molsonman, my parents had no money, and i am in school now. on my student loan app. there was no mandatory space to provide my race. i will pay just like everyone else in society can. if you want it bad enough you find a way. society does not limit people, that just gives them an excuse to never amount to anything. laziness plays a huge role in todays society. get off your ass and get it for yourself, no one owes you anything.
Overpolicing isn’t just the police watching you. It is the police harassing you because of who you are. The police charging you with things like jay walking or loitering because of the way you look or dress. Getting arrested and convicted of a crime because a person of your ethnicity or social class robbed a store near by. The police actually planting fake evidence because they don’t like you.
maxtram: you make a very good point about
“scarcity thinking” vs “expandable pie”
thinking. Freedom and free markets allow
individuals to expand the pie. Wealth
redistrubution, at best, merely reshapes
the same size pie, and probably shrinks it
due to disincentive.
Chris Shugart: That quote states exactly the point I was trying to make in my second post - but does so much more elegantly. Thanks.
It has been stated many times here that the poor are somehow forced to stay poor. The truth of the matter is that the poor are given strong suggestions to stay poor, but noone is forced to do anything. Poor kids who are surrounded by people with poor motivation often accept this as a way of life. Kids who are raised in crime infested neighborhoods also can very easily see that lifestyle as normal. So yes it may be harder for people who start poor to get rich, life isnt fair. But the beauty of this country is that it is not impossible to rise from the bottom. Just as we all build our bodies through hours of intense work, we can build our careers and wealth. Anything you want is obtainable, but sitting around bitching about how bad everything is will never get it for you.
Dre, I appreciate your points. However, I think that you have had too much “liberal Arts” doctrine shove up your ass! People are not poor because others are rich. That is just what loser socialist members who rather talk then work want you to believe. I work my ass off for my living and anyone that tells me that because I make a good living someone else is not is full of shit. A great deal of poor people are lazy as hell and are just looking for handouts. Why shouild I or anyone else give them something for nothing. Income caps are a dumb ass idea and will stunt people from being creative and providing value for others.
Why capitalism is good, socialism is evil:
Socialism is the act of the Vangard (elected or not) controlling the masses through force (or the threat of force). Capitalism is FREE action amoungst individuals, be they persons, groups, charities, governments, companies and so forth. Trade is what actualizes (or creates) value/wealth. Governments can only limit this with intervention. Wealth is good (if you think there is a lack of distribution of it, give yours, which you are free to accumulate under capitalism, to whom ever you like). On a humanitarian note, governments (the necessary vehicle for socialism) have killed their OWN citizens since the dawn of time; 6,000,000 Jews in Germany in the 1940s, about 5 Million Ukranians in 1932 (Lenin makes McVeigh look like Mother Teresa), approximately one million Indonesions in the last 25 years, and over 40 MILLION Chinese in the last 35 years. Big oil, big tobacco, Microsoft and our own T-Mag couldent even force you to use their products. Trusting the government has been the mark of a fool since Rome was a new Empire. Think for your self.
although i think the whole idea of socialism maybe fatally flawed, i don’t really condone people of the same belief using fake support. A History note for colin— 1)Nazi’s although called the “national-socialist party” were not socialists, they were facists, and facists HATED THE COMUNISTS of russia/ USSR 2)Lenin did kill a lot of people in the civil war in Russia. However he died long before the '30s. The Ukranian purges that you speak of were conducted by Stalin. Finally, any “free group” that has a monopoly can more or less force you to use their product-- look at OPEC, they control virtually all of the world’s oil, and our government and people AND Business rely on it. Thats the end of the lesson.
Ok I see some of my fellow Canucks spouting off agin about the rich and taes well here is this Canadian’s story.
My Dad grew up dirt poor, my grandfather worked his ass off for the railway for 43 years of his life and always made sure food was on the table and clothes on the backs of his wife and 5 children. He also had a shitload in medical bills for his mother’s illness as medicare wasn’t the holy grail in Canada at that time yet.He instilled an inhuman work ethic into my Dad and felt that it was his duty to himself and his father’s sacrifice to make the most of his own life as far as success goes. My Dad with his high schoold education and training as a millright worked for the same company for almost 25 years working up to Vice President. He was getting fed up and ready to leave (I remember because he saved my life by giving me a job sweeping the floors lol). He got an offer he could not refuse and bought the divison he ran putting all his savings and everything up as collateral.
He worked his ass off, which cost him his marriage even though she was standing there with her hand out when they broke up. Pays a shitload of taxes a year thru our company and personally, and now today we are the second biggest manufacturer of our type of product in North America.
After almost 8 years of working like a nut he is now quite wealthy and can sit back and relax a bit as he put all of us in our proper positions in the company.Wanna know something funny? He pays in excess of 50% of what he makes more or less to taxes. Is that fair? He uses all the same social perks like healthcare and the roads like everyone else, but doesn’t get the same return on investment(Ie taxes) like the dickheads who sit at home and collect welfare(sorry but at least 50% of the people I know on the dole are full of shit)
Now I am the next generation coming up and let me tell you I work with him and have been handed nothing. I started out 10 years ago in the plant at $7/hr(canadian$$) and eventually after 3 years worked up to sales which was something I did not ever think I had a gift for but he and others saw it thank god.
