Perceived Exertion and Progress

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
So, you are saying your intensity is that high and yet you aren’t making gains? I mean that honestly. Because of so then there is definitely something amiss. Also, sorry didn’t mean to offend you.

D
[/quote]

Aw, I’m not offended. I’m pretty comfortable with my work and effort levels.

Anyway, to quote myself…

So, what I find, and I believe studies support it, is that you can lift more weight when you use reasonable amounts of caffeine or EC.

This obviously allows you to up intensity - which is quite different than simply upping volume.

42

[quote]vroom wrote:
Okay, I’ll try to illustrate the potential that this subject has by using an example I think we are all familiar with.

Bro A has low test. He’s regularly around 250 ng/dL. Bro B has high test. He’s regularly around 1250 ng/dL.

It’s no surprise, but if Bro A takes a week off from the gym he suffers a lot more muscle loss and regression than Bro B.

Unfortunately, Bro A also finds it much tougher to get and stay lean. Bro B on the other hand sits around 9% quite easily without watching his eating too closely.

This isn’t an excuse for Bro A, he’d better figure out what is going on with his body and do something about it. Maybe he can reduce stress levels. Perhaps taking Alpha Male will do the trick. Maybe just losing weight if he is carrying a lot of fat. Bro A can also get seriously nitpicky about his diet and cardio and force his body to maintain the bodyfat level he wants.

However, Bro A certainly needs to do something if he wants to improve his lot in life and it isn’t because he lacks the willpower to work hard. Tough shit for Bro A but he’s got a steeper hill to walk.

This thread is about the fact that there are other ways in which the playing field can be tilted against another, perhaps Bro C. I think there might be an issue out there that Bro C has never considered, but he does know that something is holding him back differently than Bro A or Bro B.[/quote]

It’s all relative… Bro a will have to push harder but by doing so will learn the dicipline and have the more fight in him. Bro B doesn’t have to push as hard for the same results but also may not have to ever perform at the level of Bro A and not receiving potential success patterns through willpower and determination. Therefore… leveling your argument. It’s all relative.

43

Fool, you miss or dismiss the whole concept being discussed.

There ARE inhibitory processes, whether or not we wish to simply discuss pain and discomfort (which is certainly one aspect of them) that limit our efforts in the gym.

If you would stop beating your chest for a while, or alternately suggesting that I have some deficiency (thank you for that) then maybe you’d get the underlying topic.

To go back to Arioch’s last point, where both guys work out to the point that they end up with shakey legs and can’t do another rep, the issue is that one guy may not get enough intensity while getting the same fatigue level.

That is the thing to understand. Both guys are working just as “hard”, but one guy isn’t getting the fucking job done, because of inhibitory processes which are more active.

He’s got to find a way around those inhibitory processes, so he can achieve a more intense stress, a higher muscle activation level. I seriously doubt everyone is exactly the same in this issue, because they sure as hell aren’t exactly the same in every other issue.

44

[quote]vroom wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
So, you are saying your intensity is that high and yet you aren’t making gains? I mean that honestly. Because of so then there is definitely something amiss. Also, sorry didn’t mean to offend you.

D

Aw, I’m not offended. I’m pretty comfortable with my work and effort levels.

Anyway, to quote myself…

These days I’m making both more progress and more consistent progress than I probably ever have. And yes, I know I have one hell of a long way to go, I’m not crowing about where I am.

So, sitting under my thinking tree, as I’m often accused of doing in the politics forums at least, I’m wondering if intensity is a limiting factor for some people once you get beyond beginners gains.

So, what I find, and I believe studies support it, is that you can lift more weight when you use reasonable amounts of caffeine or EC.

This obviously allows you to up intensity - which is quite different than simply upping volume.[/quote]

vroom, you can up intensity with anything really. Whatever floats your boat. I try to tap into my adrenal glands. I also lift angry. I lift at peak times or not at all. I will walk directly out of a gym if I feel any ounce of doubt that I cannot give my all that day. I will save the energy and not waste those sets. I have done this several times. I have gotten under the barbell and knew after the first set that I was never going to be able to give my all… right back out the door I go, I don’t come back in until my mind is right.

45

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
If you’re alluding to AAS then hell yes if everything else is in line nutrition, rest, intensity, and Bro low has low test and isn’t making gains it’s going to give him the edge he is missing. Has bro low tried Alpha Male yet?

D[/quote]

LOL! No, I’m not alluding to AAS at all. Different people have different test levels, that is a fact.

I think it is obvious that some folks aren’t willing to consider that the playing fields aren’t level. We aren’t all the same.

