Ph34r teh calves.
[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
Please stop saying these things. You know nothing about fighting.[/quote]
Bahahaha, man, whoever is doing this trolling job is doing an awesome job. Like spectacularly awesome.
There are a few dudes that used this level of hyperbole in years past, I just wonder if its the same dude.
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Ph34r teh calves.[/quote]
This guy has a big time calf fetish I think.
You can draw a lot of power out the calves. As to Jonny, you can go on about “clinch” strength being built in hard sessions with other good clinchers, which is true. However when people develop the strength to literally bend giant spikes with their bare hands from using a sledge. yeah, that is hand-strength that directly translates into how well you can clinch someone.
It’s absurd to think that build crushing grip strength with your hands and fingers would do anything but serve you well in a muay thai clinch. power-lifting doesn’t translate as well as some other things for certain forms of crushing grip strength. Doesn’t mean a muay thai figher shouldn’t be improving hand/wrist strength in a variety of ways other than hard clinching sessions.
When you have a pair of hands as strong as vice grips around your neck, because some guy has built up to being able to work a 16pound hammer for hours, you’d probably think differently.
Trust me, as someone that has clinched all kinds of large, strong athletes, that strength does not directly correlate to clinching. If you want to find out about that, go to Thailand and train. Or come here and I will give you private lessons for free.
Stop talking about things you know nothing about. I’m not gonna talk about lumberjacking because I’ve never done it. Likewise you should stop talking about fighting until you’ve actually got some experience.
[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
Please stop saying these things. You know nothing about fighting.[/quote]
He’s sucked you into posting more and answering at least one of my questions. For that he has my gratitude.
Maybe we can get him to disparage Catch Wrestling or Yoda DJ’ing to get Xen out of semi-lurk status.
Another question if you don’t mind: IronClaws is talking about hand strength helping the clinch. How much to the wraps and gloves change how you grip? I have never worked clinching/standing grappling with boxing gloves on so I am at a loss.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
Trust me, as someone that has clinched all kinds of large, strong athletes, that strength does not directly correlate to clinching. If you want to find out about that, go to Thailand and train. Or come here and I will give you private lessons for free.
Stop talking about things you know nothing about. I’m not gonna talk about lumberjacking because I’ve never done it. Likewise you should stop talking about fighting until you’ve actually got some experience.[/quote]
How can you say he doesn’t have experience?
HAVEN’T YOU SEEN HIS VIDS!?
He can punch a heavybag… get this… while it’s upside down!
You try doing that, you and your fancy as Thai fighting…
In Thai clinching they use something they call a “swan neck” grip with their hands. Kind of hard to explain in words, but basically you keep your wrist neutral and bend your fingers (thumb doesn’t really come into it because of the gloves, but as all grapplers know you don’t want to be gripping with your thumb anyway because it will get broken).
With that “swan neck” grip you can get a really good hold on their arms, shoulders, neck and head. Again, kind of hard to explain in words. When my shitty injuries have healed I will make some videos and post them to youtube.
[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
In Thai clinching they use something they call a “swan neck” grip with their hands. Kind of hard to explain in words, but basically you keep your wrist neutral and bend your fingers (thumb doesn’t really come into it because of the gloves, but as all grapplers know you don’t want to be gripping with your thumb anyway because it will get broken).
With that “swan neck” grip you can get a really good hold on their arms, shoulders, neck and head. Again, kind of hard to explain in words. When my shitty injuries have healed I will make some videos and post them to youtube.[/quote]
That would be fantastic. I am picturing a sort of Gable Grip, but any of the gloves/wraps really screw with my ability to do it.
Thank you in advance.
Regards,
Robert A
Yes the Gable grip is pretty much exactly what we use for body locks and some locks around the neck. You can do it with fight gloves no problem, in fact the leather seems to make it even stronger (unless the gloves are smeared with sweat/vaseline/Muay Thai liniment haha). Some of the larger sparring gloves do make it a bit awkward though.
