“so if your doing a keto/anabolic diet and are allowed only 30 grams carbs a day, idealy you want them PW right? sometimes i take my carbs in the morning for breakfast. so waht do you do then for PW shake? just whey? the ni always eat 1 hour PW but since this diet it will be a p+f meal. is this a bad idea?”
Post-workout carbs don’t “count” since they’re being used for a specific important purpose. It changes hormones to an anabolic state and drive nutrients into the muscles. So it is not counted towards your daily carb intake.
So you can get your 30g of carbs throughout the day, then get however many carbs you need during/pre-workout.
The last thing you want to do is compromise your post-workout shake.
I just checked my saturated fat and it is around 15%. I know you stress eating mostly saturated fats but I’m pretty sure most of us are getting more than 10% saturated fats. I also only eat lean meats like chicken, tuna, and lean steaks. I also checked my EFA’s and they come out to 10%. I have to disagree with you still on the EFA thing. Right now I’m getting 10g from flax, 10g from olive oil, and 10g from fish oil.
“so if your doing a keto/anabolic diet and are allowed only 30 grams carbs a day, idealy you want them PW right? sometimes i take my carbs in the morning for breakfast. so waht do you do then for PW shake? just whey? the ni always eat 1 hour PW but since this diet it will be a p+f meal. is this a bad idea?”
Also, if you read Berardi’s latest article you’ll see that the GI of Surge post-workout is actually in the negatives as far as the GI is concerned.
Thats also if I read it right, read it yourself to see if you make the same assertion. Also, my memory might be a bit foggy.
here’s what I want to know. Was JB just sitting around one day in a college nutrition class, and all of a sudden, “Hey P+C, P+F, Massive Eating!” What did the T-Nation do the day massive eating was published? Sometimes I do wonder about the origin of these combo’s and why no one had ever discussed them outright (I acknowledge the anabolic diet and high carb, low fat diet were both onto something). I especially wonder about this when I try to describe how I eat to people ("P and what!?!?). Now what intrigues me is the all Protein meal bridging the two combo’s. Also what intrigues me is the interactions between all three nutrients when they reach “threshold levels” with each other. What happens when I eat too much broccoli with my omelet, or what happens when I eat a couple table- spoons of flax meal with my breakfast carbs? We have an idea of what’s happening, but what about studies to back up these ideas behind the meal combo’s?
Very interesting ramblings here. I’ll try to lend my own thoughts on the matter, and youze can chew 'em up and spit 'em out as per the norm:-)
First off, ingestion of fatty acids in tandem with carbs have been shown to produce a higher insulinemic response despite the fact that fat in and of itself has no impact on insulin levels. This fact makes fat a potentiator of insulin, and this is thought to be mediated via action of gastric inhibitory peptide.
Yes, while our goal in the post-training period is to elevate concentrations of insulin to halt catabolism, we do not want excess fatty acids in the bloodstream at a time when they’re destined to be stored as bodyfat.
Method Man…I appreciate your insight and vantage point. However, I must argue on one hand that glucose is not the preferred source of fuel for the body as you mentioned (i.e. [quote]your body’s preferred source of fuel is glucose[/quote]). As a matter of fact, very few tissues (i.e. the brain) rely on glucose for fuel. Every other tissue can readily use and prefers to use fat–cardiac muscle uses fat exclusively. That being said, in the presence of insulin and high levels of carbs, the body switches over to sugar burning and glucose is forced to become the preferred source of fuel, as lipolysis is halted.
NeilG…I hate to burst your bubble, bro, but “everything” you’ve read (i.e. [quote]Everything I’ve read says that fat helps create lower, more steady insulin responses from carbs.[/quote]) has either been an oversimplification or lacked credibility and scientific research.
I definitely concur with NeilG’s points on fat intake. That is, one should be supplementing with flax/fish oils to maintain a balance between 6s and 3s, not to overconsume 3s relative to 6s. Just as there are adverse effects to high ratios of 6s to 3s, the same is true vice versa. One should also be very concerned with adequate monounsaturates and saturates.
There is no studies that I know of that relate to this topic. For me though, real world experience counts a lot more than reading some study. Sure it would be nice to have some studies but it took a long time for studies to come out on how good steroids worked when people were getting results from them for years before the studies happened.
I actually disagree that there’s no scientific evidence for this pattern of feeding.
This is basic physiology. You’re right, there are no studies in the peer-reviewed journals by my boy JB using a P/C and P/F group, a P/F/C group, and a control group. No. But, there are studies that relate the physiology behind carbohydrate and fat metabolism, which form the basis of these feeding principles.
To say that JB pulled this out of a hat is completely inaccurate. It wasn’t until I delved into the literature this past year in my Master’s studies that I truly understood why this is the most efficient pattern of feeding. JB developed these principles based on both in-the-field experience and scientific evidence, the latter of which preceded and led to the former.
Sorry, I didn’t clarify. I just wasn’t aware of any particular studies on P+C/P+F vs. P+C+F. Now, I know there is scientific evidence behind the idea of meal combining. I wasn’t trying to sound like I didn’t think there was any scientific research behind Berardi’s diet but I guess it came out that way. The point I was trying to make was that just because there isn’t any studies on P+C/P+F vs. P+C+F doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. I actually follow Massive eating principles in just about every diet I follow whether it be cutting or bulking. I found it allows me to bulk with less fat gain and drop bodyfat quicker.
WOW! I just did a search on pubmed on fat metabolism. Man, this will keep me busy for a while. Needless to say, that answered my questions. Out of curiosity, does anyone know the physiological “device(s)” behind nutrient partitioning? For instance, if I eat a few grams of carbs with my P+F meal, but I also consume r-ALA, green tea, cinnamon, etc., will the carbs be better shuttled into my muscle cells? What if I eat this meal 3-4 hours after an anaerobic based sprint or climbing session? Basically, is there a way to eat P+F+C but have all of the nutrients go to the “right places” in your muscles?
I don’t think you should worry about it all that much. Having over 10 grams of carbs in p+f meal or having a little over 10 grams of fat in a p+c meal isn’t a big deal. However, being a pig is!
Another thing is diet is very individual, I have a friend who eats Steak and yam or steak and baked patatoe
like 2 times per day and he is ripped.
He also cheats every 3-4days, whole cheat days! Everyones insulin sensitivities are so different it’s hard to say you can only have X with c+p meal and you over here can only have Y with your p+f meals. I think JB gives his guidlines for simplicity and they are based off of his own research and experience.
I follow JB’s plan and I love it!
I like because it’s simple to follow and it’s a great way to eat, it’s not your typical crash course diet.
By eating a variety of foods I find myself cheating less and less.
JB is awesome and his info has helped thousands of people get bigger and leaner!