I’m trying to help some people out there, who are past the beginner stage, realize that their intensity might be something that is holding them back, it’s plausible that some have a stronger or more active inhibitory system.

46

Fool, I’m getting annoyed.

Perhaps you’d like to explain the concept behind Chad’s supramaximal hold concept with respect to muscle activitation and workout intensity?

I’m not talking about mental intensity for fuck sakes.

Other people also provide tricks to allow us to move more weight. Perhaps that recent article on “series” work. If I recall correctly Pavel or somebody had a bunch of intensification tricks also.

Are you going to dismiss those concepts as useless tools needed only by those that aren’t willing to work hard too?

47

[quote]vroom wrote:
Fool, you miss or dismiss the whole concept being discussed.

There ARE inhibitory processes, whether or not we wish to simply discuss pain and discomfort (which is certainly one aspect of them) that limit our efforts in the gym.

If you would stop beating your chest for a while, or alternately suggesting that I have some deficiency (thank you for that) then maybe you’d get the underlying topic.

To go back to Arioch’s last point, where both guys work out to the point that they end up with shakey legs and can’t do another rep, the issue is that one guy may not get enough intensity while getting the same fatigue level.

That is the thing to understand. Both guys are working just as “hard”, but one guy isn’t getting the fucking job done, because of inhibitory processes which are more active.

He’s got to find a way around those inhibitory processes, so he can achieve a more intense stress, a higher muscle activation level. I seriously doubt everyone is exactly the same in this issue, because they sure as hell aren’t exactly the same in every other issue.[/quote]

Are you suggesting that what I have stated can’t be taught or learned?

O.K. I got ya. Here ya go. How do you increase your pull-up total? By doing pull-ups right? Same with intensity level or pain threshold. You have tp PUSH IT vroom, thay don’t increase by themselves.

I am telling you the thread topic, but you are not understanding it so its not going to make any sense until you believe something like the relationship between increasing your pull-up total is the same type of relationship for increasing your intensity and pain thresholds.

You didn’t come out of the womb with the ability to have a certain pain threshold as a baby that you have now. A man can take a certain amount of pain, a baby only has so much. You have to build it up. Even if you had a geneticly determined amount of 10 lbs of pressure on your face before you start to scream and the baby next to you has 11 or 12, by the time you are both 30 years old… either one of you can have the 100lbs and the other 120lbs; depending on your life experiences(maybe ones a boxer and the other knits). Made up numbers just to illustrate a point.

48

[quote]vroom wrote:
Fool, I’m getting annoyed.

Perhaps you’d like to explain the concept behind Chad’s supramaximal hold concept with respect to muscle activitation and workout intensity?

I’m not talking about mental intensity for fuck sakes.

Other people also provide tricks to allow us to move more weight. Perhaps that recent article on “series” work. If I recall correctly Pavel or somebody had a bunch of intensification tricks also.

Are you going to dismiss those concepts as useless tools needed only by those that aren’t willing to work hard too?[/quote]

Why would I dismiss an intensification technique? I just said there are many ways to do that. You can boost your nervous system with those techniques. I’ve never used any intensity techniques that I know of. The only ones I can think of that might be what you are looking for would be repping to absolute failure and past failure with forced reps, and rest-pause sets. this style of lifting alone requires intensity but also builds it. you can start slow and build up. Maybe start with dropsets. I kinda see where you’re getting at vroom. But its going to come back in a cirle on ya.

your looking for techniques that increase intensity instead of just increasing intemsity. That’s like tying to increase your pull-up total without ever doing pull-ups. Sure, it can be done, but the best and most effective way is to just do pull-ups.

Options…(alternative inhibitory decreasers)

How to change the mindset, for more intensity and effort and less inhibitory processes? … let me get back to you on this vroom. I have never even thought about it other than just doing it.

Let me see if I can come up with anything.

49

[quote]vroom wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
If you’re alluding to AAS then hell yes if everything else is in line nutrition, rest, intensity, and Bro low has low test and isn’t making gains it’s going to give him the edge he is missing. Has bro low tried Alpha Male yet?

D

LOL! No, I’m not alluding to AAS at all. Different people have different test levels, that is a fact.

I think it is obvious that some folks aren’t willing to consider that the playing fields aren’t level. We aren’t all the same.

