The fact that you live in America does not mean you have the ability to become rich. Many social factors prevent a lot of people from making a better living than their parents.
I was going to reply to this, but most of the posts here pretty much sum up what I have to say. It’s good to see that all of you T-Men on this board have something left upstairs for subjects beyond iron.
I second everyone else’s motion. Study economics and history. Especially history. It’s been tried. It doesn’t work.
Lenin-Are you kidding me?!?! There was no poverty in Russia when Lenin was in power?? That’s the whole reason they pulled out of WWI! You need do to a lot more research into Soviet Russia before you make statements like those.
Everyone is trying to state this issue in a black and white manner, but it has many shades of gray. Redistribution of wealth IS an important function of government. People talk about how socialism has failed. I would say that elements of socialism SAVED capitalism. Capitalism running wild led to the stock market crash of 1929. FDR’s social programs were just that, socialist in nature. If we want to tout the vitues of the U.S. system, it only validates the idea that the ideal system judiciously redistributes wealth without killing off the entrepreneurial spirit.
Denmark? What was the last great invention to come out of Denmark? Name the great inventions over the last 100 years and its almost gauranteed to have been invented in America.
Hmm, I wonder why.
I also wonder why I should bear a heavier tax burden than others when I’m busting my ass 60-80 hours a week to make 6 figures. Are the roads I drive on any better than the roads you drive on? Do i use more government services than those who make less? No, in fact i use far less.
And what is it about being born that automaticlly entitles someone to get a free ride from the rich? I didn’t tell you to drop out of school. I didn’t ask you to have 4 kids that you can’t afford. So why are you now my responsibility? You were the one who thought it wasn’t cool to do well in school. you were the one who thought it was a better idea to skip school and hang on the corner with your homies drinking beer and smoking weed. Now you’ve reaped what you’ve sown. And i’m the asshole because i don’t want to give you the money i’ve worked for? Bullshit.
People need to take responsibility for their own choices and actions. if you fuck up, you deal with it, don’t come running to me to solve your problems. If you don’t like the fact I make more money than you, then you go to college and grad school and you work the hours I work, then you’ll have nothing to complain about.
Does having or emassing wealth truely make one happy and fufilled. Money is only around while as long as you can bite and scratch to keep it in the short term. When your life on earth is done what do you have to show for it.So you had some $ and you biult some biuldings and financed a play or two. If that is all you lived for then your life is truely done. True happieness can never be bought or sold.I personally have seen and talked to those how have some much but are truelly shallow and hollow.Let the rich be rich.In the end they will have nothing.
Hyok,
You are correct in that PURE capitalism, without any rules, regulations and government oversight at all would be distastrous - a sort of economic and social anarchy. Also, I do not claim that all social programs are worthless or unnecessary; of course safety nets should be in place to help prevent those at the bottom from falling through the cracks. However, the social programs that have been instituted by the federal govenment in this country, initially by FDR and then by LBJ in his “war on poverty,” have been DISMAL FAILURES. I realize that the intentions were good, but the methods were obviously bad. And the problem with those programs does NOT stem from needing more money to fund them! Not that I have time to get into all of these programs, but the welfare system in this country has created an incorrigible, vicious cycle, a welfare state, where a very large number of those on welfare have no incentive to get off the system and get up on their own two feet. Clinton, to his credit, along with many state governors, did reform welfare somewhat a few years back, and that was a significant step in the right direction. But taxing the rich in order to collect more money to just throw at the problem is NOT the solution here. Do you think it would be wise to take those dollars and directly HAND them to the poor? How would that affect their incentives to work, become productive, create something themselves and get off the system? The best thing the government can do for the poor (other than the basics, such as providing a TEMPORARY welfare system, Medicaid, etc.) is to make it easier for them to SUCCEED in getting educated, in entrepreneurship, in keeping, saving and investing their own money, and in growing the economy as a whole so that the whole pie, INCLUDING those at the bottom, grows.
Damici, I don’t have much to disagree with your post. What I mean by “redistribution” of wealth does not simply mean welfare programs. Having the rich pay higher taxes which eventually go to pay for a public good such a national park or highways is a form of redistribution of wealth that is not a handout. I do not think handouts are the best things either, but without welfare, we would have had nothing on the dinner table when my father was laid off for 8 months. Not everyone is as motivated to find a job like my father–I realize that. I’m more in favor of government intervention that helps people be more independent, such as retraining programs and educational assistance. Maybe then my father wouldn’t be working the same unfulfilling line of work as a janitor. All the knowledge he has in his head from his extensive readings doesn’t amount to a better job because he doesn’t have a degree. That is where government can help.
Lenin, I am glad to see that paying taxes gives you joy. If you paid my taxes for me, we both could have joy. Seriously though, in most countries today, if you can find what you are good at and enjoy it and put in the time, wealth will come if you are willing to be courageous and take some risks. Granted, that can not be the case in certain countries such as North Korea, but it is certainly true in the U.S., Europe and most of South America. The trick is to find that special job or service that you are best at and have the balls to take it to the next level.
