Perceived Exertion and Progress

Training Bodybuilding
61

[quote]vroom wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
Attitude vroom… that is your limiting factor. I never said you needed help. But, your outlook is all wrong.

LOL. Good troll job, but you lose points for contradicting yourself so blatantly.[/quote]

Oh, so now I’m a troll because I disagree with you. Wow, is this not the first time this has been stated on T-Nation… hehehe

Your outlook should have been a solution. I don’t think you like to be wrong vroom. I wouldn’t call you out if I thought you were right and just wanted to disagree. I seek the truth, just like anyone else who succeeds in their triumphs I suppose. Learn to ne more humble vroom… perfection isn’t even perfect. This was just a sample of an avalanche that could come your way though, with trainers that are knowledgable with experience on the subject.

62

[quote]vroom wrote:

Maybe the ability to continue to stress muscles and force adaptation (as well as skill and so forth) is one of the facets to advanced athleticism.

[/quote]

When your lost vroom and most of the people agree with the oposition, learn to reverse your words around to bridge the gap.

Athletes facets become advanced through adaptation by force and continuous muscle stressing ability.

63

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
Your outlook should have been a solution. I don’t think you like to be wrong vroom. I would call you out if I thought you were right and just wanted to disagree.[/quote]

Fool, there isn’t a problem, it’s a theory up for discussion. You are completely missing the whole concept here – except for the part where you state you believe what I’m proposing is total bullshit and it is all mental and learnable.

I wish you’d stop trying to apply this to me.

LOL. I’m not the one who needs to be more humble in this respect… I’ll post in a minute about the topic in general, not on our sidetrack of the whole issue.

Maybe it will help you see what I’m driving at.

64

Now, actually getting back to the topic at hand… here is an nifty article which attempts to outline the concepts of peripheral fatigue and central fatigue. I’m assuing ability to exert and fatigue are appropriately related…


A model is proposed in which the development of physical exhaustion is a relative rather than an absolute event and the sensation of fatigue is the sensory representation of the underlying neural integrative processes. Furthermore, activity is controlled as part of a pacing strategy involving active neural calculations in a “governor” region of the brain, which integrates internal sensory signals and information from the environment to produce a homoeostatically acceptable exercise intensity. The end point of the exercise bout is the controlling variable. This is an example of a complex, non-linear, dynamic system in which physiological systems interact to regulate activity before, during, and after the exercise bout.

I’ve only quoted the abstract, but the discussion of the two models of fatigue and their shortcomings is potentially useful to the discussion. Different possibly sensory mechanisms are suggested for each model.

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Go heavy fool-vroom is not conceding his fate to a higher power or saying he is a hardgainer due to reason’s beyond his control like you seem to think he has implied due to the idea he threw around about a possible genetic determinant of pain threshold. Some things are known to be gentically determined, other things environmentally. It is not really a matter of debate just a matter of accepting the facts.

For example, no matter how much somebody wants to argue that people can change themselves, the fact remains that personality is .8 genetic. Don’t make things into a matter of belief when they aren’t. If you have the pain tolerance of an ox like its possible you were born that pre-disposed to it.

66

[quote]KombatAthlete wrote:
Go heavy fool-vroom is not conceding his fate to a higher power or saying he is a hardgainer due to reason’s beyond his control like you seem to think he has implied due to the idea he threw around about a possible genetic determinant of pain threshold. Some things are known to be gentically determined, other things environmentally. It is not really a matter of debate just a matter of accepting the facts.

For example, no matter how much somebody wants to argue that people can change themselves, the fact remains that personality is .8 genetic. Don’t make things into a matter of belief when they aren’t. If you have the pain tolerance of an ox like its possible you were born that pre-disposed to it.[/quote]

I already agreed with vroom on the genetic factor. My stance is that it is a limiting factor on a scale that won’t make a dent of difference to any trainer with the right mindset. Therefore my conclusion is that the trainers with the wrong mindset regardless of good or bad genetics won’t superseed the trainers with the right minset regardless of their genetics.

Now the genetic factor for low intensity level due to feeling pain quicker than someone with a higher genetic threshold… will also make no difference because the two factors are actually non factors when it comes to a certain level of achievement. To get the elite level of achievement will require no genetic advantage but will require a learned one.

If its genetics vs enviornment… there is no factor because the factor is learned. You cannot geneticly be given the ability to push yourself harder. Motivation is not genetic and that is the B.S. I am being fed.

