Pendlay on Simmons

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
41

I have somethings I would like to say, first will be relating to accomodating resistance.

Bands: They are not westside. They are a tool of westside

*purpose of bands

It is to follow the strength curve of people, or to accentuate their strength curve. It is useful for DE work to stop deceleration at the mid/top, and helps power production throughout the lift. It can also help train top end weaknesses. For example I NEVER miss in any of the big three in the bottom third of the lift. The lowest I ever fail is top two thirds.

*benefits of bands

1.It is good for becoming used to heavier weight (golgi tendon), bands actually gave me a 25 pound squat PR because my body thought I was going to get injured. 2. Allows your body to support heavier weight. 3. It has a major stability proponent. 4. It strengths your eccentric strength because it causes the bar to be pulled down faster than the 9.8 m/s^2 that gravity does because of the bands also effecting the bar. (this I am not 100% sure on, someone with a stronger knowledge in physics should verify this) 5. It lets you strengthen the top end while keeping the same/similar groove of the lift. 6. It helps to give your joints a break from the bottom range 7. reverse bands are amazing for overload work, and a major confidence builder (read the above to know why)

Westside: It is a training method that is built on an individual’s needs. The ME work is carefully picked for the individual by the individual, the Supplemental work is for your weaknesses, and to supplement your ME/DE work. Examples would be good mornings, close grip bench, overhead pressing, SLDLs and similar exercises.

Repetition effort work is to build muscle in important places, (rear delts, lower back, abs, lats, traps, arms, ect) and in weak/small muscle groups that are neglected.

*benefits

Increased hypertrophy, lowered injury risk, and lowered chance of stagnation. It also allows for weaknesses to be fixed while simultaneously training your competition lifts, and building your base.

I could write for hours on this, but I’ll stop here.

42

I know very very little about how Louie actually coaches. Here’s what I do know: lots of guys go into westside, and get stronger. Guys leave also westside, and get stronger. Guys never go to westside, and still get stronger. There is no one true way to train.

And pendlay’s comment is fucking stupid. Who even cares what he has to say about powerlifting? He’s an Oly coach!

43

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
For the record, Louie Simmons has also a trained sprinters and is a consultant with several NFL teams[/quote]

think he trained butch Reynolds when he broke the 400m WR. Louie has been doing his thing for a very long time. Long before the internet made Westside famous.

Remember Ryan Whiting (US’s top shot putter) about a decade ago saying he used the Westside template

44

on chains not being good for raw lifters, Sheiko’s guys use them …for bench and squat

45

[quote]Paul33 wrote:

i would say now there is probably more in raw, the vast majority of lifters are raw. back when westside started raw didnt exist.

[/quote]

you do realise of course that Louie has been box squatting since around 1972-1974, and the most famous box squatter George Frenn (who inspired Louie) was by todays standards raw

46

[quote]Terry Gibbs wrote:
on chains not being good for raw lifters, Sheiko’s guys use them …for bench and squat[/quote]

I do use chains on occasion as well, maybe I made to much of a blanket statement about it. Only use about 10% tops on DE and usually in my Intensification phase. Also use it at times for ME in the 30-40% (maybe even more to really force myself to explode the weight up.) Was just overemphasizing the lack of need for them in a raw conjugate program. They are a tool that can be used, but need to be used appropriately.

47

from what Sheiko said and his photos the chains were relatively light, maybe 10% … so similar

48

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“If powerlifters had to squat medium stance ATG, could not bench with ultrawide grips, and could not use equipment, Simmons would not be a good powerlifting coach.”

thoughts?[/quote]

I think they are absurd statements. That’s like saying if football players had to hit curve balls then Bill Belichick wouldn’t be a good football coach. Not only is it a false statement, it’s a stupid one.

I don’t know how fast I can run a 40 yard dash. Does that also make me a bad powerlifter? Of course not – the powerlifts decide whether or not I’m a bad powerlifter.