I’m trying to help some people out there, who are past the beginner stage, realize that their intensity might be something that is holding them back, it’s plausible that some have a stronger or more active inhibitory system.[/quote]

Well Vroom, I agree with you. Yes, everyone is different and someone like Woody Allen isn’t going to make the same gains as Stan Mcquay everything else being equal. But, as you said intensity (and if you need a Spike or what have you to help) is the key. Even Woody can make his best gains if he reaches into fifth gear and beyond what most do.

D

50

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
I am telling you the thread topic, but you are not understanding it so its not going to make any sense until you believe something like the relationship between increasing your pull-up total is the same type of relationship for increasing your intensity and pain thresholds.[/quote]

Oh for fuck sakes. I understand the concept of learning to deal with pain and discomfort.

That is NOT the fucking topic.

However, if you want to start a thread about how to be a tough guy like you who can stick forks through his tongue and not flinch, just go for it.

Then maybe in this thread we can talk about possible physiological differences between people and strategies to overcome them.

51

[quote]vroom wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
I am telling you the thread topic, but you are not understanding it so its not going to make any sense until you believe something like the relationship between increasing your pull-up total is the same type of relationship for increasing your intensity and pain thresholds.

Oh for fuck sakes. I understand the concept of learning to deal with pain and discomfort.

That is NOT the fucking topic.

However, if you want to start a thread about how to be a tough guy like you who can stick forks through his tongue and not flinch, just go for it.

Then maybe in this thread we can talk about possibly physiological differences between people and strategies to overcome them.[/quote]

The problem here vroom is you are using the “hargainers whine” argument. You actually think that a genetic difference in pain threshold or inhibitory factors is going to make the bulk of a difference. I’m trying to tell you for the upteenth time that physiological factors are minimal compared to the learned and enviornmental factors. You would have failed criminology miserably with your biological blame genetics mindset. I agree with you that genetics will account for a difference, but the single biggest factor is exponentially greater than that of genetics.

52

[quote]vroom wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
I am telling you the thread topic, but you are not understanding it so its not going to make any sense until you believe something like the relationship between increasing your pull-up total is the same type of relationship for increasing your intensity and pain thresholds.

Oh for fuck sakes. I understand the concept of learning to deal with pain and discomfort.

That is NOT the fucking topic.

However, if you want to start a thread about how to be a tough guy like you who can stick forks through his tongue and not flinch, just go for it.

Then maybe in this thread we can talk about possible physiological differences between people and strategies to overcome them.[/quote]

vroom I am tough enough to try to help you even though your attitude is far from ever accepting what you don’t want to hear.

I have not mentioned one thing about being tough until this post. You keep accusing me of being a tough guy because my mindset has been trained past the pain threshold and can lift until my muscle wont preform the function. This my biological friend can’t be born, this can only be learned. Call me what you wish, just don’t call me inexperienced in the training of decreasing inhibitory factors. I just told you how I personally did it, but your refusal to believe me leaves me unable to help you. The answers are in your thread.

53

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
Well Vroom, I agree with you. Yes, everyone is different and someone like Woody Allen isn’t going to make the same gains as Stan Mcquay everything else being equal. But, as you said intensity (and if you need a Spike or what have you to help) is the key. Even Woody can make his best gains if he reaches into fifth gear and beyond what most do.

D[/quote]

Interestingly, I’m not a big believer in limits, hardgainers, or things like that. Of course, there are actual limits, but I don’t think there are trivial ones.

If Woody has enough test to help keep catabolism at bay, there is no reason that intense efforts combined with food and rest won’t lead to ongoing growth and adaptation.

I mean, his muscles don’t really have any choice, right?

54

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
The problem here vroom is you are using the “hargainers whine” argument. You actually think that a genetic difference in pain threshold or inhibitory factors is going to make the bulk of a difference. I’m trying to tell you for the upteenth time that physiological factors are minimal compared to the learned and enviornmental factors. You would have failed criminology miserably with your biological blame genetics mindset. I agree with you that genetics will account for a difference, but the single biggest factor is exponentially greater than that of genetics.
[/quote]

And strangely, I don’t believe in the concept of a hardgainer.

Anyway, I have seen your opinion. I have understood your opinion. Telling me again that I’m wrong won’t stop me from considering the issue at hand.

You may also want to look at the percentages that the study I quoted outlined. A level of 20% is an incredibly huge factor if it is directly applicable to the topic of conversation.

So, any new ideas to propose, or would you like to assume I don’t work hard enough and that I need to learn to tolerate pain one more time?

55

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
I just told you how I personally did it, but your refusal to believe me leaves me unable to help you. The answers are in your thread.
[/quote]

Holy fuck, dude, wake up, I’m not looking for any damned help.