Eag, are you for real? Peole are not poor because they don’t want to work/lazy, or have bad morals. They are poor because soceity gives them limited resources to succeed. Most rich people are born rich and have every advantage given to them. Notice I said most. Yes there are a few that actually earn it but that is very uncommon. Even the people who “earn it” have a lot of advantages given to them. My parents are middle class so I can afford to go to university. Meanwhile someone who has poor parents can’t afford university even if they have good marks. Full scholarships are given to athletes (this should not be) and the people with the highest of the high marks (usually middle class and higher people who had parent support in highschool).
eag, that was some funny stuff man. Very true. Anyway, Damici, you can shelter a ton of your wealth through corporations and real-estate. You don’t get taxed if you use the money from the building you just sold to buy a bigger one. Its called a rollover. This is what I’m talking about. The rich have tons of free time, so they hire accountants and tax experts to shelter most of their money. Have you ever read “Rich Dad Poor Dad” by Robert Kiyosaki? This guy spends all his time investing and sheltering his wealth. I bet you anything the rich are paying less proportionately. Sure a guy who only makes 30,000 is paying far less than the rich as far as the actual amount, but proportionately, I think not. Personaly I say mega corporations should be taxed much more than individuals. Most mega corporations are running all over small business and innovators.
Dre: Just a few points.
First, what you are advocating *is* socialism. And as others have pointed out, collectivism and wealth redistribution don't work very well.
You can't/don't create value by stealing wealth from those who produce it and redistributing it to those who don't.
Likewise, you can't cure poverty by giving poor people money.
Second, what you want already exists in most first world countries. Do the research on how much money Bill Gates etc. pay in "taxes". Wealthy people have a tremendously disproportional amount of their wealth stolen from them compared to everyone else.
Also, your statement that the general population is getting poorer is a complete myth. It is factually incorrect. If you look at income research (see the Economist stats) and adjust that for inflation/deflation you will see that in most parts of the world, the rich are getting richer, and the working class and middle class are ... getting richer. Opportunity is available to anyone who wants to take advantage of it. Poor people are poor because they don't, or are incapable of doing so. It's just that the wealthy are increasing their wealth faster than everyone else. This is due to a phenomenon known as "compound interest" and "return on investments." Take a course in finance, and you to can use these to your advantage.
Let me ask you a question: Do you believe that it is ok to steal from someone by pointing a gun at them? What you advocate is no different from that.
Let me recommend something to read:
http://www.heritage.org/library/lecture/hl703.html
This (long) article points out the disaster that is about to happen to the US, due to income redistribution. More americans (more than 50%) are now the recipients of wealth redistribution than are involved in wealth creation. So again, what you are advocating is already in place - and it doesn't seem to be working out too well.
Jonnyjon,
It’s true that if you sell one building to buy another you’re not taxed on that money - you SHOULDN’T BE! It’s not INCOME. All of the money we’re discussing (money that’s used to buy real estate or practically any other asset) consists of POST-TAX dollars – the tax has ALREADY been pain on those dollars when you first earned them (in the form of income tax), so why should they be taxed a second or third time? There’s nothing wrong, unfair or immoral about investing your own post-tax money. YES, the rich hire accountants and asset managers to help them avoid paying any more tax than is necessary - as would you. And a great reason for the need for these advisors is that our tax code is so ridiculously, ludicrously complicated and bureaocratic that it’s no small task to figure out what you owe or don’t owe if you have a significant amount of wealth, assets, dependents, charitable donations, write-offs, etc. (By the way, though, I’d bet my bottom dollar that most of the rich don’t have a lot of free time – read the book “The Millionaire Next Door,” as someone here suggested. Most people who are wealthy in this country did NOT inherit it, and have gotten that way be working long, tedious hours and putting their guts into their businesses. That’s just a statistical fact). And again, there is NO WAY the rich are paying less in taxes proportionally than the lower and middle classes – the marginal rates INCREASE as you go UP the income ladder. Do they pay tax on already existing, post-tax wealth, money that they’ve already paid income taxes on in the first place? Of course not. That wouldn’t make any sense.
It is to the benefit of ALL of society as a whole, the poor included, to have more dollars in the hands of the private sector, INCLUDING the rich, than to have it in the hands of the government. When you start making more money, you start buying new clothes (helping those who work in the clothing manufacturing plants), get your shoes shined more often (helping the guys who shine shoes for a living), buying yachts (helping those who build and maintain yachts for a living), etc. It’s pretty simple, really . . .
the poor don’t pay taxes. unless, they are mentally or physically incapable then the poor can go to college and better their lives. I grew poorer than most everyone in my school and I’m now in college. How do I pay for it? Well, I work 40 hrs. a week. I show up on time, I don’t call in faking sick, I don’t argue with my boss when he asks me to do something. If the poor really want to better their state in life they can do it (at least in this country). I have a hard time watching people purchase food with foodstamps and then bust out their stash of cash to buy their beer and cigarettes. bye
I own a company that is small, but I am not threatened by the large conglomerates. I also pay more in taxes then most do,But I also work 15-20 hours a day and 7 days a week too. I am sure that has nothing to do with it does it? You want to get rich then do it. I came from a welfare society, all my family was on it. I am not, I busted my ass to get where I am right now, and If you want to be here then I would suggest instead of bitching about it. Do something about it.This is america man,where you can start a company with aid from the government. You can get training with aid from the government. I would say your ideas are socialistic, I guess if I own two cows you want one,and the milk too right?
