For DE work, the accommodating resistance is there so you move with maximal force throughout the whole lift. You have to slow down towards the top of the movement without it instead of accelerating the entire way through.
For the record, Louie Simmons has also a trained sprinters and is a consultant with several NFL teams
[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:
[quote]DonDooley wrote:
[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]Paul33 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“If powerlifters had to squat medium stance ATG, could not bench with ultrawide grips, and could not use equipment, Simmons would not be a good powerlifting coach.”
thoughts?[/quote]
Kind of a dumb statement he made imo.
“If birds didn’t have feathers or hollow bones, they wouldn’t be very good at flying.”
Louie’s methods are primarily designed for geared lifters to hit the biggest powerlifting total possible. Nothing else.[/quote]
he was probably referring to when his methods are attempted to be used outside of geared lifting, ie raw . also have you seen him trying to use bands on olympics lifters?[/quote]
See that’s where I agree that Louie goes a bit off the wagon trail. I would never say he’s a bad powerlifting coach (geared lifting at least), but all the bands and box squats and shit for athletes and weightlifters and stuff just doesn’t pan out.[/quote]
This type of comment which I see often just makes me shake my head. For the most parts bands and chains are used to accommodate resistance, just as using single and multiply gear does. Westside style training can be done without any accommodating resistance and work for the raw lifter.
You pick ME exercises that will help your big three, you pick supplemental for the same and your RE efforts emphasize (from most important to least which are different for raw and geared lifters) those more isolated muscles groups you need to work on. Dynamic days can be done without any accommodating resistance at all, the percentages just have to be altered upwards to the point where you are working on raw speed work, not geared speed work.
Westside is not bands and chains. It is what they use to simulate gear when training. Westside is selected movements on ME days, DE days to work on form and force production, and RE exercises to complement any lagging muscle groups.[/quote]
I agree with the majority of your post, but I believe the accomodating resistance is to overload the top portions of the lift, where geared lifters are weakest.[/quote]
That is exactly what I was saying!
[/quote]
Sorry man, I guess I got confused by the whole “use [them] to simulate gear” thing. They don’t simulate gear for the most part in my mind (except for reverse bands maybe), they just overload the portions of the lift where gear doesn’t help, but I see that’s what you meant.
Don’t take the quote out of context.
[quote]DonDooley wrote:
[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:
[quote]DonDooley wrote:
[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]Paul33 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“If powerlifters had to squat medium stance ATG, could not bench with ultrawide grips, and could not use equipment, Simmons would not be a good powerlifting coach.”
thoughts?[/quote]
Kind of a dumb statement he made imo.
“If birds didn’t have feathers or hollow bones, they wouldn’t be very good at flying.”
Louie’s methods are primarily designed for geared lifters to hit the biggest powerlifting total possible. Nothing else.[/quote]
he was probably referring to when his methods are attempted to be used outside of geared lifting, ie raw . also have you seen him trying to use bands on olympics lifters?[/quote]
See that’s where I agree that Louie goes a bit off the wagon trail. I would never say he’s a bad powerlifting coach (geared lifting at least), but all the bands and box squats and shit for athletes and weightlifters and stuff just doesn’t pan out.[/quote]
This type of comment which I see often just makes me shake my head. For the most parts bands and chains are used to accommodate resistance, just as using single and multiply gear does. Westside style training can be done without any accommodating resistance and work for the raw lifter.
You pick ME exercises that will help your big three, you pick supplemental for the same and your RE efforts emphasize (from most important to least which are different for raw and geared lifters) those more isolated muscles groups you need to work on. Dynamic days can be done without any accommodating resistance at all, the percentages just have to be altered upwards to the point where you are working on raw speed work, not geared speed work.
Westside is not bands and chains. It is what they use to simulate gear when training. Westside is selected movements on ME days, DE days to work on form and force production, and RE exercises to complement any lagging muscle groups.[/quote]
I agree with the majority of your post, but I believe the accomodating resistance is to overload the top portions of the lift, where geared lifters are weakest.[/quote]
That is exactly what I was saying!
