Permanent Gains from 6 Month Low Dose Cycle?

[grigory_alexandrovitch_pec]

Lmfao, extremely misleading label “only the youngest two groups” then goes on to say every under fucking 40 lmao. That’s like 90% of weightlifters.

[lordgains]

@grigory_alexandrovitch_pec

Maybe the time it takes to cleave the ester IS the half life they’re reporting

No. The testosterone stays esterified and gets taken up through lymphoid vessels, it then enters the blood stream and gets cleaved by unspecific esterases. The cleaving off only takes seconds, it is the absorption that’s responsible for the long half-life. That’s why it’s esterified, so it stays in tissue longer.

[grigory_alexandrovitch_pec]

I think the measurement time makes a huge huge difference and its criminal that those aren’t matched. That being said, I think the the consistency afforded by the added ester renders it significantly more consistent than what you would see with natural testosterone secretions throughout the day. For natural secretion, you see significant variation depending upon diet, sleep, exercise, mood, inflammation etc… Exogenous test deals with virtually none of these limitations, rendering the difference in consistency something like having Ron Jeremy as a dad vs Mr. Rogers. Imagine a graph that’s constantly going up and down vs a graph that looks like a tidal wave; smooth and consistent throughout until time of next injection.

[grigory_alexandrovitch_pec]

is what you’re saying that the half life of the drug is determined by the body and not the drug? Or if not, what accounts for the fact that one injection survives in the bloodstream for a week but normal test wouldn’t do that? It’s obviously not the same as regular test if it’s lasting a week, right?

[grigory_alexandrovitch_pec]

I’m not going to cite anymore sources because I’m tired, but it fluctuates a lot and in response to literally everything. You can half your test levels the next day just by drinking the night before or not sleeping enough,. You don’t have to deal with any of that on exogenous test.

[swoops39]

@grigory_alexandrovitch_pec

That’s like 90% of weightlifters.

I don’t think the researchers for this study cared who was a weight lifter and who was not. That’s not what they were looking at

[grigory_alexandrovitch_pec]

Indeed, but we do and that’s what we’re looking at. Either way very useful information.

[lordgains]

@grigory_alexandrovitch_pec

I think the the consistency afforded by the added ester renders it significantly more consistent than what you would see with natural testosterone secretions throughout the day. Imagine a graph that’s constantly going up and down vs a graph that looks like a tidal wave; smooth and consistent throughout until time of next injection.

Absolutely correct.

@grigory_alexandrovitch_pec

is what you’re saying that the half life of the drug is determined by the body and not the drug? Or if not, what accounts for the fact that one injection survives in the bloodstream for a week but normal test wouldn’t do that? It’s obviously not the same as regular test if it’s lasting a week, right?

1. Yes. The half life is always determined by the body as the half-life is a function of metabolism and excretion which are both determined by the body’s different biochemical systems.

2. The “injection” = the testosterone from the injection. The injection doesn’t reside in the blood for weeks. Just as long as normal Testosterone. You gotta imagine a 2 compartment system. One compartment is the muscle where you inject. One compartment is the blood stream. Testosterone gets delivered continuously from the muscle to the blood stream(days, absorption). From the blood stream it gets cleaved off (seconds, metabolism), does it’s magic and then gets eliminated (hours, metabolism and excretion). So the half-life is that long because of the residence in the tissue where you inject it. The limiting factor determines excretion in kinetics and taken together with absorption of determines how the plasma level curve looks like.

3. As soon as it enters the blood it is the same, as the conversion is super fast.

Note: your assessment is right that exogenous test with longer esters is different because it is continuously delivered and doesn’t fall extremely from morning to evening like it would in a natural BUT the testosterone does the same thing when it’s in the blood.

In conclusion: The difference is HOW LONG you levels are HOW HIGH. That are two variables which taken together can give you one number: AVERAGE LEVELS. If the average level is higher in your regimen, you’ll have a benefit over being natty. That doesn’t account for longer stimulation adequately though, but that would be way to complicated. Don’t over complicate things.

[iron_yuppie]

@grigory_alexandrovitch_pec

when you’re taking into account the side effects

Side effects on 500mg test for me were the following: empty space

Not everyone has issues. My BIL has been running 500 for the last nine weeks and has noticed absolutely no change in anything other than physique. Not everyone gets side effects at that dose.

