now that you have me on a roll, I do have some of Ian Kings stuff and I will say that it is very good. I learn a lot from him and he is just like the westside guys and charles staley in that he is very accessible (with staley and louie simmons being so helpful and accessible, it kinda suprises me that they have the time). the biggest problem I have will all of these guys who sell correspondance programs, is how damn expensive they are. I honestly think that all of these guys over charge for what they provide. it is just that if I am going to be overcharged, I want to get something out of it, and I have found that I do get stuff out of the Ian king work.
none of these guys can provide enough information to justify their insane rates, and sometimes the worst part of me feels that they know that they have all these desperate guys like us out there who are starving for information in such a young and inexperienced field like personal training, so they take advantage of that by raking us over the coals. that is why this website is pretty refreshing in that it is free.
but once again I must emphatically state that I believe that these gurus should be providing much more for what they charge. and since nothing short of them showing up at my gym and showing me the stuff themselves is practically impossible, it is my opinion that they should not charge so much.
Poliquin may be a very good strength coach with an awesome client list. Chek might have some very good stuff to contribute as well. to charge what they charge for their internships/certifications is ridiculous. Dave Tate is very knowledgable in the strength field as well, he doesn’t charge an arm and a leg for his stuff. I have all hte westside videos (Louies, the seminar, etc.) They are worth their weight in gold. I also have almost all of Poliquins books and read many of his articles from various publications as well as here. I met Poliquin at hte Arnold and spoke with him for a bit. He was cocky, arrogant, talked smack about Ian King and Paul Chek as well. Funny, I read his books and he refers to them as his “colleagues” in person he told me all Chek knows is “the core” and he said Ian’s programs were BS. I met Louie this year at the WPO finals. He talked with me for quite a while. He answered every question I asked, as well as asked me what I thought about certain things. He actually seemed interested to talk with me and hear what I had to say. Everytime I call Elite Fitness for a question or order, I typically talk to Jim W. He doesn’t try to give you advice after you make an order, he honestly gives a shit about what your goals are and what you are trying to do. Whether it was a training question, or a question about PL gear or meets, or their products he was incredibly thorough. Dave Tate is a buisness man, but he also cares about the industry and the people that he services, that is what makes EFS such a good company. Dave has always said he believes in giving back to the industry that has given him so much. That is what sets him apart from others like Poliquin, IMO. Plus, Tate can get under the bar and back up what he preaches. I think it is ridiculous Chek and Poliquin and others charge so much for what they have to offer. There are other places to find this info without the ridiculous price tag.
Just my opinion,
Scott
Davidian,
When I asked if it were worth it, I meant in a purely financial perspective. Paul Chek?s results speak for themselves. He has helped tons of people feel better, and that is a great thing. I am sure you know that Charles Poliquin has coached numerous gold medalists in the Olympics, and is continuing to do so today. Can the same be said for most college professors? A lot (but not all) of college professors and graduates in the fields that you listed or all theory and know application. Chek and Poliquin have gotten results in the real world. You are correct in stating that a lot of free advice and knowledge can be found, and T-mag is one of the best sources. However, as Ian King has said in the past there is know absolute knowledge, which is why I read everyone. Do not get me wrong here, I respect an education, but I really love the great insight given by those who have the education and the real world results which equals many T-mag contributors.
My close friend who is making a very good income can attribute this directly to his Chek certification. He works with a progressive physical therapist that hired him do to the fact that he is Chek certified. However; I realize his case is rare. He was lucky to find an individual that did not let his ego distort his view on how to properly treat clients.
Bamit, you make some really good points. I will say that if you are interested in rehab type work, I don’t think the chek seminar is such a bad deal (while still expensive) with one caveat. make sure that you work with or around physical therapists, chiro’s, or physicians who specialize in sports rehab. the reason why I feel this is necessary is because I find it very difficult to believe that you can go to a chek seminar for 10 days, then go out into the real world and do all his assesments accurately and not make any mistakes in your exercise prescriptions. having such people there to constantly watch you and to reinforce and correct, is in my opinion, one of the few ways to be able to develop the things you learn in the internship, to any appreciable level. I think the program would be good for doctors, pt’s, atc’s, and chiro’s, looking for some additional ideas for their practice (note i said additional, I don’t think chek is any smarter then most of those people aforementioned, he just has a different perspective). It is just that I never really felt comfortable during or after the intern, in using the things that I was taught. I really feel they were above both the legal and technical scope of my practice. however, I don’t think chek cares who takes his course, as long as they add to his legions (he really seems to be in love with the idea of him leading some kinda self trained fitness army) and fill his coffers.
with that said, I 100% agree with all the things said about the westside guys. you can throw staley in there too.
MikeShank,
Thank you for the advice. I believe that you are right on with everything you wrote. One thing that is holding me back is the fact that many Chek practitioners are not making a very good living. I believe that this is Paul Chek?s fault, if he expects for people to pay large amounts of money for his certification, he should market his pupils. As stated before I believe the information he teaches is great, but I am questioning his marketing skills. Just like Spineflow26 wrote, many people do not know who Chek is, that is Chek?s fault. And to concur, the Westside guys do rule. Dave Tate is running things the way they should be run. I am getting a DVD from them for X-mas, and I cannot wait to watch it, and apply what I learn in the weight room.