In the sport of powerlifting, few if any are more accomplished than Louie Simmons. You can complain about the gear, the drugs, whatever you want – the strongest lifters always seem to come from his gym. He has worked with pro-MMA fighters, several pro football teams, Division 1 football teams, police/military organizations, track & field athletes, crossfitters just to name a few. You can be skeptical about his methods, but to say that he wouldn’t be able to coach a high level raw lifter is beyond absurd and quite honestly very ignorant.

For what it’s worth: when my old training partner left West Side he could bench 500 (raw) with a close grip for 6 reps and 560 for 1. He has always squatted with a close stance and squatted 804 in an old Inzer Z-suit and knee wraps in the early 90s. I watched him do a 650+ lb suspended chain good morning and a 655 safety squat bar box squat to a 10" box – all with only a belt.

49

[quote]NorthStrong wrote:
Simmons knows how to get people good at multi-ply lifting, and he does that because that is what he is interested in. He’s trained athletes with good success as well (football, mma, etc). I am quite certain he would be a good coach for some raw guys using the conjugate method but I am also quite certain he would switch a lot of things in it, as he isn’t an idiot.

However, he has never coached any decent weightlifters. Bands on snatches and cleans isn’t how to do it. Pendlay’s statement was kind of odd, I thought. I agree with the person who said it was akin to birds being able to fly due to hollow bones etc.

I’m honestly surprised that these weird pseudo-debate things even happen. [/quote]

I almost think it might be something like when political talk show pundits bash another one. They feed off of the banter and it makes even more of a name for both of them.

50

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“If powerlifters had to squat medium stance ATG, could not bench with ultrawide grips, and could not use equipment, Simmons would not be a good powerlifting coach.”

thoughts?[/quote]

Just finished my workout, and upon looking this quote up, it is not even made by Pendlay. It is something Pendlay responds to by saying this:

I think a lot of people start to go wrong when they get outside their area of specialty. Louie, while a good guy and a smart guy IMO, assumes a little too much when he starts talking about how what works for him in Powerlifting would work in weightlifting. Football coaches often assume that being good football coaches makes them good strength coaches. And weightlifting coaches are guilty also. From us, I think there is too much assumption that we know more than we do about how to be a strength coach for something like football or other mainstream sport.

Louie just stands out because what he says tends to be reported on more than most people, and he is fairly brash about how he says it. I do disagree with him on many points like the ones posted, but I still like the guy.

pk0ad did point this out earlier, just not stating why it was taken out of context.

51

[quote]DSSG wrote:
I have somethings I would like to say, first will be relating to accomodating resistance.

Bands: They are not westside. They are a tool of westside

*purpose of bands

It is to follow the strength curve of people, or to accentuate their strength curve. It is useful for DE work to stop deceleration at the mid/top, and helps power production throughout the lift. It can also help train top end weaknesses. For example I NEVER miss in any of the big three in the bottom third of the lift. The lowest I ever fail is top two thirds.

*benefits of bands

1.It is good for becoming used to heavier weight (golgi tendon), bands actually gave me a 25 pound squat PR because my body thought I was going to get injured. 2. Allows your body to support heavier weight. 3. It has a major stability proponent. 4. It strengths your eccentric strength because it causes the bar to be pulled down faster than the 9.8 m/s^2 that gravity does because of the bands also effecting the bar. (this I am not 100% sure on, someone with a stronger knowledge in physics should verify this) 5. It lets you strengthen the top end while keeping the same/similar groove of the lift. 6. It helps to give your joints a break from the bottom range 7. reverse bands are amazing for overload work, and a major confidence builder (read the above to know why)

Westside: It is a training method that is built on an individual’s needs. The ME work is carefully picked for the individual by the individual, the Supplemental work is for your weaknesses, and to supplement your ME/DE work. Examples would be good mornings, close grip bench, overhead pressing, SLDLs and similar exercises.

Repetition effort work is to build muscle in important places, (rear delts, lower back, abs, lats, traps, arms, ect) and in weak/small muscle groups that are neglected.

