Overambitious guy seeks guidance

Bigger Stronger Leaner Beginners
1

Im a 33-year-old male rock climber, jiu jitsu hobbyist, and lifter. Ten years climbing, seven years lifting, one year training jiu jitsu. I’m 6 feet and currently weigh 155. To get a better idea of my current condition, check out my v-diet thread here. At the bottom you’ll find a current photo.

I’d like to build a bit of muscle over the next six months, which I’ve never prioritized in the past. I’ve spent plenty of time lifting but have been more focused on strength. Now here’s where the overambition comes into play…this is what my weekly training schedule will be.

Monday: climb
Tuesday: jiu jitsu
Wednesday: lift
Thursday: climb
Friday: rest
Saturday: climb
Sunday: jiu jitsu followed by lifting

Obviously this is far, far from an ideal split for hypertrophy. I’m okay with that and I know not to expect quick gains. I also know the importance that diet will play, especially with the amount of activity I do throughout a week. Fortunately I have a good sense of what maintenance is for me, so I’ll gradually add calories, track weight, and re-adjust.

I’m curious to hear how y’all might make the best of the two weekly lifting sessions to attain some modest gains over the next six months. One thing I know for sure is I’ll have to adjust how I’m lifting (slow eccentric, big stretch at the bottom, etc.) which will take a while for me to figure out. I also have no idea how that will impact the volume I can tolerate, since I won’t be pushing each set as hard, especially neurologically. I imagine I’ll be able to do more total volume than I currently do, but again, this is new territory for me, so I have a lot to learn.

Any insight is appreciated!

2

Given you are training combat sports, I’d consider taking on the Tactical Barbell Mass protocol “Fighter” program. It’s 2 days a week of lifting, with a third day that includes the deadlift, and is specifically oriented toward gaining mass.

Alternatively, I’d take Dan John’s “Mass Made Simple” program, transition it from a 6 week program to a 7 week program by training it twice a week, cut out the upper body work and only include the complexes and squats. I’d consider the climbing as my “upper body work” for the program.

And then I would eat every meal as though I were a death row inmate being served my last meal.

6 Likes
3

Funny how I was going to suggest the exact two programs @T3hPwnisher already suggested, but I’ll add a third: Dan John’s minimalist training program. It’s a twice-a-week approach that I’ve used when training for half marathons or just was strength training less for whatever reason. Like pretty much all Dan John stuff, it’s highly effective and well thought out.

3 Likes
4

I’ve run MMS previously and climb twice a week to a moonboard V5 level, and i don’t think i would have enough recovery capacity to try this approach.

However, if i were to take this approach, there’s a couple of modifications i would make: don’t cut out the benching parts of the MMS workouts. Antagonist training is great for climbers and the soreness from benching is unlikely to hinder your climbing too drastically except on really compression based routes.

I would also make sure you’re doing a whole lot of mobility work to make sure you maintain everything you’ve built over the years climbing. All that squatting has a habit of making you walk like a tin man, which is funny when you’re just walking, but is going to be seriously limiting on the wall.

Lastly: if you take this approach, your recovery is going to have to be absolutely dialed in. As i said above, i don’t think i would have enough dials to leverage for this amount of training, but i’d love to see the log of someone who would try it.

1 Like
5

Agree with @dagill2 in that you include the upper body lifts regardless of the program you decide on.

6

I feel its worth appreciating that, if you do the complexes in MMS, you WILL do upper body lifts…

1 Like
7

Just to clarify: i wouldn’t do the overhead work, or the upper back work with that layout, only the bench as it interferes with climbing far, far less.

This is only what i would do though, i’m more than happy to be proven wrong.

1 Like
8

I’m not involved in martial arts, so I sent a friend of mine your post and this was their advice.