Dre… I think you bring up some good points. I don’t know all the statistics, but I agree that it is unfortunate what is happening with “mom and pop” type operations. However, it is this very phenomenon that allows us in the US to live in the splendor we do. I think one of the real issues here is that too much money falls through the cracks, especially in tax dollars. The government, instead of spending money judiciously, diverts money to so many ludicrous programs and subsidies that it would make one dizzy to see how much money is being tossed out. Much of this money needs to be rediverted to worthy causes, namely the education of the poor. I’d venture a guess that, what makes many poor people appear like the consumer slobs they sometimes appear to be is ignorance. People who grow up in “privileged” environments, more specifically, environments that can afford to educate their children, are armed with at least the ability and potential to succeed and see things more clearly. Poor people, on the other hand, are often left to rot in their shitty neighborhoods, often saturated with problems like crime, drugs, etc. These poor people have very little incentive to do the “right” thing and fall into the vicious cycle created by lack of education, and thus, opportunities.
There’s nothing wrong with rich people having the money they do; many do indeed work their asses off for it and pay a steep price to get that money in the way of educating themselves, time spent in the office, etc. Can’t blame them for wanting to be justly compensated. But some blame certainly lies in the government for allowing so many billions of dollars disappear or get siphoned off into things like the upkeep of the “truckdriver’s museum” somewhere in the midwest (this is true) while my good man, Tony from Bushwick, NYC, grew up ignorant and had no access to decent education in his neighborhood because his schools were of substandard caliber. Why? BEcause the government is not pouring money into valid causes like educating the poor, and instead chooses to throw money away by allowing families and such to stay glued to welfare and remain blissfully ignorant and consumerist (sic) in their ways. Education and alleviation of ignorance creates much more productivity and awareness.
Dennis Leary once said,“Life’s not fair, buy a fucking helmet!” Now that some good t-men have explained capitalism and hard work, study hard, work hard, work smart, and stop the whining! Here ends the lesson, I have to go train in the office gym that I have built on the backs of the proletariat, or whatever the commies say these days.
socialism?? communism?? jason baran, where are you??
yeah I’m for real. My great grandparents came to this country from Russia poor as dirt. my great grandmother plucked chickens in a deli 6 days a week to help support the family. She also took in laundry from the neighbors and helped clean homes. They always preached hard work and education to my grandmother. My grandmother married the son of immigrants. His parents pushed him to get an education, which he did. They lived a middle class lifestyle and pushed their work ethic and their belief in education on my father. my father followed their advice and went to college and grad school all the time working “menial” jobs. He’s worked hard durring his life and succeeded because of it. those same values were passed on to us. now I have an education and work hard and make 6 figures.
If my family can start out poor, uneducated, and unskilled, with my great grandmother plucking fucking chickens 7 days a week, i don’t want to hear from anyone how some people can’t make it because of their social situation. That’s just another excuse for people unwilling to do whats neccesary to get ahead in life. If someone thinks their uneducated, unskilled, lazy ass is “too good” to start off at $5 an hour, fuck em, they can rot in the street for al i care.
Damn - whats with all the rudeness. And the ill mannered assumptions about the post and poster. FYI - I am not in the USA, I have degrees in law and finance, make WELL over $100k US, own a 2 storey 5 bedroom house in an affluent area with sea views which I will pay off this year, and am now facing the decision of buying another house, a night club, or just pissing money away. Is this like the have nots being their own worst enemies and suffering by their own “holier that thou” economic ideals. How fucking sad. And how fucking ignorant do you have to be to see that ANY circumstance whereby on individual burns tonnes of a non renewable resource, and damages the environment, is a bad thing. Again, the point related only to wealth and income beyond that which reasonably can be used like $100 and some of you carry on like Marx and Stalin rolled into - many countries have progressive tax systems whereby higher income earners pay a greater % of tax. Bill and other condescenders, thanks for the oh so polite guidance but FYI a set % income tax plus a VAT or GST is actually regressive and the poor pay a greater percentage of their income as tax. I suppose ignorance really is bliss. In any event, I thought the topic was an interesting one but dont see the point in encouraging further ill mannered posts so Ill walk away from this one because as some may have previously noticed I always do where negativity and ignorant flaming occurs.