Overtraining For Muay Thai?

Training
101

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
So you admit I have raw power? :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Listen, you turn your bodyweight into your punches - that’s a good start, because most people DON’T do that when they begin.

But honestly, if not for the end, I couldn’t even tell whether you were a southpaw or an orthodox fighter. I can’t see your feet and if/how they’re turning… it is an inadequate video, and you said yourself that it’s not something to go off of, right?

So post a good video showing the whole scene when you feel your fresh and let me wait until then. You look like you’re pushing a lot of straight lefts (jabs?) but some of your right hand body hooks look good taken as one shot punches - but then I see a total structural breakdown as soon as you throw them same hooks upstairs, so I’m not really sure what I’m looking at here.

102

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Just keep in mind most people can’t use a sledge hammer for 2 hours with a 20pound vest (most boxers probably can’t) let alone work the heavy-bag for an hour after the fact. What you are criticizing are punches a lot harder than those you yourself could throw after being pre-exhausted on a sledge hammer for hours.

have you used a sledge hammer extensively with a weighted vest to call me wrong about that? Save your honest feed-back for a video where I can hold up my arms. I only put that video up because I was called a troll and I said before hand the conditions under which it was shot.

But still thanks for the advice. I just hope you will be honest when I put up a fresh video. It’s like after you run too fast for too long, the neuro-muscular control of your legs start becoming harder and harder to control, like a drunken sailor. that was the point I was at there.[/quote]

I don’t give a fuck about weighted vests and sledehammers and whatever. You DON’T KNOW HOW TO BOX. None of that shit means anything if you WANT TO BE A FIGHTER.

I think you should either be a guy that’s on this board seeking advice so I can offer what I know, or just be a total cocksucker so I can dismiss you totally… This vacillating between thanking me and telling me how much better shape you’re in than me really has me scratching my head.

103

You have no idea what I know how to do or not. Just like I wouldn’t be in a position to judge your boxing after you have run a marathon. I made that clear when I posted, only did so when I was called a troll. I never said I was in better shape then you I don’t know how fast you can run, what your heart-rate is, how you can work the heavy-bag or etc. These are conclusions that you jump to, out of nowhere. Besides that you compliment my striking in some small ways, mention there’s structural break-downs and etc. I was exhausted and looking from the video I think that is apparent. I was called out, called a troll, it was the only video I had and then you proceed to rip into my form/technique which I pre-mentioned was trash because of exhaustion.

You should care about sledge-hammer or maul work. I can look on this forum for less then 1 minute before I can find you complaining about some fore-arm tendon issue that prevented you from working upper-cuts for some time. Not an issue when you work a sledge-hammer.

But yeah let’s not argue about this anymore. I’ll post a video sometime. Oh, and just one last thing about me not knowing how to box:

“All the time he’s boxing, he’s thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him” - Jack Dempsey

104

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
You have no idea what I know how to do or not. Just like I wouldn’t be in a position to judge your boxing after you have run a marathon. I made that clear when I posted, only did so when I was called a troll. I never said I was in better shape then you I don’t know how fast you can run, what your heart-rate is, how you can work the heavy-bag or etc. These are conclusions that you jump to, out of nowhere. Besides that you compliment my striking in some small ways, mention there’s structural break-downs and etc. I was exhausted and looking from the video I think that is apparent. I was called out, called a troll, it was the only video I had and then you proceed to rip into my form/technique which I pre-mentioned was trash because of exhaustion.

You should care about sledge-hammer or maul work. I can look on this forum for less then 1 minute before I can find you complaining about some fore-arm tendon issue that prevented you from working upper-cuts for some time. Not an issue when you work a sledge-hammer.

[/quote]

Whatever you say champ.

105

[quote]IronClaws wrote:

“All the time he’s boxing, he’s thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him” - Jack Dempsey

[/quote]

Ha.

