To my knowledge John Berardi is the only one who recommends that you separate fat and carbs. Why is this?
Is there any research which backs up the theory? (Not trying to makes Berardi look bad, hes my favorite T-Mag writer, it just puzzles me that I
ve never seen the same advices other places).
Swolecat also recommends it. Chris Shugart likes the idea. Diets like Mauro Pasquale’s Anabolic Diet basically make use of the same idea. In short, the concept’s out there and there are lots of people who espouse it.
Lonnie Lowerly also believes in it. Just read his massive reading article for a better explanation. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I would think there is scientific research to back up this. Couldn’t point you that way but I’m pretty sure it has to do with how eating effects insulin.
Someone please correct me if im way off. I think its because if you spike your insulin with carbohydrates, its best to eat protein with it so that the insulin, which carries nutrients and fats and amino acids through your body, carries the amino acids to the body and muscles rather than fat that you eat at the same time to the body. If that makes sense.
When Fat and Carbs are consumed together, I believe, the insulin response is greater.
hundreds of diets have always been P+C or P+F but what they miss out is the inclusion of the other into the dayliy mix. they swing to far towards favouring one and miss the benfits of the other
Akheron, i dont think that the insulin reponse is greater, its the fact that insulin and trigycerides are both raised at the same time making it easier for fat gain.
Adding fats to carbs generally lowers the insulin output as it can slow gastric emptying, etc
Who else recommends this habit of food combining and timing? I do!
Is there any research that backs up this line of thinking and feeding? Only that which describes the basic principles of human physiology and the hormonal responses to foods.
Once you understand the body’s physiology, then you clearly grasp the wonderful concepts that JB hath bestowed upon us. As a matter of fact, you’ll cringe and wonder why the hell anyone would eat any differently!
I think this is actually an excellent topic because I don’t think that many know why this type of eating pattern is suggeted or why they follow it.
This is not a nutshell conversation or explanation, but I’ll try to make it as clear and concise as possible.
It’s important to include both carbs and fats in the diet because both are necessary. In the absence of carbs, one cannot continue to train intensely. In the absence of fats–especially essential fats–the body is not healthy and does not function properly or optimally, as these are needed for many functions and substances within the body. In addition, you cannot burn your own stores of body fat without adequate dietary fat.
From a body composition standpoint–and even a health standpoint–it’s important to separate these nutrients (i.e. fats and carbs) as well as possible. Every time that carbs are eaten there is a subsequent rise in blood glucose. Because blood glucose must be maintained within a certain range, the body must manage the increase in blood glucose via secretion of the hormone insulin.
Insulin, for us, acts as a double-edged sword. While it helps shuttle glucose and amino acids into the muscle, it also shuttles fatty acids in the bloodstream into fat cells (and muscle cells) via conversion to triglycerides.
Insulin mediates both lipolysis (i.e. fat breakdown) and lipogenesis (i.e. fat building) via enzymatic control. In the former case, insulin inhibits lipolysis by inhibition of hormone sensitive lipase. In the latter case, lipogenesis is stimulated by increasing the activity of lipoprotein lipase, the enzyme responsible for creation of triglycerides.
This is just the tip of the iceberg but definitely lends insight into this type of eating pattern.
Suzanne Sommers does too.
Wait, fat SLOWS absorption of carbs. Isn’t that why fat is to be avoided workout time? And doesn’t the right protein with carbs increase the insulin response? Isn’t that one of the ideas behind Surge? If fat increased insulin response of carbs, wouldn’t there be recommendations to take flax or something post workout with the Surge? Correct me if I’m wrong.
Neil
Fat (120 calories) has been shown to increase insulin response of carbs. We don’t eat fat P-W because it slows digestion of carbs (which the muscle cells are hungry for) and will store as fat in the high insulin situation.
Protein increases insulin response of carbs. But what Suzanne Sommers doesn’t realize, is that it later triggers glucagon, which is antagonistic to insulin. Protein has an after-effect of moderating blood sugar released from carbs, perhaps shortening the length or after-effects of the insulin release. In the high-insulin situation P-W, protein is more likely to be used as a building block of muscle or burned for energy than it is to be stored as fat.
Brian,
“Fat (120 calories) has been shown to increase insulin response of carbs. We don’t eat fat P-W because it slows digestion of carbs (which the muscle cells are hungry for) and will store as fat in the high insulin situation.”
How does fat slow digestion of carbs and increase insulin response at the same time?
