PCT Outlined By Anthony Roberts

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:

You didn’t use a SERM with (concurrently) your HCG (which prevents it from inhibiting your HPTA), you didn’t use a Type-I AI (you used a Type-II), and you staggered them instead of using them all at once. Also, you used clomid, which has the effect of reducing your body’s response to LHRH, which you even inhibited by taking HCG without nolvadex!

The pct you did was horrible, and didn’t resemble mine at all. I agree, however, that the pct you did - in fact sucked.
[/quote]

Novadex is an anti estrogen, competing at the receptor cites with excess estrogen.

Clomid stimulates the release of more gonadtrophin from the pituitary gland to get a higher level of LH and FSH.

HCG is almost the same amino acid structure as LH, it just replaces this and doesn?t stimulate your body to produce more LH, setting you up for a second crash. HCG also can cause permanent gonad damage and damage to the Leydig cells.

Why would using clomid and HCG at the same time be beneficial if they are in competition with each other?

Clomid regenerates and HCG imitates… Nova competes with e at receptor sites?

Is the answer always more is better?

This is one of the better posts that has been on T-Nation in quite a while.

I’d like to thank both of you guys for posting and sharing your thoughts with all of us. Everyone should save this and read it about a thousand times, cause there is some pretty darn good info here.

Monopoly

[quote]Viking69 wrote:

Novadex is an anti estrogen, competing at the receptor cites with excess estrogen.

Clomid stimulates the release of more gonadtrophin from the pituitary gland to get a higher level of LH and FSH.

HCG is almost the same amino acid structure as LH, it just replaces this and doesn?t stimulate your body to produce more LH, setting you up for a second crash. HCG also can cause permanent gonad damage and damage to the Leydig cells.

Why would using clomid and HCG at the same time be beneficial if they are in competition with each other?

Clomid regenerates and HCG imitates… Nova competes with e at receptor sites?

Is the answer always more is better?
[/quote]

Check your PMs.

You need to read my PCT article, which has 37 different references…it answers all of the questions you have posed here…

In reference to the PCT you posted, Anthony, when would you start it in relation to your last injection…of say an enanthate ester?

Also where can I find th article? I did a search but didn’t seem to come up with it.

[quote]Thai Fighter wrote:
In reference to the PCT you posted, Anthony, when would you start it in relation to your last injection…of say an enanthate ester?

Also where can I find th article? I did a search but didn’t seem to come up with it.[/quote]

Google my name and PCT…I’d start around a week after my last shot.

Thanks for the fast reply.

Mr. Roberts and P-22…
I must admit I’m brand new to this game.
All I’ve done before are prohormones and never any PCT afterwards. I’ve noticed though that I have a hard time keeping my gains afterwards and am pre-disposed to gaining a lot of fat (the likely culprit being me used to eating excess calories).
I’m considering a 6 week run on 1-ad at 300mg/day and was considering some form of PCT afterwards; likely nolvadex. I’ll be honest; after hearing the experience of others I’d rather not have to flirt with HCG. Clomid is also a viable option.
I’d like to hear your opinions on

  1. Is PCT even warranted for this?
  2. What would you reccomend?

P.S. I’m somewhat knowledgeable on endocrinology (I’ve taken Human A&P, exercise physiology, biochem, and am currently taking exercise endocrinology) based on courses I’ve taken and A LOT of reading on this site and others.

P.S. I did read Anthony’s PCT outline on the other site.

Here’s a suggestion. SO far I’ve gotten an idea (very detailed idea of why Anthony Roberts feels his pct works). On the other hand I’ve talked to P-22 numerous times and I udnertand the logic behind his PCT. Also on a side note, I’m not trying to make waves but I can vouche for P-22 and say that he did indeed run the pct he outlined and we’ve discussed this several times.So would it be possible for Mr. Roberts to explain why P-22’s pct protocol is no good? BTW P-22, I know you dont’ get paid to do what Anthonyt Roberts does but you kinda stepped up to plate bro, if possible please try to find the time to defend your position. LOL, like I even had to ask.

Let the debate continue.

[quote]WideGuy wrote:
Here’s a suggestion. SO far I’ve gotten an idea (very detailed idea of why Anthony Roberts feels his pct works). On the other hand I’ve talked to P-22 numerous times and I udnertand the logic behind his PCT. Also on a side note, I’m not trying to make waves but I can vouche for P-22 and say that he did indeed run the pct he outlined and we’ve discussed this several times.So would it be possible for Mr. Roberts to explain why P-22’s pct protocol is no good? BTW P-22, I know you dont’ get paid to do what Anthonyt Roberts does but you kinda stepped up to plate bro, if possible please try to find the time to defend your position. LOL, like I even had to ask.

