I’m not sure what you’re claiming Aceo. So correct me if I’m wrong. You’re stating, that the progress T-Nation’s articles claim to produce either show steriod users in their pictures or may have been the result of steriod assistance. “Whos to know so why bother trying, because I’m natural”. Is that right? I think this train of thought is self defeating and irrelavant. I don’t think ANYONE here can say with certainty that all of T-Nation’s articles are products of natural gains.
However, IT DOESN’T MATTER. If you are of the belief that impressive gains cannot be made without steriods, you’re setting yourself up for some huge under achieving. The BodyBuilders I named are just a few examples of what is possible naturally. They ARE known to be lifetime drug free. My arguement here is, it shouldn’t matter to you if someone elses results are with assistance or not, you should set your goals high, because yes, over the years they are achievable.
Hello Aceo, the reason people keep attacking your experience is because most people are SOOOOOO far from reaching their steroidless (yes, I believe I made that word up) genetic potential, that they underestimate how much potential just about everyone has.
If I were to take training extremely seriously, I could DEFINITELY hit 300 under 20% body fat WITHOUT nutrional supplements let alone steroids (as in just eating clean). At this point, a person like yourself would point me out to be just another guy on steroids.
I’d say that 99% of the males on this planet could reach 250 under 20% bodyfat IF they were willing to sacrifice enough time and energy into researching, working out, and eating clean.
You ask us for proof that certain individuals are not on steroids, yet your only proof is the fact that Aceo does not believe people can attain such a large size. And what is “obvious” to Aceo must be fact, right?
You claim that science is on your side? Where is the research Aceo? I’d love to some scientific experiment in which some professor has discovered once and for all that every man on the planet cannot reach a weight over 300 pounds under 20% body fat. Wow, that would be simply science at its finest.
Perhaps there are some pictures of men on steroids on this site, they also must work very hard and very smart to attain these physiques. But also do not assume that you can tell the steroid user from the non-steroid user based upon the way they look.
[quote]Aceo wrote:
doosl: your disregard for my comments on debate level is disrespectful and I wont comment any further on your posts unless you stop being personal and solely focus on the topic.[/quote]
The problem here is that your “topic” is too stupid to allow for any meaningful debate. You have presented nothing to discuss.
BTW, you also don’t get the big titted, blond bombshell pictured in the Ferrari ad when you buy the car. Shameless, I know…
Like others have already said (ad nauseum): Forget the pictures and focus on YOUR REALITY!
(Now go directly to the Biotest store and load up on all the supplements. 8^)
[quote]Aceo wrote:
A great deal of the authors and almost all the males in the pictures of the articles are obviously on steroids.
Yet all the articles seems to assume steroids are not necesary to gain that amount of muscle the articles promote.
Or am I wrong. Does the average beginner (I’m a beginner, but I know the basics of human physique) think it it’s possible and therefore it is good motivation - atleast for a couple of years. Personally it makes me question quite a few of the articles. Are they based on research subjects who are clean or on steroids?
And it’s nagging me that T-Nation is selling this mirage. Makes me think they are more about the money than the knowledge. To me it comes close to a lie when products from this site are sold in connection with articles that has pictures with people on roids.
And please dont start saying I cant tell if they are on drugs and its just because I’m a small nerd with no self esteem.[/quote]
The articles are based on the training experience of the writers. They are all trainers first and writers of these programs second. They are also both formally educated and practicaly experienced. You may notice in some of the articles that a trainer will recomend some supplements for very good reasons. This is to aide in recovery because those workouts are a real mother. The reality of it though is that they are NOTHING compared to the training regiments of pro-BB/steroid users.
Being new to physical training explains a lot about your misunderstanding of where, how, and to whom these programs apply. You can remedy that by becoming more experienced. Once you have developed an experienced base of knowledge, the majority of your questions of supplementation and streoid use will change. You will also develope a different perspective on what is humanly and individualy possible.
You sound apprehensive about this whole venture. Thats reasonable. But don’t let contempt prior to investigation lead you astray.
I might have taken my mouth too full regarding science.
But take a look at bodybuilders from before steoroids were introduced - bodybuilders from around 1950. The best of those must be a good indicator for a realistic goal for a paranoid guy like me. They have bodyfat under 10 and still quite a lot of muscle. Nothing compared to bodybuilders of today though.
I have gotten a pretty good impression about where you guys all stand regarding the form in which this site represents/make its image and it has been a learning experience. Thank you.
As far as I’m aware all the lifters in the IPF are drug free, until proven otherwise-they have strict rules- and well they are huge and lifting tremendous amounts of weight
Mark Henery, magnus samulson, phil phister, ext all claim to be drug free and are monsters in strength. -In fact phil and magnus really wanted drug tested strongman events and phil still pushing for it-
Are very own CT, is drug free and has a physique most would love to achieve.
You can be big and strong drug free, it sounds like your small and self conscious. Drugs are not the answer in this case. Eat heavy and lift hard and you will achieve results you did not think possible.
