some of what Dre has said is legit. Teddy Roosevelt noticed the same thing–the overwhelming abundance of wealth in some individuals, that noncoincidentally had monopolies-- and he, not a communist, but a fiend to the folly filled idea of laisez faire-- did his best to break apart the wealth. I am all for people doing the american dream and getting rich, but the megacorps like Microsoft, for the most part are still one step ahead of the government. They still can buy up supply lines, sell at a loss, etc. Athletes and entertainers are rich, fine the public actually through supply and demand wants them to be that way. Its the supercompanies that become insanely powerful that ruin bussiness opportunities for entepreneurs, because clearly darwinism cannot be farely applied to bussines (although people like carnegie and morgan claimed otherwise). Finally, people who work long and hard to become rich, should be rewarded, they just shouldn’t become so powerful that they can prevent others from doing what they did (working hard and long hours…).
For the last time, the poor do not pay taxes in the U.S. In fact, the poor recieve a Earned Income Tax credit. Fact, the top 1% of wage earners of this country pay 40% of the tax burden! The top 5% pay over 50% of the burden. So dre you make the equivalent of 100,000 U.S.? You could live on much less than that. So, maybe you should lead by example and donate enough to the government so you won’t be unfairly living better than the poor. Just a thought.
You people are hopeless. I can’t believe there are people who actually believe that the poor are poor because they are lazy and don’t want to work. Talk about the ignorant. Yes there are some people who are lazy and don’t want to work but the majority of the poor are not like that. That is a stereotype created by ignorant people. The poor make easy targets because they can not afford to defend themselves. Today a person is not likely able to come here poor as dirt and become middle class. Today you need expensive university degrees just to get a job that pays half decent money. Back in the old days you could quit school in grade 6 and still get any job you wanted. Poor people are also overpoliced by the police. This is because of the sterotypes created that the poor are criminal and lazy. People are not going to be able to get a decent job if they have a criminal record.
So MolsonMan how did I do it? I was poor as hell. Still am compared to many people. But, I am paying my own way through school by working full time and saving. Trust me, there are many more stories like mine. So, if myself and others can do it why can’t they? Because with all their bitching the angry poor have decided they won’t make sacrifices in the short term. Can’t afford a top university, go to a community college until your grades are good enough to apply for scholarships. A little something I had to do. What is left over in tuition, at my present university, I pay with my paycheck.
molsonman, the poor are there because they want to be. There are so many college programs out there it is ridiculous. Poor? go to the army, they’ll pay for college. Hell, the navy offers me $10,000 up front and $2100 a month until I graduate college if I’ll go to officer training when I get out. My father was so poor he used to wear homemade shirts made out of sackcloths. He got a masters degree. There are student loans everywhere. Yeah, when you graduate you’ll be in debt, but you can get a good job and you won’t be so “poor.” Most people just don’t open their eyes or believe in themselves that they can accomplish what they want. Sounds something a guidance counselor would say, but it’s true. Anyway, in regards to this entire thread, I’ll just say anyone who tells me what to do with my money or my body can fucking rot in hell.
Would you rather have equality or freedom?
You can’t have both. If you would prefer
equality, then you accept slavery. If you
would prefer freedom, then you accept
inequality. Read the story Harrison
Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. Fact:
inequality is inherent in nature. Some people
are taller. Some are “smarter”. Some are
better looking. Some people have better
muscle insertion points. Some are born into
wealth, some are not. Everyone can take what
they start with and make the best of it. Or
not.
If you want to help others who are not as well off as you, nothing is stopping you. However, forcing other people against their will, at the barrel of a gun, to "help" others is immoral. And forcing "help" onto those who do not want it is also immoral.
Case study: (for those of you who think you can't "make it" starting with nothing) The latino woman that cleans my offices, came to the US at 17 as an illegal immigrant with no skills, no money, and couldn't even speak english. She lived with friends. She got a minimum wage job as a cleaning lady. Taught herself english. Learned about business. Saved her money. Started her own cleaning business. Now employs a dozen people and now lives a nice life. Pays for her 2 kids college. I have my own personal case study as well, but I value my privacy - so I don't want to discuss it.