[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
Yes the Gable grip is pretty much exactly what we use for body locks and some locks around the neck. You can do it with fight gloves no problem, in fact the leather seems to make it even stronger (unless the gloves are smeared with sweat/vaseline/Muay Thai liniment haha). Some of the larger sparring gloves do make it a bit awkward though.[/quote]
Maybe this is where I am getting the problems. It looks like real Thai gloves are different than the boxing gloves I have always been around. Not a lot, but subtle. When I see a picture of a pair of Twins gloves vs. any of the sparring gloves/competition gloves I have had they look to be cut a bit different.
I also have small hands so gloves in general do not do my grips any favors.
I would still appreciate videos on the clinch/grips/tie ups though. It is interesting to me, although I have never trained with an expectation of having gloves on when I needed to hit or clinch with someone.
Regards,
Robert A
i was a lumberjack for a couple of summers in bc (lol i know.)
it did get me in the best shape of my life, as far as aerobic work capacity goes. After i stopped though the work capacity left me, and i’m pretty dang sure it didn’t make me any better at fighting. I didn’t chop through sea’s of wood though, but i did chainsaw sea’s of trees. lol. (seriously though).
(for the record i’m not arguing with anyone, only relating my personal experience.)
Yes, this is the case. esp if you are using a maul on pieces of wood other men would put in a wood-splitter. I shattered an “unbreakable” double injected fiber-glass handled maul, within like 2 days on this wood. Unseasoned stuff that pretty much sprays me in the face. A lot of people here have admitted they haven’t split wood before. Well, it’s hard to say it won’t help when you don’t try it, but maybe you can appreciate the conditioning that may result in.
It’s not supposed to help you “fight better” just condition you to the demands of fighting better. So in an in-direct way it can.
I think a lot of people here take physical conditioning way too lightly. Not just strength, but anaerobic power (the ability to sprint at full speed or swing at full speed again and again and again) and recover fast to do it again, I doubt most people here even significantly train their cardio.
my heart beats at about 52bpm for example. I’m sure, none of this stuff will help a fighter though. For example (maybe you think this is hilarious too) I seen a vid of rocky marciano throwing this giant rock again and again. One day I decide to sprint to the beach, by the time I get there I’m about to puke, I immediately find some giant rock and pick it above my head and throw it (as far as I can, like marciano) for like 1km (or more) until I can barely move, then sprint back. Then work a sledge hammer for like 45 minutes.
That kind of physical conditioning, it will probably serve you well even though it’s not directly training skill or etc.
Yeah, it offends you that someone else values physical conditioning in a combat athlete, is your own so bad that it causes you to explode with vulgarity when other people even mention conditioning? I realize people who have skill but next to no physical conditioning like to think it would be effortless to beat down some guy who out-weights you, with better cardio, strength and anaerobic power/capacity.
I’m sure it’s no problem for you though, you just blast through all that with skill.
What really stuns me is that you think I’m the one whose arrogant. That you guys really think you’re so good as to out-fight people who are x3 more conditioned, or whatever. To just sit there and casually talk up a storm like that is impressive. How f*cking skilled do you think you are?
I know that if I had to fight some 230-240pound conditioned man, who could out-run me with a 20pound vest, who could out sledge hammer me with a 20pound sledge hammer, whose heart rate was 49 beats a minute, who could out-bike, out-jump, out-swim me, do say 400pound squat for 20-30 reps, I would take that shit 100% seriously. If I could avoid it, I wouldn’t fight them until I had built up to that level.
but you guys here, that would be no problem for you.
What makes you think people here don’t value physical conditioning? I certainly do, but I value being in condition to fight, not in condition to chop wood or squat things.
If we’re going to get into a dick measuring contest here, when I got my heart rate measured at a hospital in Thailand it was 42 bpm. I’m known for my stamina, my fighting style is to march forward on the offensive from the first bell to the last. Me, and all the other fighters in Thailand, get in fight shape by countless rounds on the pads, bags, sparring and clinching plus drills at the end of training such as 300 jumping knees on the heavy bag, 100 power kicks etc. Occasionally we do throw in some more general stuff such as hitting a tire with a sledgehammer, but it’s not a staple in our training. I think throwing in stuff like that now and then is good, to break up the monotony of training so people don’t get overtrained/bored, but it’s not in any way necessary to get in awesome fight shape.