There is an interesting topic to be discussed, your view is noted, now kindly let us carry on the discussion.

56

[quote]vroom wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
The problem here vroom is you are using the “hargainers whine” argument. You actually think that a genetic difference in pain threshold or inhibitory factors is going to make the bulk of a difference. I’m trying to tell you for the upteenth time that physiological factors are minimal compared to the learned and enviornmental factors. You would have failed criminology miserably with your biological blame genetics mindset. I agree with you that genetics will account for a difference, but the single biggest factor is exponentially greater than that of genetics.

And strangely, I don’t believe in the concept of a hardgainer.

Anyway, I have seen your opinion. I have understood your opinion. Telling me again that I’m wrong won’t stop me from considering the issue at hand.

You may also want to look at the percentages that the study I quoted outlined. A level of 20% is an incredibly huge factor if it is directly applicable to the topic of conversation.

So, any new ideas to propose, or would you like to assume I don’t work hard enough and that I need to learn to tolerate pain one more time?[/quote]

vroom you’re comparing yourself to a very few % of people that can actually train like Arnold or even myself for that matter. I’m not even sure Srnold has a greater pain threshold than me, he just has the better physique.

You may be top 10% vroom, meaning you train harder than 90% of every other trainer in the world. but to be elite and the best of the best… you’ll have to train even harder and be in that top 1% especially if you want elite status… maybe even the top .001%

Every athlete or non athlete has a choice to make, Arnold’s quote is the choice. You may not train as hard as Ronnie Coleman, but to get a body like that you will have to go the extra mile. You may train harder than the average guy. But again, who are you compaiting yourself to?

Most people should realize the relationship between what you do to your body(training & dieting) and the shape that its in. There is a direct correlation. Even the worst geneticly gifted person in the world can make monumental gains if the learning process is there. Imagine what you could do with just average genetics.

2 factors vroom

1- The genetic factor can be overcompensated for and pass even normal genetics.
2- The inhibitory factor can be decreased dramaticly through learning and experience.

Tip… I would start learning drive young. Motivation, effort, willpower, you name it can be increased dramaticly with the right learning tools.

I’m self motivated and figured this out myself… but you could be taught motivation also to overcome these setbacks and or inhibitors; I don’t see why not.

57

[quote]vroom wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
I just told you how I personally did it, but your refusal to believe me leaves me unable to help you. The answers are in your thread.

Holy fuck, dude, wake up, I’m not looking for any damned help.

There is an interesting topic to be discussed, your view is noted, now kindly let us carry on the discussion.[/quote]

Attitude vroom… that is your limiting factor. I never said you needed help. But, your outlook is all wrong.

You’re fun to argue with. Most discussions start out with one guy in left field and the other one in right field. Both try to meet in the center and draw a conclusion. You headed straight for the dugout as soon as the ballgame started. That doesn’t make for good conversation and doesn’t help your persuasion skills, but it does make for a nice delay of game.

Good luck in your quest vroom, I’ll be in centerfield.

58

I agree. I trained for a couple of years avoiding discomfort whenever possible. In the last few years I have learned to push the limits every workout. Nowadays I don’t stop until the pain forces me too, or I can’t complete anymore full reps. It is in the last few years that I have truly made progress.

You need to bust your arse to grow.

59

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
Attitude vroom… that is your limiting factor. I never said you needed help. But, your outlook is all wrong.
[/quote]

LOL. Good troll job, but you lose points for contradicting yourself so blatantly.

60

I’ve actually been thinking about something like this a lot lately.

During wrestling practices, we had to do multiple sprints that were supposed to be “all out”. I’m not trying to sound like a pussy here, but I would never go “all out”, even though I would always beat everybody, usually pretty handily.

Keep in mind that I was a very competitive runner at the time too, doing both Cross Country and Track very well. There were other “runners” on the wrestling team too, but they were simply recreational.

The point I am trying to make here is that someone who is very inexperienced in a discipline has no idea of what they are capable of. I knew how to run hard, and how to push myself when shit hit the fan. You need to in order to race competitively. Everybody else on my team knew how to run hard, but had no idea how fast they could actually go. Thus, they could do multiple sprints day in and day out without any hugely negative consequences, while if I truely sprinted all the time I would end of injured or totally exhausted.

The less you have done of something, the more “hard work” you can stand to do of it. As you progress, you realize what “hard work” truely is and adjust your training accordingly. Experienced trainees don’t need to necesscarily train as often, but they need to train harder when they do train. Beginners just need to discover what the pain really is before they can call themselves experienced.