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"Fatigue is usually defined as a decrease in force production,1,2 or an inability to regenerate the original force3 in the presence of an increased perception of effort.4 The physiological causes of fatigue have been classified as either “peripheral” or “central” in origin. Peripheral skeletal muscle fatigue is usually defined as a decrease in the capacity of the skeletal muscle to generate force because of action potential failure, excitation-contraction coupling failure, or impairment of cross bridge cycling, in the presence of unchanged or increasing neural drive.5,6 In contrast, central fatigue has been defined as a reduction in neural drive to the muscle resulting in a decline in force production or tension development that is independent of changes in skeletal muscle contractility.4 "

The central drive factor is what is independent and what makes the difference. In other words people quit here instead of pushing furthur and before the Peripheral fatigue sets in and that is complete muscle failure. And this fatigue superseeds the former because this one is continuous even though the decline in force went down.

Am I understanding these terms correctly?

68

One of the points I’m taking from the article is…

that there appears to be a potentially complex set of calculations, involving various types of measurement or feedback, taking place… not all of which is consciously controlled.

Now, it’s only my opinion, but there seems to be room in there for genetics to set different “reserve” points, different “fatigue” sensations and different “exertion” sensations.

Also, to some degree, it might be possible to override the vote of the subconscious (or calculations), but if it is possible there are presumably “fail safe” cutoff points as well.

69

[quote]vroom wrote:
One of the points I’m taking from the article is…

Integrating these new findings, we therefore propose a new theory of how exercise intensity is regulated: the central integrative, or central governor model (fig 6). In this model, the state of physical exhaustion is considered to be a relative rather than an absolute event. We suggest that, before and continuously during exercise, the brain performs subconscious calculations of the metabolic cost required to complete a given exercise task, and then computes how this will be influenced by the prevailing environmental conditions and the current physical state. This allows the selection of an optimum pacing strategy that will allow completion of the task in the most efficient way while maintaining internal homoeostasis and a metabolic and physiological reserve capacity.

This theory is an extension of that originally proposed by Ulmer128 who defined this “resetting” of power output or speed as “teleoanticipation”. He suggested that a central “programmer”, probably working at a subconscious level, calculates the time necessary to complete an activity and include this in a calculation of the required power output to complete the task while maintaining homoeostasis in all the bodily systems.

The subconscious mental calculations that form the basis of the central integrative model would therefore act to regulate the power output during all forms of exercise as part of the controls necessary to maintain whole body homoeostasis. The conscious sensation of fatigue would therefore be one manifestation of these subconscious mental calculations and the resultant alterations in neural drive (fig 6). Alternatively, the sensations of fatigue may represent the calculated neural “effort” expended in maintaining whole body homoeostasis so that the progressive increase in these sensations during exercise indicates how close the subject is to the end of an exercise bout.

that there appears to be a potentially complex set of calculations, involving various types of measurement or feedback, taking place… not all of which is consciously controlled.

Now, it’s only my opinion, but there seems to be room in there for genetics to set different “reserve” points, different “fatigue” sensations and different “exertion” sensations.

Also, to some degree, it might be possible to override the vote of the subconscious (or calculations), but if it is possible there are presumably “fail safe” cutoff points as well.[/quote]

vroom you’re close, but did your read Waterbury’s article on the control group that got stronger by believing it rather than actually performing the exercise. This is what I have been explaining as mindset… and why I will leave the gym and then come back in when my mind is right.

I’m stressing the power of the mind and its power. you are furthur inhibiting your progress bt actually letting your mind believe you have limits.

I have tried to help you, but I have failed miserably.

You are onto something so microscopic vroom and you are actually right; I already agreed with you on a mincroscopic genetic limiting factor, but you are simply doing yourself a “paradox of progress”. You would have been better off just telling your subconscience that you are unlimited because your subconscience will automaticly register thoughts as fact no matter if true or not.

you now have to reverse the process and put yourself in the right mindset before you train again. You have overthought this like I had explained earlier and actually donr yourself more harm tham good. you already knew about the caffeine and such.

Go to the source vroom… when you have a doubt or a thought. Do you think there is a correlation between the size of Arnolds biceps and the thoughts he planted in his subconscience about them growing to the size of mountains? I do.