And where was the part about some dude hitting a heavy bag in his mom’s attic thinking he was Jack Dempsey?

106

It’s not an attic it’s actually a fair-sized room I converted into a workout room that has a decent amount of equipment. It’s just cluttered in that picture. All the essentials anyway. Also why would it matter if I was in my mother’s attic? It’s a god-damn heavy-bag, you can hit it. It could be on the top of a mountain for all I care. (it’s a small gym though). You’re a class-act.

Anyway mining your log your shoulders dislocating, fore-arm problems and hands being messed up side-tracking your training and hopes of professionally fighting. sledge hammer work could fix that or at least could have prevented it.

107

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
To fighting-Irish, a lot of your comments only apply if I am as clumsy fighting fresh as I am exhausted. When I watch professional boxers, even super skilled ones, they start throwing sloppy near the end of 12 rounds. Hell, some just look disgraceful. So, I hope you’ll give some honest feedback positive or negative when I do put up a video of me fighting fresh. (I wouldn’t be running 6 miles and sledge-hammering the day of a fight. Or doing high rep squats the day BEFORE.) So again, try and wait until I post some-thing fresh, maybe tomorrow before you judged too harshly there.
[/quote]

No one is trying to judge you harshly. You however have done a fair bit of talking yourself up so their is a certain amount of doubt. I think you may just be a fan of hyperbole and that is part of it.

I am not trying to be overly critical, but it looked like you were pushing the majority of those punches. I see you doing quite a bit of damage if you could pin someone up against something solid, but much less otherwise. I could elaborate on why if you want, but I suspect you are here for the pissing match more than anything.

Didn’t I go into a tirade about kinetic energy in another thread? Anyone remember which one?

You are throwing in the term “strength of the swing” as a factor for determining kinetic energy? Force? Power? Should I read it as “the force of the swing is dependent on the weight of the object and its speed”? I am not trying to an ass. I do not want to put words in your mouth.

Very good point. I will note that many would qualify a lot of that work as “conditioning” since punching is explosive(or at least we want it to be) if would be possible to agree with the substance of this while saying “strength work is no where near as important as conditioning and explosive work”.

Are you doing this 3 hours of work non-stop, with breaks, in rounds? You may be a true anamaly with work capacity, or I am reading this wrong. I can do actual work with a shovel/sledge/pick ax for 4 hours, but it is not what I would call non-stop. More of a swing, pause, swing, pause rythm. This reads like you are swinging constantly for 2 hours, dropped the hammer, walked up to the bag, gloved up and started punching.

This really strains credibility. Twelve rounds of punching at the pace in that clip (3 minute rounds X twelve with 60 sec. rest) would fry pretty much anyones arms.

[quote]
edit
I actually do plan to hopefully one day compete in the olympics Zeno. I want some kind of gold medal in running or boxing. I have 7/7 days a week to train, why not? [/quote]

Well I would go with running. A four minute mile is a national level pace.

Regards,

Robert A

108

I am talking non-stop action for hours here. I am also no anomaly to do it. (well I do have genetic mutations found more commonly in some endurance athletes) but I could barely lift a 5pound hammer at first. That came with a lot of swinging and effort. That came from trying to build up to a 12hour day on a 16pound hammer.(that’s still a goal) There were days when I ended up puking for hours, waking up in the middle of the night shaking.(from putting in an 8 hour day) It didn’t come naturally or easily. Part of the reason being it has certain therapeutic value for me, I have no choice but to exercise a lot or suffer immensely.

What I mean was I swung with force on a sledge hammer beating a tire that under-neath of it had multiple hardwood pieces I had driven into the ground with a variety of swings without stopping for 2 hours. If you want to count the time it takes to guzzle an entire bottle of water that I do once then that’s a 30second break. The second I was done then I walked into the house and the time it took to strap up my wraps and gloves and worked an hour on the heavy-bag. what you’re looking at is the end of that.

