a super long torso and the same lenth legs as my gf, who is 7" shorter lol. If my torso goes forward I lose it, means my GMs are terrible and light.
And ya, you keep getting feedback like you’re in bizarro land lately I’ve noticed…
[/quote]
Well I am glad you understand where I’ve been coming from at least, thank you very much lol.
For me there is not (or was not) a huge difference in GM to back squat for me. I’ve good morninged 500 for a triple to parallel, although this was a couple year and a lot of “mileage” ago, and gotten pin GMs above 400. I switched my squat style because I needed to train my legs more and lower back less. So for me I don’t suffer many of the problems with any pin variation. 'Course with your leverage problems the GM is probably a bitch and half :P.
Of course, that also means I have to travel about twice as long as you to squat a weight, so I’m not too lucky…and if you squat with a wide stance too probably much longer than that. You’re built for the squat if your lower back can keep up.
Btw, try Klokov’s back extensions. If you survive, your back will be retarded strong. See here…
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Absolutely for the life of me cannot get the form right with a pin squat from the bottoms up position. I find myself standing on my toes or my weight is shifted irregularly to my toes, I have to go with a wider foot placement to do them correctly. If there is any appreciable weight on the bar, I end up GMing the squat and, for me its too many cues for my little brain to remember so I avoid them bottoms up. I have used a pin squat from a regular squat position with a deload at the bottom and end of the movement. I prefer them this way.
As far as Box squatting goes, the only benefit I received from them was teaching myself proper depth, other than that, for me it did not translate well to the free squat. [/quote]
Yeah, they can be a bitch. I don’t personally get the problem as much, but I also squat (currently) with a very upright torso and feet about hip width…pretty much an olympic squat. For me it’s not an issue because my back stays upright like the normal squat. It does make me really work hard to arch out of the hole, kinda like the SSB, but I still stay pretty upright. This is why I keep saying I squat differently than a lot of people in this subforum right now :P. They can be a bitch. I do really like pin front squats though.
Box squatting I think is very touchy a subject for a lot of people. Some people swear by it, and there was a time when I did them pretty exclusively and my free squat max just kept going up. And some people don’t do them at all. I go back and forth on them: i think they’re great for learning technique, training your (general you, not YOU you) body to recognize correct depth, and hammering the posterior chain in a squat specific pattern. But if you can already sit back in a PL squat or your posterior chain is a strength for you, then they might not be what you want. I haven’t used them in a long long time, just occasionally for a change of pace when my boredom sets in or some overload[/quote]
Agreed, for me it really never translated except for when I had issues with depth. I would say that I dont really understand the method of box squatting where you tap the box as if it were on fire, like Efferding does, what is the benefit?
[/quote]
No idea. He doesn’t really bounce off of it so no help that way and he definitely doesn’t sit on it. Other than tapping to know exactly where your depth is supposed to be I’m not sure.