[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Yeah, it offends you that someone else values physical conditioning in a combat athlete, is your own so bad that it causes you to explode with vulgarity when other people even mention conditioning? I realize people who have skill but next to no physical conditioning like to think it would be effortless to beat down some guy who out-weights you, with better cardio, strength and anaerobic power/capacity.
I’m sure it’s no problem for you though, you just blast through all that with skill.
What really stuns me is that you think I’m the one whose arrogant. That you guys really think you’re so good as to out-fight people who are x3 more conditioned, or whatever. To just sit there and casually talk up a storm like that is impressive. How f*cking skilled do you think you are?
I know that if I had to fight some 230-240pound conditioned man, who could out-run me with a 20pound vest, who could out sledge hammer me with a 20pound sledge hammer, whose heart rate was 49 beats a minute, who could out-bike, out-jump, out-swim me, do say 400pound squat for 20-30 reps, I would take that shit 100% seriously. If I could avoid it, I wouldn’t fight them until I had built up to that level.
but you guys here, that would be no problem for you. [/quote]
This is incorrect. Your body adapts to the stresses applied to it.
As far as anecdotal evidence goes, Lance Armstrong won the Tour de France 7 times;
A short while after hanging up his bike (lol), he decided to do a marathon.
The man with the supposed best ‘genetics ev4r!’ who was supposed to have an insane lactic threshold, VO2 max and the works, finished in the upper middle of the pack.
Not to say he did bad, but conditioning is very sport specific.
Also, unless you’re in a brawl where everyone swings wildly, fighting is about timing and technique.
Conditioning helps, but no one cares how fast you can run if your technique lets the guy blow past your guard.
The one thing that has always caused me to lose was technique. Whether the guy was taller, shorter, heavier or lighter rarely mattered. I have tooled 6’2 guys in wrestling and judo. I have handed the ass of guys with over 50 pounds on me, to them. I have thrown short guys and light guys across the room like nothing.
And there have been individuals with those characteristics (short, tall, heavy, light and every combination there of) who have done to me what Penn State does to little boys.
It’s technique, technique, technique, with a dash of sport specific conditioning.
I said don’t value enough, JonnyTMT, also a that kind of heart-rate is very impressive. Hope to get my own down to 45 by the end of winter. (a lot of hiking through snow, etc). Secondly in wrestling and Judo, how big a person is in comparison to you is irrelevant. How strong they are, how clumsy, etc. Look at the size of the quadriceps on you, and you’re telling me it’s all “skill skill skill”
(assuming you weren’t suffering some kind of illness or beat-down and that the heart-rate was natural)
As if you aren’t bullying people around with the strength of your legs legendary. You try wrestling with some guy who has 50pounds on you, and can squat 400pounds for some-thing like 20reps, deadlift 400, and bench-press 400, you tell me how that works out for you. If they are in any way conditioned on top of that strength, they’ll pick you up and slam you like a child.
I’ve seen one really strong guy, with a fraction of that strength I just described pick up and slam an former olympic wrestler, as if they were nothing. When this guy was still training and trying to stay in shape, teaching the sport to other people. Guy slammed him like he was nothing. The slammer wasn’t even that old, skilled, or conditioned. He was just a huge guy that happened to be way stronger, he didn’t like being slammed on his back, so he got back up, as this guy was trying to hold him down, got to his feet, and just man-handled and slammed this guy like a child.
needless to say, all the skill in the world didn’t help him get back on his feet, as he lie their gasping for air for like 3 minutes.