Yeah I am pushing some of those punches because I don’t have the energy to do anything else. I would also like to know what you mean about damage if I could get someone cornered vs otherwise. I don’t view everything as a pissing match either.

12 rounds of punching like that isn’t that hard esp not that way. All I mean is that a sledge-hammer/weighted vest routine has given me great muscular endurance in my arms (I can punch for longer without my shoulders/back/arms getting worn down. abs too) sprinting obsessively helps with the anaerobic power/recovery. So I can bomb with full force long after most people would be exhausted. I think most strikers would improve with sledge work. (it also prevents a wide variety of injuries, helps stregthen the tendons etc)

So I know it’s fair to judge based on the only video I put up. but I was called out and I did say I was using a sledge-hammer for a long-time before-hand and I feel those criticizing my technique probably couldn’t lift an arm to take a swing after real sledge work. So… I’ll just have to wait until I have something better.

109

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
It’s not an attic it’s actually a fair-sized room I converted into a workout room that has a decent amount of equipment. It’s just cluttered in that picture. All the essentials anyway. Also why would it matter if I was in my mother’s attic? It’s a god-damn heavy-bag, you can hit it. It could be on the top of a mountain for all I care. (it’s a small gym though). You’re a class-act.

Anyway mining your log your shoulders dislocating, fore-arm problems and hands being messed up side-tracking your training and hopes of professionally fighting. sledge hammer work could fix that or at least could have prevented it.

[/quote]

Holy training secrets batman! So sledgehammer work not only prevents dislocated shoulders, it also cures tendinitis?

haha. How old are you man?

110

It strengthens and increases the durability/size of tendons making them less prone to damage and inflammation, so yeah… it would. If you started before it set in or managed to start training when the inflammation was low. Depending on the cause of dislocated shoulders as well, yeah I’d say swinging a giant hammer working your shoulder joint perpetually might increase the range of flexibility/strength of the shoulder. Assuming it wasn’t an arthritic mess to begin with.

it stretches and works the tendons as well. so, yeah. Also dangerous to use and could make it worse but levering/sledge hammer work can help prevent back injuries and strengthen tendons. Though everyone’s different.

Punching the heavy-bag at force creates pretty destructive forces on your body. You can expect your tendons and joints to start crying out to start ripping under the strain outside of a hardcore conditioning regime. (Btw, my apologizes if those injuries were gotten outside of fighting or training. like in a car crash, or fall from a horse, etc)

but if you got those fighting or training and you’re telling people they shouldn’t strength train. Kind of irresponsible.

111

[quote]IronClaws wrote:

Part of the reason being it has certain therapeutic value for me, I have no choice but to exercise a lot or suffer immensely.
[/quote]
Could you elaborate on this?

A slower punch/a pushing punch tends to shove the target out of the way. If you trap someone against ropes or a wall then there is no where for them to go. They cannot ride/roll with the blow. It can be the difference between getting rocked back on your heels from a blow vs coughing blood.

[quote]
12 rounds of punching like that isn’t that hard esp not that way. All I mean is that a sledge-hammer/weighted vest routine has given me great muscular endurance in my arms (I can punch for longer without my shoulders/back/arms getting worn down. abs too) sprinting obsessively helps with the anaerobic power/recovery. So I can bomb with full force long after most people would be exhausted.[/quote]
It certainly appears reads that way. Just for the record, pro’s can “punch themselves out” in the span of a round or less. You are basically claiming to do 12 rounds of the same activity, minus the pressure of the fight or I am simply not tracking. Hitting the bag the way you do the pounding on your joints has to be severe as well. Are you sure there is no hyperbole here? The clip was a couple of flurries. Are you claiming a pace of 10 sec flurry, 2 sec off for 12 consecutive 3 minute rounds?

