[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
overtraining…any amount of work over and above that which your body, provided adequate rest and nutrients, cannot respond to and gain from…How is that? >>>
[/quote]
Lots of good stuff, but we have a winner here boys and girls. This is how I would define overtraining. Not undereating, not undersleeping, not too many other activities. Those thing are those things.
Overtraining is when, despite all other requirements being adequately met, your volume, intensity or frequency, or any combination of the 3, places a greater demand than it’s possible to supercompensate for.
Anyone who does not believe that they have a threshold somewhere up that scale beyond which they are doing more harm than good has been reading too many comic books.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
overtraining…any amount of work over and above that which your body, provided adequate rest and nutrients, cannot respond to and gain from…How is that? >>>
Lots of good stuff, but we have a winner here boys and girls. This is how I would define overtraining. Not undereating, not undersleeping, not too many other activities. Those thing are those things.
Overtraining is when, despite all other requirements being adequately met, your volume, intensity or frequency, or any combination of the 3, places a greater demand than it’s possible to supercompensate for.
Anyone who does not believe that they have a threshold somewhere up that scale beyond which they are doing more harm than good has been reading too many comic books.[/quote]
That’s a great definition, to which I agree. I just wonder how many instances there truly are of this happening.
Eventually its all going to catch up to you.
Its going to take someone who doesnt have a job, who gets to sleep 10 hours a night, and only has to lift the next day LONGER to reach an overtrained state than the guy who is sleeping six hours a night, has to get up and do his job, and lift.
Nutrition is the other factor in determining how training is effecting you.
The guy who can sleep for 10 hours and just has to worry about eating and lifting WILL eventually become overtrained if hes lifting seven days a week, 365 days a year. Your body is still not going to be able to recover optimally.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
overtraining…any amount of work over and above that which your body, provided adequate rest and nutrients, cannot respond to and gain from…How is that? >>>
Lots of good stuff, but we have a winner here boys and girls. This is how I would define overtraining. Not undereating, not undersleeping, not too many other activities. Those thing are those things.
Overtraining is when, despite all other requirements being adequately met, your volume, intensity or frequency, or any combination of the 3, places a greater demand than it’s possible to supercompensate for.
Anyone who does not believe that they have a threshold somewhere up that scale beyond which they are doing more harm than good has been reading too many comic books.[/quote]
Great post Tiribulus.
If you don’t know overtraining, you are either a genetic freak like Jerry Rice or Karl Malone OR you had great coaching and education early on OR you’re a complete pussy in the gym.
[quote]martin blank wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
overtraining…any amount of work over and above that which your body, provided adequate rest and nutrients, cannot respond to and gain from…How is that? >>>
Lots of good stuff, but we have a winner here boys and girls. This is how I would define overtraining. Not undereating, not undersleeping, not too many other activities. Those thing are those things.
Overtraining is when, despite all other requirements being adequately met, your volume, intensity or frequency, or any combination of the 3, places a greater demand than it’s possible to supercompensate for.
Anyone who does not believe that they have a threshold somewhere up that scale beyond which they are doing more harm than good has been reading too many comic books.
That’s a great definition, to which I agree. I just wonder how many instances there truly are of this happening.
[/quote]
A fair question. I imagine not nearly as often as some would believe. Especially in young healthy people. The point remains that there are limits to what any organism can withstand. The fact that is even being debated puzzles me. The question was “does overtraining exist”, not how often.
[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
Then the stress affects the training, which in turn affects the stress (“My workouts have sucked lately,” etc), and on and on.
A vicious cycle, no?
[/quote]
lol Bingo. I have had a lot of people tell me “Hey, if your so stressed, why don’t you go workout?” Sure, a good solution many times… but not every time.
Another good way of phrasing it. I guess I was hung up on what I’ve read from some sources concerning young healthy people who claim they can’t grow. Overtraining doesn’t sound likely to me as a problem they’re having.
Now, my 36 year old ass could probably overtrain easily- if I didn’t have to work all week, take the kids to and from school, mow the lawn, …
Another good way of phrasing it. I guess I was hung up on what I’ve read from some sources concerning young healthy people who claim they can’t grow. Overtraining doesn’t sound likely to me as a problem they’re having.
Now, my 36 year old ass could probably overtrain easily- if I didn’t have to work all week, take the kids to and from school, mow the lawn, …[/quote]
Lime disease may be more common in young healthy people claiming they “can’t grow” than actual overtraining. My money is on undereating in most of their cases.
Like you say, I’m 42 and I train very hard, but some intelligent foresight has to be taken or I will have more than the annoying, but manageable aches and pains I have now.
I am 44 now and being a competitive powerlifter I pay special attention to what my body is telling me. I train pretty much like the Westside guys do with Max effort days and Speed days. We change max effort exercises every three weeks to try and keep the CNS from frying. But I still have to back off every third or fourth week and either deload or not trian at all. Big Chad can only go two or three weeks in row and he’s fried, but how many guys could do ME squats up to 1150 lbs., 2 board ME bench up to 825, and finally deadlift 750lbs. ? The loads are so great he has to take every second or third week off, and with Chad his sleep is the best gauge, as soon as he can’t sleep he takes time off, and then when he can sleep again he comes back, and every time he comes back he is stronger than before. Ed Coan, Geroge Halbert and almost all of the greats in powerlifting know that when sleep and attitude start to go, soon their strength will follow and its time to take a break. I wish everyone the best with your training, and learn to listen to your body because surgery and injury suck.
