Regardless of whether it’s the ester or the molecule itself, the test is bound to the ester so what difference does it make? Are you saying that the second you inject it, your body cleaves all the esters off and treats it as if it were regular unmodified test? Again, then how is it that one has an exponentially longer half life?
It should be noted that at your height that 170 lbs at 10% is actually pretty good. You likely are not topped out, but you likely don’t have easy gains left. 10% is shredded. Expect it to be a year to put on 2-3 lbs at this point (if the gains are muscle).
With TRT and a blast thrown in at 5’10", I would weigh about 190-195 if I were to get to 10% (190 assuming about 5 lbs of muscle lost in the cut process). An inch of height should mean 6-7 lbs more BW according to Arnold. That only would put me at 183-184 if I was 5’9" with 10% BF and muscle proportional to what I have now.
Yeah truth be told I’m not considering it anymore either considering the hassle of recouping after, at least not until my levels decline. I wanted to learn more about what to expect and I’m glad I asked. If you had told me I could keep a solid 8 pounds of muscle after my initially proposed scheme, I’d take it, but short of that it’s not worth it.
Your body can only use testosterone. It can’t process Test E or C. When you inject it slowly absorbs through the muscle it was injected in. The ester is slowly cleaved off to form testosterone. Think of it as slow release.
Thank you, I’ll take the compliment haha. I agree I have a little more room, I was at 175 before corona hit and I had to transition to a home gym and you’re exactly right, for the last 4-5 years gains have been about 1-2 pounds a year MAX. Once I hit 175 in 2019 everything stopped completely though, I think that’s my ceiling.
P.S. I’d be a very happy camper at 180-185 for 5’9.
Exactly, which is significantly more effective than regular test which burns up in minutes. Cypionate/enanthate lingers in the system and produces more consistent levels. You’re saying the same thing I am I think, but the implication is that it’s rendered far superior to the natural alternative.
Not the second you inject it (with the long esters you mentioned, anyway), but yes. That’s exactly what happens.
If that dose takes you above your natty levels you will keep as much as your natty levels will allow. If that dose takes you below your natty levels you will make better gains when you come off.
I have to echo a lot that has been said already though. Going on that dose is all risk no reward. You will be adding side effects and possible long term shut down for a dose that wont be that much more than average natty levels to begin with.
You will have fewer risks in a 10-12 week 500mg cycle and PCT. 6 Months on a low dose will be much harder to recover from.
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OP understands the implications very well. He is absolutely right that exogenous esterified Testosterone is way different than endogenous production. You are making a pharmacodynamic argument which is correct but you are missing his point: pharnacokinetics. Kinetics are the reason for the ester which you know but kinetics change the field completely when it comes to medication. The levels on a TRT regimen with Test C for example and EOD injections are far more stable and therefore higher at most times.
That is exactly the point OP is trying to convey.
OP, you gotta remember that the human body doesn’t produce test once a day. There’s continuous secretion even though there’s only one peak really. So @swoops39 s point about the difference not being there is understandable as not only testosterone from esterified testosterone is continuously released into the blood stream, but endogenous is too. The main difference is what @mnben87 said:
So yes, since you go for optimal levels with exogenous testosterone they will probably be more stable and higher than endogenous.
Your point that exogenous T is intrinsically better is therefore not correct, it’s only better in mnbens case of more average T (I say average with caution).
Fair enough.
At any rate, lots of good explanations coming out of this, which is always helpful
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Yep, considering average makes a big difference especially with low dosing frequency and testing at trough.
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Has anyone studied how much endogenous drops across a day?
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You sound more like you are lacking food than testosterone. Are you trying to gain whilst keeping calories only very slightly above maintenance? Are you trying to keep 10% whilst gaining? Might be possible but will significantly slow the process down, you might need to eat more for a prolonged period to break the plateau, and/or look at changing up your training.
Glad to hear you’ve decided against the proposed cycle either way.
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“For a 40-year-old, a morning testosterone reading may be 200 points higher than in the evening, versus a 50-point difference for a 70-year-old.”
That’s from a NYT article from 2015, I think.
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“Only the youngest 2 groups (ages <40 and 40-44 years) showed a large decrease in total testosterone in specimens collected after 9 am compared to those drawn between 7 am and 9 am (mean difference 207 and 149 ng/dL, respectively). This variation was not observed in patients over age 45.“
This is from an actual study, that separated into before 9a and after 9a groups
6 months?
This is crazy.
Chronicity is an issue when running exogenous hormones (arguably a bigger issue than the amount of hormone used).
You would be better off increasing your dose (ie 300mg) and reducing the duration to 8-10 weeks.
6 months, you would be not only shutting your own production down, it would take time and effort to recover.
How do you plan on recovering from such a regiment?
Every source I look up says the half life is measured in days for these esters and you’re claiming they’re rendered null and void “shortly after” administration, with no definition of shortly after. Maybe the time it takes to cleave the ester IS the half life they’re reporting, which is the same exact thing as having a testosterone with a half life of several days. Why would they bother reporting the half life if it’s all cleaved off right after you inject?
So I was doing that, but for every 2 weeks I’d go without gaining an ounce, I would add another 100 cals per day. I did this for 3 weeks without any change, then on the fourth week over the course of a couple days I gained 5 pounds of pure fat. No change in diet except the addition of 100 more calories (brought me up to 2900 daily). This prompted a cut and reevaluation. Macros are like 60% protein, rest is carbs and fat w/ IF thrown in too. I also normally do Jiu Jitsu 2-3 times a week and lift 4x a week (~15 sets per major exercise).
From what I understood, regardless of cycle length you shut down endogenous production. Is that not the case?