There seems to be a fundamental difference of perspective here: those people who see individuals as helpless victims to external events and who *are not* responsible for the status of their lives. Then there are those people who see individuals as having the power to control their own destiny and thus *are* responsible for the status of their lives. The thing is, they're both correct. If you think you are helpless than you are, and you are fucked - even if someone helps you, you are a helpless dependent because you can't help yourself. If you think you can take control of your life - if you think you *can* help yourself, then you can, and will probably succeed if you try hard enough and smart enough. This is a fundamental mindset difference that you have to consider. The thing is, one works, the other doesn't.
Personally, I think the only way you can ever actually help someone is to teach them to help themselves. If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day. If you teach him to fish, he eats for a lifetime. But you can't help someone who doesn't believe he is capable of learning how to fish, or is unwilling to put in the effort to do so.
And if you have a problem with some "mega- corp," then don't shop at WalMart. Or don't buy Microsoft products. Patronize alternatives, or create your own. It can be done. I've observed it myself, on many occasions. The Microsofts and WalMarts of the world are not omnipotent.
What’s with the attitude? We don’t have to agree. Do we? Now, I’m seeing things from a European point of view. We have a totally different history from you guys. Different values, different morals, different cultures, so, it’s only natural that there is difference of opinion. The difference is probably anthropological in nature. I have respect for your culture - though I probably wouldn’t be comfort-able living in it. I use practically every sort of American pop-culture - and I love it. You sure know how to entertain. So please don’t see my comment as an attack.
Now, I need to set a few things straight.
Eag, Denmark? - Are you kidding' me – Denmark question mark... Nearly every American has a Danish ancestor. - So be a bit respectful, will ya? About your talk about inventions... Why go there. - What's that got to do with anything. Anyway, if you must know, Denmark has come up with lots of great inventions. Well I missed your interpretation of what a great invention is but I guess you mean something that benefits the all - right? Here are a few I remember:
Made first mass-produced electrical car.
Insulin – I think.
Invented Lego - talk about teaching children to be productive.
First windmill – Denmark is today largest manufacturer of windmills.
Leading in the field of wave-energy.
- And in the field of science we have made quite a few breakthroughs as well. Fx, we came up with the cure for malaria saving +2.000.000 lives a year. Denmark was also responsible for the report making it official to the world that humans really are the ones causing global warming with exces-sive usage of fossil fuels, thereby making every country in the world (except for one - the US) make agendas to lower their co2 pollution. Compared to size, Denmark is both richer and more produc-tive than the US, so don’t go there.
John, I stand by my statement. It is you that need to do some research on Russian history. You are talking Stalin, friend. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Hyok, I agree. Making it black and white - or red and blue doesn’t help anyone. If there were a uni-versal truth, it would be color-less. Truth is sterile, so quit acting like anyone is right or wrong here. In essence seeing things through one set of eyes makes both the red and the blue turn yellow.
Kisses / Rasmus
Well, I guess I’ll add my two cents’ worth. Molsonman, I gotta disagree with you. Your reasoning has a lot of holes in it - as when you say that the poor are “overpoliced” and then jump from that to saying that having a criminal record makes it more difficult to get a job. Yeah, that does make it more difficult, but simply having the police watching you doesn’t automatically require you to commit a crime, does it? In other words, whether the police are watching or not, if you don’t commit a crime, you won’t have a criminal record. And if you thnk that people can’t come to America and rise today (like they did in the past), well, I know a lot of Asians who have done and are doing just that. But of course they are willing to take whatever job presents itself, and do it well. My bet is you haven’t spent any time in Asia, or you would know what a real work ethic is. If you go to Los Angeles and look at the homeless people there, every one of 'em is Black or White. Not an Asian or Hispanic in the lot. So yeah, if those two racial/ethnic minorities can do it (often without even the benefit of having native English), I DO think that most of those guys begging bucks are just plain lazy. (Not of the above is meant as a flame, bud.)
Also, a point that hasn't been brought up yet: It takes a concentration of wealth before you can do anything meaningful with it. So I disagree with Dre that anything over 100M is a waste. Carnegie was legendary for his donations and charities. The National Park system? Originally funded by wealthy people. Chicago University? Basically created with Rockefeller money, as was Spellman college in Georgia. There are countless other examples. My point is that if you took all of say, Bill Gates' billions and redistributed it to every American, so that everyone got their $600 or whatever, it would make a significant difference in very few of those people's lives. But Gates himself might do something significant with it. (Or he might piss it away. It depends on the person, of course.) Nah, put me down firmly on the work-hard-and-make-yourself-wealthy-if-you-want-money side.