[grigory_alexandrovitch_pec]

@grigory_alexandrovitch_pec

For natural secretion, you see significant variation depending upon diet, sleep, exercise, mood, inflammation etc… Exogenous test deals with virtually none of these limitations, rendering the difference in consistency something like having Ron Jeremy as a dad vs Mr. Rogers. Imagine a graph that’s constantly going up

That’s actually really interesting and kind of encouraging. Would you get significant shutdown after 8 weeks at 500?

[grigory_alexandrovitch_pec]

@lordgains

Note : your assessment is right that exogenous test with longer esters is different because it is continuously delivered and doesn’t fall extremely from morning to evening like it would in a natural BUT the testosterone does the same thing when it’s in the blood.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that’s actually super interesting; it kinda sounds like the muscle itself is used as a sort of slow release vesicle, increasing the half life. Also, as far as the absolute metric “How high levels are for how long exactly”, there is no standard measurement for that huh? You’d probably need continuous monitoring to get that kinda data and the thought of having a needle in me for 24 hours… yuk.

[iron_yuppie]

@grigory_alexandrovitch_pec

Would you get significant shutdown after 8 weeks at 500?

Yes. Probably several weeks before that.

[grigory_alexandrovitch_pec]

sounds about right:/ Unrelated question but what can you do to restart production? Does tapering the test work? Do you just wait for your body? Is there anything to enhance your bodies recovery?

[iron_yuppie]

Proper PCT is typically a SERM for 6-8 weeks. Tamoxifen (nolvadex) is the preferred drug because of the side effect profile. It is highly effective.

Based on the most exhaustive study ever done regarding steroid use, you technically do not need to run PCT. Your body naturally recovers on its own, though if you get back to baseline is always a question. But you won’t find many users who skip PCT. The SERM makes this happen faster and keeps you from feeling like absolute dog shit while you recover.

[mnben87]

IMO, it is foolish to skip PCT for the guys not on trt / cruise. Skipping PCT likely means losing more gains, which was the whole point of the cycle. I know you know this, but adding to the thread.

[iron_yuppie]

100% agree. But the study didn’t focus on gains or what was kept, they focused entirely on the hormonal response after a cycle. Science says you can skip PCT. But the reality is that nobody would do that because the goal is to put on muscle and then keep it. PCT allows you to do that, skipping it does not.

[lordgains]

@grigory_alexandrovitch_pec

“How high levels are for how long exactly”, there is no standard measurement for that huh?

Oh there is. You just take blood every hour or so. Then you see how the curve looks like. That’s how you calculate half-life too.

[myoscholar]

Duration will absolutely affect recovery.
At 6 months your HPTA will be completely offline, and restarting the HPT/HPG axis will take a lot of effort.
Your hypothesized protocol is not worth questioning for 6 months.
I believe a better hypothesis would be to do this for life.

Would it be better than relying on natural levels long term (for life) etc?
Good question imo

But 6 months, how do you plan on recovering?
You are paying for 6 months of optimal, stable T levels, but then recovery could put you at ~6 months sub-optimal levels, depressed, amongst other low T symptoms?

I don’t understand the point of doing this and advise you consider why you want to use exogenous T?

[alex_uk]

@grigory_alexandrovitch_pec

So I was doing that, but for every 2 weeks I’d go without gaining an ounce, I would add another 100 cals per day. I did this for 3 weeks without any change, then on the fourth week over the course of a couple days I gained 5 pounds of pure fat

Can I just check what you mean here, you ate 100 cals more for 14 days then an additional 100 for 14 days and gained 5lbs of fat?

Some questions and thoughts spring to mind, how do you know it was 5lb of just fat? It seems odd that in one week you’d gain 5lbs of fat (particularly from a total 4200 cals over 4 weeks - when theoretically that shouldn’t increase fat by any more than 1lb).

Would probably be beneficial for you to post up a ful overview of what you eat, your program and lifts and photos and have some of the guys on this site take a critique (post on the bigger stronger leaner forum). I think you’ve got room to grow naturally still.

[roadie]

No way you gained 5lb of fat. The numbers don’t add up- 100kcal of pure fat is about 10g even if you stored it all as fat it wouldn’t equate to 5lb

You added calories and stored them as glycogen. Theres something like 4g of water held for every 1g of glycogen (dont quote me as exact numbers as I cant remember).

You filled up on carbs and water.