[/quote]
Sorry man, I guess I got confused by the whole “use [them] to simulate gear” thing. They don’t simulate gear for the most part in my mind (except for reverse bands maybe), they just overload the portions of the lift where gear doesn’t help, but I see that’s what you meant.[/quote]
Maybe I used it in too broad of definition, but the bands and chains do try to replicate the strength curve when it comes to geared lifting.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
For DE work, the accommodating resistance is there so you move with maximal force throughout the whole lift. You have to slow down towards the top of the movement without it instead of accelerating the entire way through. [/quote]
Yes, it is there to overcome the Golgi reflex, but as a raw lifter looking to save their joints for the long run, do we want to do this if we are not geared lifters? The Golgi reflex is there to save our joints, it must be overcome for geared lifting in order to succeed, not so much in raw.
[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]Paul33 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]Paul33 wrote:
“If powerlifters had to squat medium stance ATG, could not bench with ultrawide grips, and could not use equipment, Simmons would not be a good powerlifting coach.”
thoughts?[/quote]
Kind of a dumb statement he made imo.
“If birds didn’t have feathers or hollow bones, they wouldn’t be very good at flying.”
Louie’s methods are primarily designed for geared lifters to hit the biggest powerlifting total possible. Nothing else.[/quote]
he was probably referring to when his methods are attempted to be used outside of geared lifting, ie raw . also have you seen him trying to use bands on olympics lifters?[/quote]
See that’s where I agree that Louie goes a bit off the wagon trail. I would never say he’s a bad powerlifting coach (geared lifting at least), but all the bands and box squats and shit for athletes and weightlifters and stuff just doesn’t pan out.[/quote]
This type of comment which I see often just makes me shake my head. For the most parts bands and chains are used to accommodate resistance, just as using single and multiply gear does. Westside style training can be done without any accommodating resistance and work for the raw lifter.
You pick ME exercises that will help your big three, you pick supplemental for the same and your RE efforts emphasize (from most important to least which are different for raw and geared lifters) those more isolated muscles groups you need to work on. Dynamic days can be done without any accommodating resistance at all, the percentages just have to be altered upwards to the point where you are working on raw speed work, not geared speed work.
Westside is not bands and chains. It is what they use to simulate gear when training. Westside is selected movements on ME days, DE days to work on form and force production, and RE exercises to complement any lagging muscle groups.[/quote]
Yes I understand. Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that Westside is just bands and box squats. Those are not actually Louie’s principles, they’re just two training tools like you said. All I meant is that I see all kinds of quotes from Louie about how he can illicit crazy progress for sprinters or jumpers or throwers or raw lifters or weightlifters (oly lifters) by using his methods, and I just haven’t really seen the results from this.
For example if you took a top level Russian Olympic lifter and gave him to Louie, I do not believe Louie’s methods would help him. None of the tip top raw lifters train Westside, and in fact multiple ones of them formerly trained at Westside and claim to have made their best raw strength gains after moving away from that method. World record raw lifts are not made at Westside. World record geared lifts are.
So that’s where my mentality comes from. I think Louie is a brilliant coach, I just don’t see his method as being as adaptable or optimal for other ventures beyond geared powerlifting like he does.
Trying to slow the bar down can begin as soon as the middle of the lift. So I would say it might depend whether or not it matters as a raw lifter. And some raw lifters will lose it towards the beginning of the lockout. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to mix it up with bands or chains.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]halcj wrote:
My conclusion so far is that he is simply not that knowledgeable or intelligent as a coach. His methods work for multi-ply lifting; this is mainly because he has tried different things out on a large group of lifters over a long period of time, keeping the methods that seem to produce records. He has not found a brilliant method in my opinion, just one that is effective alongside strong motivation and confidence in sticking to the program, plus the ability to train around injury with lift variations.
I would listen to some of his advice for powerlifting, but he should shut up when it comes to anything else (at least for now). None of this means that I don’t respect his dedication to the sport, however. He is, after all, one of the most famous faces in powerlifting - this is not a coincidence.[/quote]
I’m curious if you’ve actually been coached by Louie, or are basing this off of what you have read/heard.[/quote]
Of course not, what I say is based on what I’ve read; I do not claim to know more than that.
Maybe it came out badly, but my point was that his coaching style seems to be based on experience in a specific area, rather than ‘intelligence’ in the sense of theory and design. I believe his methods fall down when applied to other areas for this reason. Try not to take quotes out of context, even if they do appear to be absolute - I meant this to be explained afterwards, and apologise if it was a little rude.