Now Arnolds genetics potential to unleash the mountains was only discovered through the right mindset, they would be just a few inches shorter and maybe normal by bodybuilding standards had he not used this concept. Probably still great, but no where near the soccer balls he had for biceps.

MINDSET!

SET IT~

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If your brain has not exploded, here is a good journal article talking about how caffeine may affect performance…

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/6/2167?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=fibromyalgia&searchid=1056881935561_167&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0

[quote]
Caffeine consumption improves exercise performance and increases activity of hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis and autonomic nervous system (ANS). Whether this activation of neuroendocrine function is a marker or a mediator of the actions of caffeine on exercise performance is not known.

It is intriguing to consider, however, that individual differences in exercise endurance, fatigue, and pain at baseline and in response to a variety of stresses may, in part, be mediated by activity of HPA axis and ANS.

Additional studies with pharmacological manipulations of these axes may prove useful in better understanding normal human physiology, as well as the pathophysiology, of a variety of disorders characterized by fatigue or impaired exercise performance. [/quote]

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[quote]vroom wrote:

I got one last piece of GHF for ya vroom. To prove my point I did the exercise myself 2 minutes ago. 50 REPS! That is the number of curls I say you will be able to do with a single arm dumbbell curl with something you would usually maybe get 25 out of.

i am convinced that you quit and your body doesn’t. I will prove the power of the mind with your own body doing the exercise. I use this technique for lesser reps but this will exemplify the point I think. Iusually tell myself I’m doing 10 reps with a weight I probably won’t get more than 3 or 4, but without my mindset, I’d be lucky to get 2 probably only 1.

Now you’re telling yourself tonight that your doing 50 reps with a certain weight tomorrow, pick it out right now. And tomorrow you’re doing 50 reps with that weight no matter what. Without quitting and still curling even though they are slow reps, you will still get 50 reps. Your muscles can actually do the 50 reps with your 25lb max weight.

But vroom never does this I bet. I bet vroom only does the 25. But you let your mind quit at 25. Why? Aim for 100 if you want and give me the number you actually did. Try this technique and prove me wrong.

When I wrote this that hit a nerve right? The reality nerve. You proved me right by starting this thread vroom. Its not like you started a thread on overcoming pain thresholds and strength barriers. Nope. This one was on, lets blame genetics because I am not willing to find out if effort and the way you think is actually the real issue. No, wouldn’t want to do that… that would would require EXTRA effort. Not a good idea for someone who wants to gain an edge without actually putting forth the EXTRA effort.

You’re lesson is over vroom. Come again.

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Maybe it just silly, but if the subconcious is acting on the perception of “the end”, then there should be no perceptable end.

The sesion does not end at 8:30, it ends when you fall down type of mindset. If you don’t fall down, it aint over.

Or since the subconcious responds better to posatives- “I’ll will be done when I say I’m done”.

Interestingly enough, I knew I had to leave at a quarter after eight tonight, and sure enough, at 8:15 I was exhausted.

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[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
vroom you’re close, but did your read Waterbury’s article on the control group that got stronger by believing it rather than actually performing the exercise. This is what I have been explaining as mindset… and why I will leave the gym and then come back in when my mind is right.

I’m stressing the power of the mind and its power. you are furthur inhibiting your progress bt actually letting your mind believe you have limits.

I have tried to help you, but I have failed miserably.[/quote]

Fool, you keep barking up the wrong tree. I am not in need of help. I am not arguing that the mental aspect is unimportant.

I don’t see why you keep coming back to this? This would be so much easier to discuss if you realized it was simply a topic of discussion and that we have different opinions on it.

I’m not looking for an excuse here… and yes, I’ve seen your opinion on what the “solution” is… and I think you discount the whole concept of the thread to offer that solution.

Do you get that, at all?

It may be important for you to believe you know the impact of various issues, but you are speaking out of your ass! I don’t think the variability between people has been examined in any depth – at least I haven’t seen it anywhere at this point.

You aren’t agreeing with me at all, by the way, so don’t kid yourself into thinking you are.

As per King of the Hill, what in the hell?

Sigh. Look Bobby, you need to get over this issue and either find something to back up your opinion or just shut the hell up already.

Also, with all this fucking mouthing about your fantastic abilities and so forth, you sure as hell had better be 100% natural… because if you are poppin’ roids I never want to hear about your mental fortitude again.

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[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
some bullshit[/quote]

Fuck off you trolling moron.