Wow guys this is all excellent info!
To talk about my chek internship again. I did learn a lot of great stuff about the core. I just wasn?t to keen on the ?holistic stuff? I think some of that stuff is good but I wanted more S and C. I still have to say it was not a waste though. I think I learned some good things about evaluation and spinal problems which have given me a lot of confidence when dealing with less conditioned clients. I also took the internship because I very much want to be more involved in rehab as I progress.
Poliquin was cocky?you don?t say! Hahaha. I too have read Poliquins articles and he recommends CHEK videos to people all the time. CHEK has a program design course where he uses lots of Poliquins ideas.
I have some speed tapes of Ian King I haven?t watched yet. I?ll have to check them out soon. Westside sounds like a good bet as well. Mike thanks for giving me the heads up on the RTS stuff. I really appreciate that! That?s why I came on here was to hear different opinions. Thanks for the info
Does anybody else out there have any experience with Tom Purvis and/or RTS. I would start a seperate thread on this but I would like to keep all the information right here.
I finally got a chance to get onto the RTS site. this is the first thing that I read, it is pretty telling:
“Exercising does not make one an exercise specialist - any more than having surgery makes one a surgeon!”
I find this funny because there are a lot of people in this field that I learn a lot from who gained most of their knowledge about exercise from actually “getting under the bar”
I may be a fool for even trying to argue this statement logically but, when you get surgery you are getting acted upon, usually unconsciously. when you exercise, you are actually doing the work and getting direct feedback from your body.
hey Mike
I just thought this was interesting. I coresponde with the Toronto Maple leafs strength coach here in Toronto sometimes via email. He has interned under Poloquin as well as chek. I asked him what he thought of the chek internships. He agreed that the chek protocols were not for every situation but explained that he has gotten very good results with athletes with certain problem areas. And interesting note he gave me was what he saw Paul do when they had a work out togther. The following is from his email
Snatch Grip Overhead Barbell Lunges - 215lbs for 10 reps
Single Arm Overhead Dumbbell Lunge - 100lbs x 5 reps
Barbell Lunge - 295 x 4 reps
Deadlift - 500lbs
Single Arm Dumbbell Clean & Jerk - 180lbs
Single Arm Chin-Ups - 2 full reps
Single Arm Push-Ups - 100 reps
I know this does not reflect what is learned in the internships I just thought it would be cool to post
Yeah that statement is not well thought out. If you were to perform surgery on yourself (like exercise), I guess you would know a thing or two about it.
spine flow-that is pretty cool-and I think that it is important that all of us practice what we preach. those numbers are by no way shabby. but to a certain extent-while still impressive-I would have expected greater numbers from a guy who in his words “has no structural faults” in regards to his body.
I know that I probably outweigh the guy by a lot (220lbs is my weight) but I still get a kick out of the fact that my raw deadlift is 35lbs higher than chek’s. And I am a self admitted know-nothing shlub, who goes on to this site and defranco’s site, to become better at what I do.
Not to be a dick or nothing-but-what is up with all those whacky lifts anyway? Some of those lifts I had to think about for a second to get some idea as to what he was doing. One arm chins, one arm pushups, overhead snatch grip lunges? Does anybody out there have any guess as to why he uses such unique lifts.
one other note: a positive about paul chek-it was at one of his clinics that I first heard the name John Berardi. we were at his you are what you eat seminar and he asked the crowd if anybody had ever heard of a guy named John Berardi. chek’s next statement was that if we hadn’t, we should go read everything we can by “that guy” because (an this is in chek’s exact words) he really is on the money and is one of the few people out there who knows what he is doing. that was 3 or 4 years ago. I thought fans of DR. JOHN would find that interesting.
[quote]Does anybody out there have any guess as to why he uses such unique lifts.
[/quote]
because it gives him a gimmick perhaps?
all gurus need a gimmick and a reason for the buyer to come back, funny gadgets, whacky exercises, a groovy catchphrase, a clothing line etc etc…
dont believe any numbers from anyone unless you see them with your own eyes.
as i said before, where are his real results? no hearsay from emails, or ‘he has helped thousands of people’ who? where? when? where are all the superdooper check moster ‘core’ athletes? surely they will be dominating world competion sometime soon? wont they?
David
Very good point. I know those numbers where just off an email. On the other hand I did meet a women myself who had been in a serious car accident and practicaly couldnt walk. SHe went out to California to train with Paul and she is much better today adn able to walk and move. Again she is no billy badass athlete but that is one person who told me directly to my face how much she was helped. She said she was almost a new person. Not t-mag material mind you but still that is some impressive rehab
davidian-maybe it is a gimmick, but I was more of thinking along the lines of:
- He has some unworldly strength imbalances between his right and left limbs.