*benefits

Increased hypertrophy, lowered injury risk, and lowered chance of stagnation. It also allows for weaknesses to be fixed while simultaneously training your competition lifts, and building your base.

I could write for hours on this, but I’ll stop here. [/quote]

This. I believe that the conjugate method works for any raw lifters, you just have to find what exercises work for you. Louie uses ‘rocks in the parking lot’ as his example. For raw lifters, you don’t have to use bands and chains, board presses etc. Just find what works for you and use it.
I think the cube method is brilliant for this.

52

[quote]NorthStrong wrote:
Simmons knows how to get people good at multi-ply lifting, and he does that because that is what he is interested in. He’s trained athletes with good success as well (football, mma, etc). I am quite certain he would be a good coach for some raw guys using the conjugate method but I am also quite certain he would switch a lot of things in it, as he isn’t an idiot.

However, he has never coached any decent weightlifters. Bands on snatches and cleans isn’t how to do it. Pendlay’s statement was kind of odd, I thought. I agree with the person who said it was akin to birds being able to fly due to hollow bones etc.

I’m honestly surprised that these weird pseudo-debate things even happen. [/quote]
No north don’t get sucked into tnation. Don’t do it

53

[quote]frankjl wrote:

[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“If powerlifters had to squat medium stance ATG, could not bench with ultrawide grips, and could not use equipment, Simmons would not be a good powerlifting coach.”

thoughts?[/quote]

I think they are absurd statements. That’s like saying if football players had to hit curve balls then Bill Belichick wouldn’t be a good football coach. Not only is it a false statement, it’s a stupid one.

I don’t know how fast I can run a 40 yard dash. Does that also make me a bad powerlifter? Of course not – the powerlifts decide whether or not I’m a bad powerlifter.

In the sport of powerlifting, few if any are more accomplished than Louie Simmons. You can complain about the gear, the drugs, whatever you want – the strongest lifters always seem to come from his gym. He has worked with pro-MMA fighters, several pro football teams, Division 1 football teams, police/military organizations, track & field athletes, crossfitters just to name a few. You can be skeptical about his methods, but to say that he wouldn’t be able to coach a high level raw lifter is beyond absurd and quite honestly very ignorant.
[/quote]

End debate.

There’s no question a lot of coaches are guilty of convoluting things outside of their expertise, and there’s no question Louie, Poliquin does it, even Pendlay and others can do it. But that’s life. And it’s a fact that Louie has worked with a ton of guys outside of geared powerlifting and done really fuckin good for them there. Louie, while obviously guilty of being brash and also stepping outside his expertise on olympic lifting and chains, can and does coach really damn good lifters and athletes outside geared powerlifting. And he gets them better and well conditioned. Whether or not they win on game day doesn’t reflect his achievements with them.

For the person that said nobody uses the conjugate method besides geared powerlifters–you should probably read up on the conjugate method. As a matter of fact Louie took the conjugate method from olympic weightlifters and added his own twists, changes, and evolutions to what he saw in Zatsiorsky and others…for powerlifting.

But it would be incorrect to say the conjugate method is not used by athletes the world over. Just because they don’t term things the same and don’t use bands or chains or box squats (none of which are fundamental to Westside style training anyways, even though they are all often used) doesn’t mean they don’t use the conjugate method of periodization and organization.

Conjugate methodology is a manner of organization not a list of equipment or a 4 day template or a squat suit or a damn set of bands.

54

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
For DE work, the accommodating resistance is there so you move with maximal force throughout the whole lift. You have to slow down towards the top of the movement without it instead of accelerating the entire way through. [/quote]

You don’t need accomadting resistance for dynamic effort to be effective. You can make sure you are accelerating by actually attempting to jump with the weight in your hands or on you back but not leaving the floor. Benches you press with the intent to have the bar leave your hands but not actually have it leave your hands.