Also you need to get over the fact that just because someone is big does NOT mean they are on drugs. Just because your small and eat less then a 14 year old girl does not mean men who have been lifting hard and eating well for years and years are on drugs. I’ve met several people drug free who are huge and get accused of using drugs all the time. It’s simply bullshit, spend some time lifting instead of criticizing others.
[quote]Aceo wrote:
doosl: thats no reason why we shouldn’t be critical of the content. Just that we should be even more cautios about the content. Again “go away” is not a legimate argument. Please don’t lower the debate level.[/quote]
If you don’t like the advertisements, I suggest you get a refund for your T-Nation membership.
Take a look at Michael Lockett, he is natural also. He has passed every drug test as well as lie detectors. He is an absolute freak also, go read about him.
OP Have you hit your training wall? A point that you can go no further WITHOUT the use of steroids? If you say yes, than I can somewhat see your point. I’m guessing you haven’t so really how does it affect you? How is T-Nation any different than any other bodybuilding site? How are they any different than any other bodybuilding magazine?
I subscribe to the RSS feed for BB.com. You know what I like the most out of their articles? The transformations, especially when it’s a life changing one where they dropped considerable body fat. I don’t expect or need to see lifters who used steroids extensively, I’m not them. I am that every day normal guy though that busts his ass in the gym, tries to eat right, and tries to remain healthy.
Doesn’t mean I can’t go “DAMN!!!” look at that guy when I see someone jacked. I don’t feel a need to compete with them, I compete with myself, striving to always progress. If I ever hit my “training wall” where I can go no further without partaking in steroids then I will make that decision, until then I give 2 shits about it and about them.
Gettingbignow: I like Suicidal Tendencies, that’s why.
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[quote]pachell wrote:
'Cause this isn’t ****ing bodyspace brah?!1?1![/quote]
Because Raging JoePa is way cooler than I am standing in a dim room pointing a camera at mirror that results in big glare spot and shitty half assed pic of myself that resembles what little 13 yr olds put on there MySpace…
[quote]Aceo wrote:
aallen85: and Der Candy: Scientifically youre body is only able to gain a certain amount of mass naturally. After training perfectly with perfect nutrition for an amount of time youre will simply not grow anymore since it wont be able to sustain more muscle (we are talking quite a few yers here and genetics play a big role). Only way to get bigger is enhancing its capabilities by taking drugs. This is a scientific fact for which I’m sure severeal people in here will be able to find documentation.[/quote] Please explain how you claim something is a fact, with ZERO evidence, then say your are SURE someone could find documentation. If this is how you prescribe facts you should learn what it is before using it.
Your 2nd example that you have no definition of what a fact is. No you did not state this with the exact word fact, but by stating “couldn’t” you are implying this is a fact. While I agree with you that someone that big LOOKS like he’s on steriods, I would never make a factual statement like he couldn’t be that big without steriods, people have different genetics.
[quote]
doosl: thats no reason why we shouldn’t be critical of the content. Just that we should be even more cautios about the content. Again “go away” is not a legimate argument. Please don’t lower the debate level.[/quote]
You will not be able to find any 2 studies that can will agree on the maximum amount of weight you can gain naturally per month/week or whatever, with or without steriods. EVERY person is differnt, as well as every point in your life is different. You may be able to gain a 2 lbs a month this month, 1 next and 2 again the month after.
As far the pictures they are for what we in America call “Marketing”. The provide shock/entertainment/comedy value to draw in an audience to read their article’s peruse the site and hopefully by their products. If you see some hugemongus person then it’s obviously possible, maybe it’s possible with steriods maybe without all you need to know is it’s possible and you should read the article if it interest you.
If an author says “I will make you look like this” specifically, then how about you follow the exact program and diet, then come back when its all over and say you should’ve used steriods. But as of right now your making a blanket statement based on no facts but your perception based on what you could not achieve.
I don’t completely agree with the OP, but I can understand how the ads on this site can be a bit misleading. Today’s article on the benefits of beta-alanine has a picture of a bodybuilder whose physique was definitely not created by just hard training and Biotest supplements alone.
OP, go check out the RMP section. There will be a few steroid users, but there are also many guys who simply trained and ate their ways to solid physiques. You can also check out their routines if they are kind enough to post to see what a natural lifter’s log might look like. It’s time to stop whining and start lifting.
You will not be able to find any 2 studies that can will agree on the maximum amount of weight you can gain naturally per month/week or whatever, with or without steriods. EVERY person is differnt, as well as every point in your life is different. You may be able to gain a 2 lbs a month this month, 1 next and 2 again the month after.
[/quote]
You are correct, but there is a range which is often quoted by personal trainers/strength coaches as the most muscle they have seen a client gain in one year. I’ve never seen a trainer or coach claim natural gains of over 25 lbs of muscle/year in a client. However, these are still massive gains for even AAS users so it is clear that great progress can be made by a natural lifter.