- He has some type of back injury which prevents direct axial loading. could explain the inclusion of the deads and overhead lunges, however it does not explain why he can do regular lunges.
- the single arm clean and jerk with 180lbs is a pretty freaky lift. I would be stupid to argue that it doesn’t require strength to do it, but it sounds like something that would require more technique than anything else.
anybody out there know paul chek at all? what’s up with those lifts.
Hi everybody
I?ve followed the T-Nation articles for almost three years, but i?m new on the forum. Actually it was Paul Chek that told me about T-Nation.
I?m an msc in excercise physiology and as a strength coach I have worked for 7 years with international level athletes from different sports. Since 2003 I?ve been in two of the programs from the institute (the Chek practitioner program and the nutrition and lifestyle program)and I?ve completed the first two levels of each. I?ll give a quick summary of what I have and haven?t learned
- A human is spiritual, mental, emotional and physical beeing.
- All the above mentioned factors are assessed: THE BETTER YOU KNOW A PERSON FROM ALL ANGLES THE BETTER THE CHANCE YOU HAVE TO ADRESS HIS/HERS WEAK POINTS
- Even the smallest weakness anywhere in the body can limit Your progress at any level of strength/power.
- You learn to work with the body from the toes to the jaw and you learn to build the body from the inside out
- You learn only a few of the many strategies for strength and power development.
- You learn only and few of the many periodization models.
- You doesn?t learn much about neck and grip strength
- Excercise wise the unique things is how to work with the swissball (and You can developstrenght on that)
- As a strength coach You must learn from many different sources.
- Healt and vitality is the foundation of strength.
As You can see the chek program, definitely doesn?t provide all the answers, but it?s provides you the most comprehensive model of the human body/mind/soul i?ve ever come across and very comprehensive assesment tools. It?s not only about rehab. You also gets the tools to pinpoint weakness in a guy who can clean and jerk 400 pounds or whatever.
What i?ve learned in the chekprograms has helped me train both world champions, olympic medalists and tennis pros.
PS: I?ve worked out with Paul several times. He?s the real deal!!
I can’t say for sure, but I recall being told by one of Chek’s top people that he had a messed up L5-S1 disk. So that might be the reason for some of the uncommon lifts listed above. However, I can say without a doubt that he is the real deal in the weightroom. His methods work. Are they the be all end all when it comes to strength training?? No of course not. Anyone who reads this site will realize there are many effective methods and that all can be used to achieve results. However, for rehab (especially for athletes)I can’t think of anyone better. His methods will help balance the body and prepare it to properly handle the stresses of more demanding training such as the Westside template.
Kj & Boss14,
Thank you for the great insight.
kj and boss, thank you for contributing. I guess I have a chip on my shoulder over chek because of the experience with the internship and all the money I had to spend on it. I went in thinking I was taking the first step into helping myself train championship athletes, but left feeling like the only use I had for the information is if I was working with injured people.
I will still stand by my criticisms of chek in that he does not market his internship as a rehabilitation specialty and that his methods are only really achievable for me unless I have constant support and direct supervision and feedback (10 days in the intern was just not enough).
I have found that he not only claims his work to help with the injured, but also with individuals seeking high end performance. His abs in abs out article is pretty definative proof of that. I really get the vibe from him that he thinks he is all that, the best, in every phase of training, not just rehab. Maybe it is just a vibe that I get from him, but after reading this forum, there seem to be others out there who agree.
I will say that everytime I watched his tapes and somebody else walked into the room, the first comment that they would always make is “boy, that guy is really full of himself”. believe me that I have heard that a dozen times myself and plenty of other people have related similar instances to me.
I also find some of his stuff to be way out there, and what I mean by that is that it is unneccessarily (sp) over complicated and expensive. I really feel that he talks this way not to sound professional but as some kinda small man syndrome or maybe to make up for the fact that he doesn’t have a college degree or from what I have heard, even a high school diploma (I could be wrong on that last one but I remember somebody in his camp telling me that).
I have also researched some of his comments and found them to be grossly unsubstantiated such as his comments that condoms don’t block the aids virus (when I did my research on this I found that this is only true in poorly made latex condoms). But chek used it in one of his lectures I attended as a form of shock value I guess.
I really started this thread as a way for me to vent my frustration with my whole experience with the intern. I went in thinking that I was going to get this black and white, direct path to success, and only found myself being disappointed once again with yet another guru who I thought had all the answers.
I like the various experiences this post is bringing about. It would be great to have more people weigh in on other experiences/internships etc. I have taken many different internships and courses that have helped me directly and indirectly with athletes and physical conditioning. Some were good other useless. I am personally curious about the Poliquin internship. Again here is a guy who is apparently cocky and arrogant and claims to be the smartest trainer on the planet. I would like to hear from others who know first hand how this compares with other great trainers. I don’t want politically correct or some toned down cutesie version just to sound professional. Give it it to us straight. What did you experience how does it compare. Is the info accurate or just shock value/preference/substantiated. True opinions are appreciated. If the guy is an arrogant jerk…say so.
Thanks Guys.