Agreed, and many use them. Wood chopping was the old North American staple, but the Cubans were known for sledge and tire drills. However, I have only seen, read about, or heard of the work being done at a natural pace (chopping wood) or at a very forced pace for rounds (usually the case with sledge hammers). It seems like you are going “as fast as possible” for 2 hours. That is pretty damn unusual.

All of this with 1 year of training and an occupation of sledge hammer specialist. Can you understand the skepticism?

Regards,

Robert A

112

“It certainly appears reads that way. Just for the record, pro’s can “punch themselves out” in the span of a round or less. You are basically claiming to do 12 rounds of the same activity, minus the pressure of the fight or I am simply not tracking. Hitting the bag the way you do the pounding on your joints has to be severe as well. Are you sure there is no hyperbole here? The clip was a couple of flurries. Are you claiming a pace of 10 sec flurry, 2 sec off for 12 consecutive 3 minute rounds?”

Pros can punch themselves out in a round or less. While I might be a sloppy fighter compared to a pro, my physical conditioning isn’t sloppy. I am a better runner, I am a better sprinter than most “pros” I train my anaerobic system with a sledge hammer and through endless running in a way that most pros don’t. (I can even run faster than a normal person with a 50pound pack, so…)

I can do 12 minute rounds of what you see in that video because #1 (it’s not as hard and as fast as I can punch, not even close) and 2, because I schedule my running to reflect the 3-1 rest anaerobic activity/rest ratio of boxing. Sprinting for 3 minutes (for as long and as hard as you can in that 3 minutes) and rinse and repeat until you get to 12. (not that you will actually accomplish the 3 minutes, 12 times, as if you were FRESH) but the more you train it the better you get at it. There’s massive turn over to sprint intervals and anaerobic power/endurance for boxing.

But no I cannot maintain my highest anaerobic output for 3 minutes repeatedly for 12 rounds. I can do it well into the later rounds though. I have an amazing anaerobic capacity, threshold and recovery due to sprinting/running obsessively. I am talking about running every-day, rain or shine. When I go out and run in -15 and -20, in weather so cold that my eyes and nose start to freeze when I take off a face-mask for 5 seconds, that’s the conditions in which I push my body to the limit. All year training with no life outside of it.

113

Everyone else is being so nice here, so I’ll keep this short.

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
So you admit I have raw power? :slight_smile:
[/quote]
No you suck dude.

114

Guy sounds delusional.

Is clearly a newbie with passion, but one of those that thinks he knows shit. Like the guy that’s been lifting and reading articles on TN for a year, and thinks he is qualified to critique some big guy’s training.

Dude, I mean you no malice, but you need to get a clue. You have no real experience, and you’re on here arguing with what are essentially your betters, while talking yourself up.

Stop.

115

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
I also wouldn’t take advice from a fighter who claimed to throw around power-lifters in the clinch at 150pounds unless they were some kind of lumber-jack or professional strong-man. But that’s just me.
[/quote]

You don’t have to take my word for it. Go on facebook and add Brian Ebersole, Mark Hunt, Roger Huerta or any of the other guys who I’ve trained with and ask them if what I say is true. And by the way, there are hundreds if not thousands of small Muay Thai fighters who can throw around big power lifters. I’m far from a genetic freak, it just comes from a lot of hard training with great trainers and training partners.

Your training video was less than impressive. But keep working hard and get more experience and I’m sure with your passion you will do well.

116

What the fuck have I been reading??? What is this Ironclaws bullshit??? Pushed punches on a low heavy-bag equals “bone-crushing” strength now? I feel like I’ve been robbed of my time in here. Aside from Xen, Robert, Jonny, and Irish, and a couple of others, this has soured my mood immensely.

Lift, don’t lift, do you. I lift, and when my braces are off, and my knee gets better, I’ll be fighting again. That means my lifting will no longer be a priority, as my fight training will be #1. Sledgehammer work is not a priority, although it is enjoyable.

I’m not going to add anything informative, as it’s been covered ad nauseum in here, but please, folks, do try to ignore that idiot.