And how is the fat stored as fat in this situation?
Neil
I hate to just dismiss the conclusions Berandi and Swole et. al have come to, but I think they’ve overanalyzed and thus mis-extrapolated the entire process of consuming food for several reasons. Yes, granted, I do not feel that high-II index carbs should be eaten in high amounts with high amounts of fat (the only exception I would make to this is in the case of poly-unsaturates…). HOWEVER, in the grand scheme of things, it think it’s largely irrelevant, and here’s why:
Yes, ingesting carbs ‘puts the brakes’ on lipolysis-- makes sense, your body’s preferred source of fuel is glucose. Irregardless, whether or not that fat you just ingested with your carb meal is stored or oxidized around the point of ingestion if you’re hypocaloric, you’ll burn it off soon enough anyways (probably during sleep). That’s what IMO people like Berandi fail to understand: at the end of the day, it’s calories in and calories out. Thus, if you’re theoretically eating exactly at maintainence, then any fat you stored during the day would then be later released and oxidized as you sleep. The only time the carbs + fat combination becomes a serious problem is when you’re in a serious mass phase and are very hypercaloric. Then, I’d be more careful to consume fibrous, low-II carbs around high-fat meals, but once again, if you look at some of the research on some polys, many appear to have glucose-partitioning benefits in and of themselves, which is why I see absolutely no problem with (and consequently have seen absolutely no weight gain from…) consuming fish/flax/GLA with even high amounts of carbs. Now granted, I’m a sprinter, and thus have concluded that my EPOC levels are pretty much elevated 24/7, but even individuals with lower activity levels shouldn’t stress it that much. Once again, it’s more a matter of balancing your macro-intakes with the right micros, not how/when you ingest said micros.
There are also other aspects to this as well, such as:
a.) fat can be stored even in the absence of insulin
b.) there’s a difference between regularly eating fats/starches that come together in the form of processed, trans-fat heavy foods: think a plate of nachos or a box of Oreos. With all due respect to Berandi and Swole, fuck carbs + fat, that’s just BAD FOR YOU PERIOD. In the greater scheme of things, said meal is much different in terms of physiological impact than a calorically identical meal of steak and sweet potatoes. The carbs + fat thing should be viewed more as a general caveat of eating to make you take stock of the micro-composition of a meal-- it should be a guide, not the end-all-be-all of your eating choices.
c.)The idea is that fat increases insulin resistance is pretty spacious reasoning according to most of the research I’ve seen. The gist is if you combo fat + high GI carbs you will spend more time with elevated insulin running around your blood stream because it will take longer to get that sugar disposed of. This is true if your binge eating on bad foods what I listed above, but doesn’t really matter-- once again-- if you’re busting some oatmeal and an omelet.
IMO, with the notable exception of pre/during/post workout nutrition, the carbs/fat issue is largely irrelevant. Ultimately, I think everyone who’s in the no carb+fat camp has just fallen victim to logical error and assumed that if X is bad for you then doing the oppisite of X is good for you. I don’t want to get into all that voodoo correlation/causation ish, so I’ll basically sum it up by saying that basically being a glutton is bad. But if your not being a glutton then fat + carb thing dosent really matter in the grand scheme of things except with workout nutrition. “Holla.” lol…
Method,
“c.)The idea is that fat increases insulin resistance is pretty spacious reasoning according to most of the research I’ve seen.”
I’ve heard this argument, but it’s just twisting of facts. Fat does increase insulin resistance, but the key is that it’s stored bodyfat that causes insulin resistance, not dietary fat.
“The gist is if you combo fat + high GI carbs you will spend more time with elevated insulin running around your blood stream because it will take longer to get that sugar disposed of. This is true if your binge eating on bad foods what I listed above, but doesn’t really matter-- once again-- if you’re busting some oatmeal and an omelet.”
Fat slows down digestion of carbs, meaning that the insulin response is lower and longer, which would be a good idea for gaining cycles. And if you’re trying to lose weight, I don’t see why you would be eating any carbs other than post-workout and some veggies.
Neil
NeilG, there is no contradiction that fat slows down gastric emptying, yet increases insulin spike of carbs in the meal. That’s one of the major arguments for the superiority of the Insulin Index over the Glycemic Index. Also, insulin resistance is not always secondary to bodyweight. Diets higher than 40% fat have been shown to increase insulin resistance, and also the ratio of types of fat (mono:poly:sat and Omega-3:Omega-6) is MOST important to not create a situation of insulin resistance in a non-overweight individual.