As I said, I still respect Louie and his experience. Again, I have not been trained by him, nor have I closed my mind to any future learning of his training and coaching which might change my opinion.
Bear in mind that Louie has brought this debate on himself by claiming that his ideas are applicable to weightlifting and other sports. If he were more open to methods other than his own, his circle of followers might seem less like a cult and more like a centre of knowledge, but he still criticises all other forms of training regularly in writing and on video. Perhaps he likes being controversial too much?
1 Like
its probably to bring publicity.
[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:
[quote]officerskinny wrote:
Since following this site in 1999 this chat is by far the most idiotic debate I have ever seen on this site. Including all the political and religious back and forth bs this chat beats all. [/quote]
You get this argument because Louie goes for the segment where he can make money off of it, multiply. There isn’t a whole lot of money coming in from elsewhere[/quote]
Is there much money even in multiply?
Not really surprised Pendlay is stirring Simmons given the stuff Simmons has said about American olympic lifting training.
Calling someone like Louie “brilliant” and a “genius” is really trivializing those concepts.
1 Like
[quote]banco wrote:
[quote]BacktotheBar wrote:
[quote]officerskinny wrote:
Since following this site in 1999 this chat is by far the most idiotic debate I have ever seen on this site. Including all the political and religious back and forth bs this chat beats all. [/quote]
You get this argument because Louie goes for the segment where he can make money off of it, multiply. There isn’t a whole lot of money coming in from elsewhere[/quote]
Is there much money even in multiply?
Not really surprised Pendlay is stirring Simmons given the stuff Simmons has said about American olympic lifting training. [/quote]
i would say now there is probably more in raw, the vast majority of lifters are raw. back when westside started raw didnt exist.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Calling someone like Louie “brilliant” and a “genius” is really trivializing those concepts.[/quote]
whats that thing about repeating a lie often enough?ha. no other sport trains in any way similar to conjugate, and the only advances that have been made in powerlifting until recently were through gear. now people seem to be getting smart again
Calling him a bad coach is unfair, but he’s definitely one dimensional. Also, I’ve yet to see any raw powerlifter progress optimally, or much at all, “training Westside”. Also, his claims about sprinters and athletes are outright bullshit, and box squats are overrated for athletes.
I wonder if Pendlay’s comments were or should be aimed at JL Holdsworth for his recent article on the US sucking at olympic lifts? Pendlay wrote a long refuting reply on JL’s article comments section over at efs.
On a side note, I love all the “what if” comments in here. Fact is, many people both geared and raw have had success with all kinds of training programs. Our goal as lifters is to find the one that works for us, at our particular point in time, and exploit it maximally and to extract all that is relevant to our goals. For example, The metal militia style ( Sebastian Burns) of benching is totally set up for geared lifters yet training that way did wonders for my raw bench. I’ve also had much success on “West-side” and now 5-3-1. Each has suited me for my goals at the time. To say that it doesn’t work or is irrelevant to a particular demographic only shoews ones complete lack of understanding for training as a process. I’ll go as far as to dsaying that most on this forum are 20 somethings… mostr of them probably know dick about training “optimally”. I put myslef in this category as I’ve been trying shit for 25 years. I still learn new things and am growing as a lifter… Point is don’t dismiss shit just because “so and so” says something. / rant
1 Like
reminds me of Poliquin
both seem like great coaches, but talk very very big and people get offended that way
it helps them I’m sure
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
I wonder if Pendlay’s comments were or should be aimed at JL Holdsworth for his recent article on the US sucking at olympic lifts? Pendlay wrote a long refuting reply on JL’s article comments section over at efs.
[/quote]
Simmons has written very similar things to Holdsworth about OL.
Simmons knows how to get people good at multi-ply lifting, and he does that because that is what he is interested in. He’s trained athletes with good success as well (football, mma, etc). I am quite certain he would be a good coach for some raw guys using the conjugate method but I am also quite certain he would switch a lot of things in it, as he isn’t an idiot.
However, he has never coached any decent weightlifters. Bands on snatches and cleans isn’t how to do it. Pendlay’s statement was kind of odd, I thought. I agree with the person who said it was akin to birds being able to fly due to hollow bones etc.
I’m honestly surprised that these weird pseudo-debate things even happen.