Let the debate continue. [/quote]

His protocol is based on tapering. Tapering, with regards to HPTA suppressive compounds does not work. A mere 100mgs of testosterone (or deca, or whatever) will keep you 100% suppressed. So here’s what tapering does:

200mgs/week = 100% suppressed
150mgs/week = 100% suppressed
100mgs/week = 100% suppressed
50mgs/week = 100% suppressed (probable)

(I’ve already provided studies confirming this on other threads)

So what did the tapering do? Nothing…you didn’t even start recovering at all until you ceased taking the injectable steroid(s). Why bother with that?

As for the PCT protocol outlined above, it was more like “I tried this and it didn’t work, so I tried this other thing…then another”…

Thats not really even a protocol.

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
50mgs/week = 100% suppressed (probable)

[/quote]

Actually I don’t need to produce any studies because the study Anthony produced proved my point. If he had any training at interpreting results from research he wouldn’t have posted this one in the first place as it doesn’t do his argument any good.

The study actually states that all subjects recovered their natural test production following the study, and they didn’t use Anthony’s protocol, or hcg, or any other medical intervention, as you see, if these interventions were needed the study would have been deemed unethical in the first place and wouldn’t have been allowed to proceed. -Thats right people! if you didn’t know it all studies of human test subjects are evaluated by an ethics committee before proceeding!

The study quite clearly does not indicate that the suppression continues beneath the 50mg per week mark, and I don’t care what study anthony want to produce that studied the use of nandrolone decanoate, as this drug does not apply to the argument.

Secondly Anthony hasn’t addressed the fact that tapering is conventional and established medical-pharmacological practice for receptor mediated drugs, on cessation of long-term therapy.

The reason he hasn’t addressed this, is that he apparently lacks any formal medical or pharmacological training/ experience.

If he had any he would now be under disiplinary action from his professional regulatory body for publishing harmfull information that wasn’t peer-reviewed.

Now Anthony can attack me all he likes, but he doesn’t spend 8-10 hours a day pounding the wards like I do. I definitely don’t have the time after that to devote to researching what is in the medical community ‘common knowledge and standard practice’.

Anthony from my perspective is a quack.

Now Anthony can miss-quote me all he likes, and attempt ridicule. Surely the use of the compounds I used when I tried pct with hcg and serms, should have had some effect? but I guess not. According to Anthony it’ll only work if you do it exactly like he says so, and only of course if you buy his book.

sounds pretty quacky to me.

The bottom line is I am not some lay person (like most who frequent these boards) who can be shocked and awed by a research study, as I have said before.

Anthony on the other hand doesn’t even know the basics of pharmacology, and yet he has a book!

Anthony will never conceed this however as it would completely devalue his book, and expose him as a quack.

So Anthony you can protest all you like, but you’ll never disprove tapering,as you are not debating me, you are debating against a medical-pharmacological method that has successfully withstood the test of time.

Anthony, how do you feel your protocol would be influenced by not including HCG?

[quote]ME wrote:
Anthony, how do you feel your protocol would be influenced by not including HCG?[/quote]

Negatively…

WOW!!! I don’t visit the boards 4 a week and this is what I miss out on, LOL!
I am not going to side w/ either person on this issue, but rather state what I have tried and how it has + or - affected me…

MY PCT consists of hcg @500iu/d ran for the 10-14 days leading up to near removal of exogenous androgens. During this time, an AI such as letro is ran to prevent further suppression d/t aromatization as hcg does aromatize, and since estrogen is one of many mechanisms to suppress hpta, the goal should be to keep it low while transitioning to nolvadex therapy.

Immediately after hcg’s inclusion, I start nolvadex for 40mg/d for 3 days, and then continue to run it @20mg/d up intil the 3-5 week mark depending on the duration on AAS. That is the method which has worked best for ME…

Now to say prisoner’s tapering protocol does or does not work would be ludicrous as I have yet to attempt such a recovery and I doubt I ever will d/t my personal protocol being so effective…“If it’s not broke, don’t fix it.”

MK

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this thread has been a really good read…

hey katz,

   Have you had blood work done after recovery with the protocol you mentioned??