Lenin-No, I wasn’t thinking of Stalin, since he was not in power (last I checked) in 1917. I think I read enough about this stuff, since my major is international affairs w/a concentration on Eastern Europe. In addition, my university has ties with, and works with, Mikhail Gorbachev (he was our commencement speaker in '97 incidentally) so unless “Gorby” and Professor Jeffrey Burds have forgotten their Russian history, you are most certainly incorrect.
Lenin-One thing I agree with you one is that Denmark is pretty good. I have friends there who I visited last weekend.
Okay John let’s get this over with quickly as it is interfering with the discussion. No, it was Lenin who was in power in 1917 he was the one who kicked out the zar (is that the english word too?) in the great revolution remember? I don’t remember when Stalin took over but I think it was shortly before WWII. I know I’m right on this one.
I’m happy to hear that you liked my country.
Ciao / Rasmus
Maintaining Rasta Farian integrity since 1997
Durin much of Lenin’s rule Russia was in economic chaos, it suffered a drought in 1921, causing widespread famine and disease. The American Relief Administration, under the direction of Herbert Hoover, fed millions, but many still died. In 1921 Lenin inaugurated the New Economic Policy (NEP), encouraging individual initiative in the farm sector. The NEP temporarily reinvigorated the Soviet economy by providing sufficient food for the workers. There were also workers revolts (due to terrible wages, conditions, etc.) in several areas such as Kronstadt in 1921 which had to be brutally suppress. That’s interesting, since the Bolsheviks gained their support with the slogan “Peace, Bread, Land”. Well, they had peace (after the Bret-Livtosk treaty) and land (after the redistribution). It seems that many people still didn’t feel there was enough “bread” to go around. I’m not saying there was no progress under Lenin, but it is absolutely false to assert that there was no poverty in Russia during Lenin.
Stalin assumed power in 1927, three years after Lenin diet. At least, that is when Trotsky decided that all hope was lost of overcoming Stalinist supremecy
I just wanted to say (as a multiple contributor to this thread), that I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the thoughts expressed by people from all points of view on this thread. It’s refreshing to have an intelligent discussion or a respectful debate with people who can intelligently state their cases and not take other people’s political/philosophical opinions too personally. Keep ‘em comin’!
By the way, sorry for the politics/history rant everyone. I just get a little “excited” sometimes. hehe
“Prosperity is a way of living and thinking, and not just money or things. Poverty is a way of living and thinking, and not just a lack of money or things.” - Eric Butterworth, author of Spiritual Economics
For those of you that think most rich people are given the money through inheritance, or have better luck, or believe that the average person doesn’t have the provided “perks” to become rich - read a book called “The Millionaire Mind.” You will probably be suprised. This book will drown you in statistics, but will also open your eyes to see that wealth, like sucessful body building, comes with a mindset that the average person doesn’t have.
The bottom line is everyone comes to the US from other countries, not the other way around. And there’s a reason for it.
Get over it! Why don’t you move to a socialistic country if you want it that way. I must have had bad parents because they told me life wasn’t fair. Typical socialistic behavior states that if all is not even someone is to blame or someone is getting screwed. Dre you have had some good posts in the past but this is ridiculus, did someone crap in your cheerios this morning?
This whole conversation is WAAAY off-topic…but I love it, and I’m glad someone posted it. In recent polls, over 70% of Americans stated they were concerned about how much intrusiveness into daily life was being done by corporations–they’ve co-opted our politics, culture, music, diet, fashion, vocabulary, morals, and environments. But on the other hand, we’ve LET them do this. We keep buying Nike (for example), knowing full well they’re at the top of the National Labor Commission’s list of worst sweatshop/human rights offenders, and we resent corporate intusiveness, but then slag off protestors of the WTO. Frankly, this debate reminds of Ralph Nader’s campaign, in which he held up a copy of Business Week Magazine with a cover story concluding that corporations had “too much power over citizen life.” I voted for Ralph because of his experience in “ethical capitalism”, as opposed to socialism or hyperconsumerism.
“Capatalism is the worst system out there… except for all the other ones.” – Winston Churchill