75

[quote]vroom wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
some bullshit

Fuck off you trolling moron.[/quote]

You lost vroom. You just proved it at the end with your ignorant comment. I won’t stoop to your lower level of intelligence and add an insult. My last sentence should cover that without actually having to say it.

I know it sucks to lose vroom. But you actually won… you gained insight off of me. I actually am dumber now trying to help you.

The sad part is… you will actually receive no benefit even from a thread where you thought you would try to help someone else with. The readers benefited by actually listening to all the oposition against you. Just remember vroom… there is always someone out there who knows more than you through experience.

A cop doesn’t have to set a foot in a classroom to tell you about crime.

Keep reading vroom… some day you just might talk yourself out of any physical exertion at all.

lol… I even crack myself up

76

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
vroom wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
some bullshit

Fuck off you trolling moron.

You lost vroom. You just proved it at the end with your ignorant comment. I won’t stoop to your lower level of intelligence and add an insult. My last sentence should cover that without actually having to say it.

I know is sucks to lose vroom. But you actually won… you gained insight off of me. I actually for dumber by trying to help you.

The sad part is… you will actually receive no benefit even from a thread where you thought you would try to help someone else with. the readers benefited by actually listening to all the oposition against you. Just remember vroom… there is always someone out there who knows more than you through experience.

A cop doesn’t have to set a foot in a classroom to tell you about crime.

Keep reading vroom… some day you just might talk yourself out of any physical exertion at all.

lol… I even crack myself up

[/quote]

Dude, you’ve spent the whole thread twisting what was an interesting topic into a personal excursion into your greatness and perfection.

What a fucking joke.

Howabout we either let the thread die or see if anyone has any opinions on the subject, because if you haven’t noticed, there’s only one person I’m pissed off at while others have also disagreed with the concept being discussed.

EDIT:[quote]
Keep reading vroom… some day you just might talk yourself out of any physical exertion at all.
[/quote]
Shoot, if you were paying any attention at all you’d see that this thread implies that people it might apply to have to find a way to work harder.

77

[quote]vroom wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
vroom wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
some bullshit

Fuck off you trolling moron.

You lost vroom. You just proved it at the end with your ignorant comment. I won’t stoop to your lower level of intelligence and add an insult. My last sentence should cover that without actually having to say it.

I know is sucks to lose vroom. But you actually won… you gained insight off of me. I actually for dumber by trying to help you.

The sad part is… you will actually receive no benefit even from a thread where you thought you would try to help someone else with. the readers benefited by actually listening to all the oposition against you. Just remember vroom… there is always someone out there who knows more than you through experience.

A cop doesn’t have to set a foot in a classroom to tell you about crime.

Keep reading vroom… some day you just might talk yourself out of any physical exertion at all.

lol… I even crack myself up

Dude, you’ve spent the whole thread twisting what was an interesting topic into a personal excursion into your greatness and perfection.

What a fucking joke.

Howabout we either let the thread die or see if anyone has any opinions on the subject, because if you haven’t noticed, there’s only one person I’m pissed off at while others have also disagreed with the concept being discussed.[/quote]

vroom I’m the only one with balls, brains, experience, attitude and confidence to take anyone in this forum on. Who else were you expecting to debate you? I will lose a topic fight. But, not often. I stand up for what I know. Not what I think. I listen in on what I don’t know. Even when you know, you don’t really know. Do you?

I have nothing more to say. Good luck buddy. It’s all good.

I’m out. See ya in the next thread war.

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[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
vroom I’m the only one with balls, brains, experience, attitude and confidence to take anyone in this forum on. Who else were you expecting to debate you? I will lose a topic fight. But, not often. I stand up for what I know. Not what I think. I listen in on what I don’t know. Even when you know, you don’t really know. Do you?
[/quote]

I’m amazed you and your ego can fit in the same damned room. Way to go insulting basically the whole site with this post.

79

Nice job wrecking the thread fellas.

Massive maturity on display here.

80

[quote]Sxio wrote:
Nice job wrecking the thread fellas.

Massive maturity on display here. [/quote]

Sigh, tell me about it. I have to admit Go Heavy got my goat but good! :wink:

Anyway, I really do think it’s a fascinating concept. If applicable it would mean that some people would be more inclined to not generate enough intensity - though they felt as if they were and were trying to do so.

Their own body, or feedback mechanisms, would be “lying” to them.