When insulin is high, fat in the bloodstream stores and the stores cannot be broken down into triglyceride for energy use.
Brian,
“NeilG, there is no contradiction that fat slows down gastric emptying, yet increases insulin spike of carbs in the meal.”
How does this happen?
“That’s one of the major arguments for the superiority of the Insulin Index over the Glycemic Index.”
Is insulin index the same as glycemic load?
“Diets higher than 40% fat have been shown to increase insulin resistance, and also the ratio of types of fat (mono:poly:sat and Omega-3:Omega-6) is MOST important to not create a situation of insulin resistance in a non-overweight individual.”
I’d be very inerested to see where this info came from. Everything I’ve read says that fat helps create lower, more steady insulin responses from carbs. And if 40% is the limit, then most traditional cultures should have been been insulin resistant. Especially people like the Swiss who would eat lots of dairy fat and oats.
Take care,
Neil
Good question Squatman. I’ve always wondered about this.
I think this is actually an excellent topic because I don’t think that many know why this type of eating pattern is suggeted or why they follow it.
Agreed.
Insulin, for us, acts as a double-edged sword. While it helps shuttle glucose and amino acids into the muscle, it also shuttles fatty acids in the bloodstream into fat cells (and muscle cells) via conversion to triglycerides.
So in the absence of carbs/blood glucose in a P+F meal, where do the fatty acids go? They can’t all be burned for fuel as they are not efficient and the body prefers carbs for energy?
Fat (120 calories) has been shown to increase insulin response of carbs. We don’t eat fat P-W because it slows digestion of carbs…
Interesting. 120 calories is only 13g of fat. Is that why the recommendation is below 10g of fat?
I’ve also wondered. In the case of say Surge and flax, based on a previous post a while back, wouldn’t the stomach empty the Surge first and then empty the flax later hence slowing gastric epmtying only a LITTLE?
…and will store as fat in the high insulin situation.
Again, where would the fat go otherwise?
How does fat slow digestion of carbs and increase insulin response at the same time?
Good question.
Now, in the light of NielG’s previous post that most of ones fat should come from saturates as too much EFAs (monos and polys) is actually BAD for the health (BTW Timbo, what do you think of this assertion?).
In this case, a MacDonald’s double cheeseburger would make an excellent P+F meal if you drop the bun?
So essentially, MacDonalds make the general population fat because they are eating the the P+C+F together? But if you drop the C, then it’s alright???
I’m confused.
At first, as most people did, I thought that carbs were burnt for energy and fat was sent straight into the fat cells.
Then, when the low-carb fad came about, I thought that fat was OK if they were EFAs.
Now, EFAs are bad and saturates are good.
A7,
“In this case, a MacDonald’s double cheeseburger would make an excellent P+F meal if you drop the bun?”
There are issues with fast food hamburger because they add soy to add bulk to the meat (i.e. less meat and cheaper). Not to mention who knows what the hell else they’re doing to it.
“So essentially, MacDonalds make the general population fat because they are eating the the P+C+F together? But if you drop the C, then it’s alright???”
I would be willing to bet that what causes the fatness is mainly the huge sodas (isn’t a large soda around 160g of high fructose corn syrup?), followed by the white buns, then the potatoes in the french fries, but I’m sure the HUGE amount of trans fats in the french fries is a big factor. The amount in them is scary. Not to mention the desserts they have there. Apple pie to go…great
“Now, EFAs are bad and saturates are good.”
No, EFA’s aren’t bad, you just don’t want excessive amounts of them. Balance is the key, as with everything, and if you eat your saturated fats, supplementing with some fish oils (preferably cod liver oil) is ideal. It’s when people have diets very low in saturated fat that supplementing with EFAs is questionable.
Hope this helps,
Neil
NeilG,
What do you called low in saturated fats and what would you consider an excessive amount of EFA’s?
ok guys
so if your doing a keto/anabolic diet and are allowed only 30 grams carbs a day, idealy you want them PW right? sometimes i take my carbs in the morning for breakfast. so waht do you do then for PW shake? just whey? the ni always eat 1 hour PW but since this diet it will be a p+f meal. is this a bad idea?
Jason,
Low in saturated fat is what the USDA recommends…less than 10% of calories.
High in PUFA is about over 5% of calories.
Take care,
Neil