In May 96 after alot of pestering I got my chance. I came to Ontario to start up the territory here and until 2 months ago lived in absolute poverty.Did I ask for more money? Nope. Did anyone help me out when creditors came calling because I owed money personally? Nope. Did I get on a list to get to live in low income housing like next door to my old place which is a joke because I saw so many of the so called low income people driving Acura’s and Jeeps. Did I pay 50% in Taxes to the government? Nope. Around 30% was what I was paying. Did I bitch? Yep. Am I fast approaching the 50% range today? Yep. Know what I learned? That no matter your income you are getting shafted by the government one way or the other so the only thing to do is keep striving to better yourself and improve your income and so on and so forth.Basically I am not going to sit around and bitch about living paycheck to paycheck. I am going to strive to CREATE as much wealth for myself and others and I refuse to feel guilty whether I end up making $10 or $10 million dollars. I will have earned every penny of it.
So you Canadians and Americans too who are moaning and bitching about people who are supposedly "lucky" to make money cut it out. The poor in North America don't know what poor is, I have never seen a poor person in North America starve unless by their own doing. My point of this is that no matter what life deals you, IT"S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY not everyone elses to get off your ass and do something to improve your situation.
And if you don’t like the fact that there are poor people out there then do something about it. Volunteer, feed them, donate your time or money or maybe help someone underpriveledged get the confidence and backing to help themselves.
Thats the problem with our society today the majority seem to think they are owed or entitled to get things. You have to work for it sorry.
But Andrew, for a liberal the answer to
their feelings for the “disadvantaged” is
not to themselves drive a much cheaper car,
live in a much cheaper home, have much
cheaper clothes etc. and voluntarily give
thousands of dollars of their money to help… no, it’s to push for the government to take by force tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars from OTHER people who make more: doctors, engineers, scientists, businessman, etc… all those parasites on society who are stealing from the poor and who are to blame for their poverty.
I hear ya bro. A flat tax is a tax hike for the middle class and a tax cut for the rich. This country is getting screwed up slowly but surely. Hell, socialism ain’t all that bad. The only people that would oppose it are the wealthiest 1%. We see big companies slowly monopolizing different areas of life. Maybe not just one company, but like 2 or 3 run the entire nation in say TV, computers, communications, etc…
Still chasing our tail here I see. I may be wrong but I think this post was a vent about about unneccesarry excess and its consequences (eg environmental) and not a debate of the relative merits of capitalism and socialism. There really is alot to be said about understaning a thread, and understanding your own limitaitons, before you barf on it with something of questionable relevance. For the information of the one eyed preacher posts, there must be some weird cultural thing going on here cause the rude “black or white” knee jerk smacks of paranoia or some other defect of logic. Either that or McCarthy is active on this board.
BUT thats not why I am posting on this thread one more time though ... I want to say a big what up to Monkeyboy Eric on his early post. Not only did you get my point, but your point about those responsible for excesses being brought to account by ... lets say the universe ... was brilliant and on topic when you look at the other trite that was thrown up. I sort or missed the first time and only say this now because by enormous coincidence I was reading a certain book on the weekend that said the very thing and sort of addressed my concern - it concluded with a well known parable about "a camel walking through the eye of a needle". Not that I will feel any better about it when I hear about John Travolta and a couple of his buddies flying around the world in a jumbo making his very own ozone hole and squandering a non renewable resource - but suffice to say its a little more relevant than talk of "pie", economic or in the nether regions of the posters. I think Ive been pretty responsive to you since you started posting but I really have to give you muchos credit on that post MB.
this is a note to the mods and to everyone of the forum. I DID NOT WRITE THAT LAST POST ON TAX CUTS. SOME ONE ELSE DID. PLEASE REMOVE IT. JEEZ.
Dre, I understand you are having an existencial crisis over the choice you have to make with your money. Maybe you really want to just spend it all on bullshit instead of having a headache of buying a dance club. By all means, do that. There is no need to start a discussion about fair redistribution of resources just because you are confused. Deal with your problem yourself and do not wish for some external force to take it away thereby making your decision easier. You are better than that.
That said, this is an interesting topic. I am from former USSR. I have seen the redistribution system fail miserably. Please, for the love of God, do not make the same mistake! It does not work. People in power take hold of all resources and use them to their advantage, leaving the rest to wallow in mediocrity.
This may just get lost in the plethora of posts that have come before, but I just gotta lend my $.02 on this one. For the most part, people are where they are economically because of HOW THEY THINK. Some one earlier said that if all the money were divided equally, it would be right back where it is in 10 years. That is right on. Want to make a change in the world? Then make the money yourself and do what YOU think is right with it. The wealthy that I run with do more good with their money than ANY athlete I’ve ever heard of. They do more for inner city programs for kids, world famine relief, helping out single moms, etc than I could even possibly post here. They don’t talk publically about it, though. One of these guys told me an example that has stuck with me – he was being razzed by one of his fellow church members about the expensive car he was driving (which is only a Mercedes 500SL, and a few years old at that), talking trash about him being so materialistic. He usually ignores this sort of thing, but he’d just had enough that day and told him, “If you’d spent the same percentage of your income for your car, you’d be putting your family on used roller skates. How materialistic does that make you?” The problem with the communist/socialist economy is that it destroys he human desire for betterment by taking away the rewards. I think I’ve gone on long enough for now – I just think you’re hanging with the wrong rich crowd.
Dre wrote: “I may be wrong but I think this
post was a vent about about unneccesarry
excess and its consequences (eg
environmental)”
Response: Since 3/4 of what you wrote in your original message was about income redistribution, and you only briefly mention "unnecessary excess" (whatever that is), it is easy to misinterpret the point of your message. Perhaps you should try to be more clear to more effectively communicate your point. Eg, bitch about environmental abuse, rather than using it as an excuse to redistribute wealth.
Dre wrote: "There really is alot to be said about understaning a thread, and understanding your own limitaitons, before you barf on it with something of questionable relevance."
Response: Exactly.