117

pushed punches because I was exhausted which I mentioned before I posted the video. (more exhausted in some ways than in any real match). I wasn’t using the falling step or line of power in any of the video. I’d love to see other people post some videos of their own heavy-bag work or etc as well. (it’s all I had. I only video-tape at the end of a workout because I like to concentrate on the workout. not looking good for the camera.) I will have some-thing better up today.

Besides that any advice on not “pushing a punch” when exhausted? I imagine my stamina and etc would hold up differently if I was taking intense blows to the body. I know a punch doesn’t involve “pushing” at an opponent and instead you want to draw it from the legs/abs, direct that through the powerful muscles of the back through the “line of power” etc at great speed, try and minimize contact time (while at the same time trying to “penetrate through a target”) and get good range and etc but in times of intense physical exhaustion, when you feel you should be sitting on the floor, any advice for throwing proper punches then? It’s like I can’t whip my body into motion anymore or move at speed or even generate enough quick ab rotation to whip my arm out.

118

Dude, you just need to go a boxing gym and get a coach. You can’t learn how to fight from books, videos and internet forums.

119

Being tired is not an excuse to lose form. It has been drilled into me, that when i fight, no matter how tired I am…I am still feinting, using my footwork, keeping my guard up. These require minimal energy if you dont have the wind to throw all out combinations, but they make you APPEAR that you are not fatigued, and keep you safe from harm.

You ARE pushing your punches, bigtime. Punches and kicks should have a snap to them that leaves a dent in the bag and you should immediatley be back into your fighting position to throw again or block.

You remind me of a friend I used to workout with. The dude would work the bag non stop…throwing brutal and I mean brutal hooks. When we sparred, he would miss left and right, had no sense of distance and I knocked him out with a fairly easy right cross that he stepped into. There is so much more to “POWER” than simply the physical attribute. What good is your physical power if I side step your slow ass punch and put a left hook right on your chin because your hand is down. You will be out. Your hands were down in EVERY punch and your chin was up.

Strength training IS important for a fighter, but there are many ways to achieve it… pushups, chopping wood, strength training etc.

Being stronger helps, definitley. There is a point of diminishing returns though. I could kick very well at a 400lb squat. The time it took me to get to a 500lb squat did not correlate to the same increases in kicking power.

Be strong, but realize you only need to be strong enough. And EVERYONE from the ammie down to the Pro should ALWAYS be doing as much technique as possible. Case in Point, Frankie Edgar. He works his boxing tirelessly and it shows.

If you have a schedule of competitions that is predictable , ie Olympic taekwondo gets far more serious in the spring and summer…then you can prioritize strength training more in the down months and come back faster and stronger.

MMA, boxing (pro and amature), kickboxing…from my experience (and I have only done boxing and kickboxing) is erratic enough in your fight schedule that you cant really focus on one thing for an extended period of time.

I really dont see what else there is to it. OP can spend a Minimal amount of time in the weight room 2x a week for 30 minutes or so… work stuff like sledgehammers and sled a few other days and spend 2-3 hours a day working tech and conditioning. Problem f’ing solved. A good 3 hrs a day of training can be done even by people with full time jobs…

when I was competing alot more last year i would leave work and

  1. lift or condition for 30 minutes before class…bare bones…
  2. class for an hour working on basics, sparring, drills…etc
    3)workout after class doing more intense sparring, drills, pads for 30min-1hr.

3-5 times a week I ran in the mornings for 40 minutes…depending on how close a tournament was. Total time per workout day 2.5-3.5 hours. Working 40 hrs a week. Yes I had no life, but if you want to be GOOD and WIN, you gotta make sacrifices. No Part time Champions ANYWHERE

120

One additional point. I dont care how good anyone thinks they are…if you havent tested yourself in the ring against someone else that wants to take your head off. Shut THE FUCK UP AND LISTEN TO THOSE WHO HAVE.