So, I don’t buy that if only because I’ve personally seen otherwise. unless you are seriously conditioned you don’t wrestle with people who are x2 your strength or fitness. It’s like Arthur Saxon said in the development of power, he never claimed to be a wrestler, because every-time he did he’d get this endless stream of challengers, convinced that their “science” could beat his strength, that their skill, would over-come him.
needless to say, the end result was usually saxon picking up some poor fool over his head and smashing them on the ground like a child. In wrestling skill does not beat other-worldly physical strength/conditioning. Saxon proved that again and again.
Though there were some Indian wrestlers at 180 who threw around old-time strong-men like they were nothing, chances are these 180pounders had discovered how to work their tendons/ligaments with Indian clubs or some-thing, and Saxon probably would have slammed them as well.
(though I am not saying a wrestler should train on weights more than another athlete in terms of squat, deadlift and benchpress. heavy-step-ups and etc work well though)
Which is why, when I grapple with my BJJ instructor, who I outweigh by 30lbs, I fuck him up…
oh wait no, I get raped.
You don’t train. Shut the fuck up.
Or continue trolling, lol, this is funny.
weight isn’t all that matters. I never said it was. hypertrophy and strength are two different things. muscular-mass and strength are only roughly correlated. the quality of the mass, the quality of the tendons/ligaments and etc do matter a lot, though.
some little guys have insane strength of the tendons. some little guys can do 2 finger pullups with 150pounds strapped across the waist. In one of the “molding a mighty X” series by George F Jowett he relates some massive strong-man with incredible feats of strength sitting down to arm wrestle this tiny man from montreal.
However when the strongman locked hands with this guy, allegedly it was like putting your hand in a vice-grip, and the effort it took to put this man’s arm down, was apparently other-wordly. That he could just barely do it. (the guy happened to be a full time lumberjack. just some tiny guy)
strength is a function of tendon/ligament strength a lot of the time. Look at the mighty atom for example. it doesn’t surprise me that someone 30pounds lighter could throw you around, if they were stronger. out-weighing someone is meaningless if they are stronger, faster and can generate more power than you. weight only means anything at all when it helps you accomplish those things.
Hell, even 30pounds of muscle is next to useless if it’s puffed up cotton candy. Some really muscular guys can’t run down the street without collapsing, others can. Look at Alexander Karelin, guy was conditioned like an animal in his prime.
I don’t professional fight yet. I do train, I never once claimed I didn’t train. Or that i didn’t train against other people. I also never said that sparring or training with other people (wrestling, clinching etc) doesn’t build insane strength. I know that it does.
“In explanation of the title I have chosen for my book I would say that, above all, I look for strength and power in a man. especially an athlete, quite regardless of his muscular development. The fact that a man may have full physical development, but disproportionate power and energy, has been proven to me so many times that in my book I propose to aim at and instill the value of genuine power, without any attempt to obtain large increase in the dimensions of the different muscles” - Arthur Saxon (from “the development of physical power”)
“My idea will be, and always has been, to leave the muscles to look after themselves, but I place a premium upon the possession of untiring energy, great stamina and vital power and a sound constitution” - Arthur Saxon (- the development of physical power)
“Genuine strength should include not only momentary strength, as proved by the ability to lift a heavy weight once, but also the far more valuable kind of strength known s strength for endurance. This means the ability, if you are a cyclist, to jump on your machine and ride 100miles at any time without undue fatigue, if a wrestler, to wrestle a hard bout for half an hour with a good man withou a rest, yet without becoming exhausted and reaching the limit of your strength” - Saxon
I am of that philosophy. Saxon could have thrown around men who out-weighed him by 100pounds. (“take care of the organs and the muscles will take care of themselves” is a common sentiment from old-time strongmen. turns out it’s true, assuming you are healthy and eat more than a starving child’s diet.
A lot of people here seem to think I am talking about only the ability to lift weights, or that I don’t think real strength doesn’t come from clinching or etc. I have trained with other people, I know that sparring, mantis mitt work, wrestling, clinching builds real functional strength for combat.
I have also been apparently the only one to work a maul for hours on end to say that It does increase your ability to clinch, to wrestle, to strike, even if all I do is training and don’t professionally fight yet. I still see that I have improved clinch/grapple strength, improved striking with real world people, in training.