[quote]powerhouse reno wrote:
I am 44 now and being a competitive powerlifter I pay special attention to what my body is telling me. I train pretty much like the Westside guys do with Max effort days and Speed days. We change max effort exercises every three weeks to try and keep the CNS from frying. But I still have to back off every third or fourth week and either deload or not trian at all. Big Chad can only go two or three weeks in row and he’s fried, but how many guys could do ME squats up to 1150 lbs., 2 board ME bench up to 825, and finally deadlift 750lbs. ? The loads are so great he has to take every second or third week off, and with Chad his sleep is the best gauge, as soon as he can’t sleep he takes time off, and then when he can sleep again he comes back, and every time he comes back he is stronger than before. Ed Coan, Geroge Halbert and almost all of the greats in powerlifting know that when sleep and attitude start to go, soon their strength will follow and its time to take a break. I wish everyone the best with your training, and learn to listen to your body because surgery and injury suck.
George [/quote]
Very well said, but you should tell them since figure skaters can train 6-8 hours every day they’re placing limits on themselves by not doing the same (lighthearted sarcasm) =]
[quote]Dave Rogerson wrote:
Overtraining is a very real concept that does indeed occur. However OT is a chronic state whereas O.R is an acute state. [/quote]
Most important words on this thread I think. I don’t think I’ve ever been in a legit overtraining state. I believe overtraining is (as said above) a chronic state of hormonal imbalance that can take a long time to recover from. Even as a college athlete with 2-hour practices every day or matches as well as lifting 2-3 times per week, I don’t think I’ve ever been “overtrained.” However, there have definitly been times where lowering my volume or intensity in training (either in-season or off-season) has helped me make more progress.
I think that people reach that acute state of over-reaching more than they realize. I would speculate that many athletes would make faster progress (in speed and power displays, maybe not strength as much) by reducing their training volume. However, I would imagine that most people are not overtraining as they think they are.
In terms of bodybuilding, if I’m not correct, hypertrophy is a response to that acute overreaching, with proper recovery your body responds to that stimulus by producing more muscle mass. So I would think this would be why so many have success building muscle with a high volume program. Even though they may have accumulated neural fatigue that might be somewhat masking their potential, since strength (especially strength in the 4+ rep range) is so reliant on the muscles them selves (as opposed to CNS), they can make great progress like that.
But if you look at say, a sprinter, there’s no way in hell you can say that more = better. So I guess, as always, you need to look at your individual goals and match up the right training methods.
I want to keep this as short and simple as possible.
Everyone responds differant to differant stimuli.
Age,nutrition, ergonenic aides, gender, sex, stress level, training level, training history, flexibility, family obligations, financial obligations can all contribute.
Ever heard of over eating, over sleeping, over worked?
If you give a kid a math book, english book, science book and history book and tell him to read, read, read and read! Chances are just cause he is reading he will not retain everything he read. How many times have you read something and towards the end you didnt even know what you were reading about? People need breaks.
Phill, this is really what I am trying to get to here, but kind of like a negotiation you have to push the envelope by overasking in order to get people to get where you want. Nicely stated post!
[/quote]
LOL I hear you bro and understand what your saying and doing Hopefully it helps.
I think what’s more common than overtraining is doing too much work for the expressed goal. For instance, doing scharzenneger-esque workouts when you want to hypertrophy and you are a natural trainer with average genetics.
You’re not going to get very big with that kind of volume day in day out. Your body will adapt to it with time, so you will be able to keep coming back, but most won’t see the physical adaptations that they want to see, like hypertrophy.
[quote]tveddy wrote:
I don’t believe in overtraining, just poor eating and sleeping habits.[/quote]
I don’t think that we (anybody) KNOW enough about the nervous system yet in order to give this argument an answer that will just shut the door and end the argument once and for all. I mean the nervous system is this larger, uber complicated entity that us mankind do not fully understand. yet is just seems irrational to think that there are no limits to the human body.
I suggest that once a day somebody bumps up this topic and in twenty years we come back to it and hopefully we know more about this subject to finally end the argument of overtraining. Hey if we bump it long enough, in twenty years the authors of the site will notice it and know enough to enter this thread and give us the answer.
[quote]Phill wrote:
Overtrainming = VERY real but RARE IMO and MUCH harder to get to then ppl think.
I do agree it has gone to far to the point of being cructh for working hard and adapting to the work. BVUT yes I can say I did over train it was a mix of diet and training and Work.
I was 215 lbs went on a very very strict low cal (2000 or less) a day diet nearly zero fat, went from not doing cardio to jogging twice a day EVERY DAY, lifting full body, twice a day 3 -4 times a week for 45-60 minutes,. working full time hard labor (tire shop) 6 days a week.
Lets just say that was over kill i dropped VERY fats to 165 on my frame thats LOW my body quit havning the ability to even heat itself, Im still to this day and for life will be paying for it with health probs etc.
So yes its real but its a Mix of drastic diet and massive amounts of over work coupled with life stressors.
Yes real, but over played as an excuse
Phill [/quote]
Phill, my entery for Nebraska’s Strongest Man goes into the mail tomorrow morning so I will see you there in July!