55

the argument against bands for raw lifters often has people mention joint issues… but i find that DE work for bench as was just described aggravates my elbows more than when using light band resistance (~10-15%) for DE

56

DE work with bands has never hindered my joints. Sometimes it leaves me feeling a little more sore than straight BB work (especially if I haven’t used bands for awhile). But ultimately, the bands leave me feeling stronger and more explosive than ever. Don’t underestimate the body’s ability to adapt to new stimuli.

Bands provide an accelerated eccentrics that can’t be matched by straight BB weight, or even BB /w chains. The faster the eccentric, the greater the potential for an explosive concentric. Bands may mess with the regular motor patterns and BB path, and perhaps they are not that useful for olympic lifters, but there’s no denying the DE benefit provided to a PL by bands.

Honestly, for both the geared and raw lifter, I believe one of Louie’s greatest contributions has been recognizing that for a PL to be at his best, he needs to move the BB as quickly and explosively as possible. Adding bands to my speed pulls added more than 10% to my DL within a month, and I had a similar gain for my BP. Chains are nice, but they just don’t provide the same benefit that bands do, and straight BB weight isn’t close.

57

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
But it would be incorrect to say the conjugate method is not used by athletes the world over. Just because they don’t term things the same and don’t use bands or chains or box squats (none of which are fundamental to Westside style training anyways, even though they are all often used) doesn’t mean they don’t use the conjugate method of periodization and organization.

Conjugate methodology is a manner of organization not a list of equipment or a 4 day template or a squat suit or a damn set of bands.[/quote]

I find it peculiar when people say that the “Westside” training approach is NOT really about bands/chains/box squats/frequent ME exercise rotations. I think that is bullshit backpedalling. Of course it is. Why? Because there is NOTHING LEFT after you take all these things from “Westside” that hasn’t been done by almost every serious lifter since the dawn of strength training. “Speed” training, picking assistance exercises to work on (muscular) weaknesses, going to 90%+/PRs every week, “conjugate” training, etc. all been done. “Westside”/Loui is ALL about bands/chains/box squats/training deadlift infrequently/frequent ME exercise rotations. If people believe that those things suck, say, for raw lifters, then it is fair to say that they think Westside/Loui sucks.

58

i’ve done 8x2 or 3 reps on my own… but I never conciously did it with 50-60% 1RM for maximum speed. The classification of workouts of ME, RE, and DE work is VERY MUCH what most people think of Westside bringing to powerlifting training… that’s why DeFranco’s program is WESTSIDE for skinny bastards, because of the classification of the purpose of your workout rather than what tools you use to achieve your goal.

59

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
But it would be incorrect to say the conjugate method is not used by athletes the world over. Just because they don’t term things the same and don’t use bands or chains or box squats (none of which are fundamental to Westside style training anyways, even though they are all often used) doesn’t mean they don’t use the conjugate method of periodization and organization.

Conjugate methodology is a manner of organization not a list of equipment or a 4 day template or a squat suit or a damn set of bands.[/quote]

I find it peculiar when people say that the “Westside” training approach is NOT really about bands/chains/box squats/frequent ME exercise rotations. I think that is bullshit backpedalling. Of course it is. Why? Because there is NOTHING LEFT after you take all these things from “Westside” that hasn’t been done by almost every serious lifter since the dawn of strength training. “Speed” training, picking assistance exercises to work on (muscular) weaknesses, going to 90%+/PRs every week, “conjugate” training, etc. all been done. “Westside”/Loui is ALL about bands/chains/box squats/training deadlift infrequently/frequent ME exercise rotations. If people believe that those things suck, say, for raw lifters, then it is fair to say that they think Westside/Loui sucks.[/quote]

I’ll ignore the rest of this nonsensical garbage. But would like to point out that Louie and the guys at Westside deadlift a lot more often than they used to. Louie notes in the squat and DL manual that they are now pulling much more often, and it’s basically a 1:1:1 split on ME day now between squats, GMs and DLs, with speed pulls on DE day most weeks as well.

60

Louie built a system that is successful at accomplishing a specific goal under specific conditions. If the underlying conditions were different there is no reason to believe he wouldn’t have employed the same logic and analysis to build a system that was different, but just as successful.