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:

The study quite clearly does not indicate that the suppression continues beneath the 50mg per week mark, and I don’t care what study anthony want to produce that studied the use of nandrolone decanoate, as this drug does not apply to the argument.

[/quote]

The study I cited was actually one on testosterone where 100mgs/week produced 100% inhibition. So while you are tapering, you aren’t recovering at all.

But attacking my credentials is an interesting strategy. I don’t think it’s really appropriate, however.

The PCT protocol you outlined as being mine wasn’t even close, and I feel that you were simply caught in a lie (“I tried your protocol and it sucks”), now you’re backpedaling, and criticizing the studies I posted, which support and verify my claims that tapering us useless.

Forget the fact that basically every published author in the field is in agreement with the fact that tapering off AAS is useless, you disagree, so thats good enough for…

Nobody.

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:

The study quite clearly does not indicate that the suppression continues beneath the 50mg per week mark, and I don’t care what study anthony want to produce that studied the use of nandrolone decanoate, as this drug does not apply to the argument.

The study I cited was actually one on testosterone where 100mgs/week produced 100% inhibition. So while you are tapering, you aren’t recovering at all.

But attacking my credentials is an interesting strategy. I don’t think it’s really appropriate, however.

The PCT protocol you outlined as being mine wasn’t even close, and I feel that you were simply caught in a lie (“I tried your protocol and it sucks”), now you’re backpedaling, and criticizing the studies I posted, which support and verify my claims that tapering us useless.

Forget the fact that basically every published author in the field is in agreement with the fact that tapering off AAS is useless, you disagree, so thats good enough for…

Nobody.

[/quote]
I don’t lie, eveyone knows that. I have been on this forum much longer than yourself, and the fact of the matter is when I see B.s.I call it. And yes I didn’t do your exact protocol down to a point, however close enough, to know I never want to do hcg again.

As I said, Cy Willson is the Author who I took the idea from. Are you going to attack him as well? (he by the way actually has credentials)

And as for ‘published’ authors as I said before, there is no governing body, no peer review in your world of underground steroid publications, You can write whatever b.s. you like, or interpret studies (not really intentioned for steroid use by bodybuilders) whichever way you like, and publish a book. That doesn’t make you right, any more than that guy on Oprah who made up a memoir.

And as for testosterone being infinitely suppressive, this is the last time I am going to go through this:

exogenously injected testosterone is indistinguishable to the body from it’s own, as it is the exact same molecule.

As levels of exogenous testosterone fall below what the body normally needs, the body [will via the negative feed-back loop (basic physiology -hello!)] will sence this, and begin producing testosterone to pick up the slack.

As exogenous levels fall further, endogenous levels will continue to rise to a point where exogenous levels fall off altogether, and the hpta takes over as the only source for testoterone again.

Since the tapering process is slow, the body has plenty of time to get the testes in good working order, so no need for the hcg use that dominates the rationale for administering hcg in the first place.

Its simple and it works.

The key is ensuring that all other steroids have long left the body before begining the hrt taper, to ensure there isn’t any non-dht converting steroids to mess with libido, or progesterone converting steroids e.t.c Basically, in order to be successfull you need to clean out of all non-testosterone steroids from your body, before you can begin the hrt taper.

It works, I don’t want your money, and I don’t need any status, or attention, In fact my reputation has always been good, so I have no motivation for these arguments, other than I am trying to share with other bros on here, a better and more healthier approach.

but to continue on with this subject now, I would just be repeating myself, So I wil agree to disagree, as it is obvious by now we both are not going to conceed anything.

Hope this isn’t too much of a hijack but since T3 is also a feedback mediated hormone, hope thats the right term, shouldn’t the idea of a slow taper be the best, I know you are supposed to taper simply looking into how much of a taper is needed and at what point you should begin and run it, and if so how much of a taper.

I have heard that small amounts of T3 6.25~12.5mcgs are thought to be unsurpressive so should you taper in bases of this I.e start at 12.5mcg and go up or can you jump in with 50mcg and then simply go with the taper down. thanks just trying to get some thoughts. BB

P-22’s explanation makes sense from a biochemical point of view.
Mr. Roberts I’m curious could I read that study you’re citing?
I don’t want to venture any further than that b/c I don’t know enough…

[quote]MODOK wrote:
Or at least tell us what thread you posted the reference in previously; I can’t seem to find it.[/quote]

Are you looking for Anthony’s PCT?