“So personally, we do 2 hours (in a typically 85 degree dojo :hot_face:) 2-3 times a week, and I only do 1 extra strength training day per week and just do light cardio (so walking lol) and stretch in between. That’s when I’m at my healthiest. The men do 2 strength days plus the 2-3 days of jujitsu. But every dojo is different on pace and intensity (we are psycho), and a bjj style that’s focused on grappling would be a huge difference from our version of Japanese jujitsu where there’s several hundred reps on throwing/being thrown and the cardio of just the getting up over and over again. Chest monitor would be good to gage that before committing.”

9

Thank you all! I like the idea of trying Mass Made Simple, mostly because it sounds awful :slight_smile: a couple questions about it:

-It sounds like it’s only supposed to be run for six weeks, is that correct? There’s a part of the T-nation article where Dan mentions that, at least with regards to the squatting aspect. (I don’t think I can run MMS for a super long time in addition to everything I do, but is six weeks enough?)
-Also regarding squatting, I think I understand correctly that once a week I’ll shoot for two top sets of five-ish reps with the goal of increasing weight every week, and the other session will be two sets at a fixed weight, shooting for more reps each week. Do I have that right? And would it make sense to do the heavy squat day on the day I’m already front squatting, or should that be the high-rep day, or does it not really matter?

10

This is why I mentioned changing it to a 7 week program. You’ll definitely want to buy the book: the program in the article is quite different from what Dan put into the book.

2 Likes
11

I’ve heard Dan refer to the article version as Mass Made Simple Lite. I’ve mever run it, so i couldn’t comment

1 Like
12

This might not be super popular, but I would say to run something similar to a Jordan Peters full body program. It’s low volume and definitely a Hypertrophy-oriented program. The low training volume should help make recovery more manageable for your other endeavors. It’s not too far off from how I trained when I was wrestling 6-7 days a week in high school and college.

It’ll be very important that you eat like an absolute horse and do not skip meals. Your calories will make the amount you were eating on the V-Diet look like a water-fast. I can’t stress enough how important this part of the equation is.

I train most of my clients in a similar manner on an upper/Lower Split 4 days a week, which is basically the same as full body done twice a week. A good number of my clients train jiu jitsu 3-4 days a week and these guys are making awesome progress, so I don’t think you’re too overzealous at all. In fact, I’m happy for you that you’re managing to emphasize some mass gain with your active lifestyle! If you have questions about how I’d set this up, I’d be happy to write something out for you!

1 Like
13

I can second this. The two MMS programs are worlds apart. Book version > online version.

1 Like
14

Are you referring to the TBJP program promoted by @OTay?

IMG_8237
IMG_8237828×1792 245 KB

15

Similar, but I would definitely pull back on the amount of exercises

16

This update is very late, but I ran MMS for six weeks. I got the book and (in hindsight, wisely) chose the T-nation article version. More on “wisely” later.

Each 2xweek session looked like this.
A. 3x8 kettlebell complex (overhead press, clean, front squat, row, deadlift)
B1. Front squat 5/3/1 one session, deadlift other session
B2. Bench 5/3/1 one session, overhead press other session
C. 2-3 sets of high-rep squat work

My results:
-I was able to increase weights on all exercises, even the complexes
-My weight went from 157-165. I started at the leanest I’ve ever been, so some of that is just gaining weight back as I was previously sitting at 160, but I’m shocked at how much muscle I added in only six weeks.
-I’m visibly more muscular, especially in my triceps, quads and glutes, which makes sense considering the exercises.

What I learned:
-You NEED to have great conditioning for this program to work well. I started right after a jiu jitsu competition and my conditioning was insanely high. This allowed me to really, really push things hard. I think I would’ve gotten decent results otherwise, but not nearly as good.
-Kettlebell complexes are an awesome and time-efficient warm-up which I will use going forward.
-Squatting heavy weights for high reps sure is something. I tip my cap to anyone who does it on a regular basis. It’s psychologically challenging as much as it is physically challenging. During this program, I cried mid-set, drooled mid-set, came within inches of puking post-set, and had to sit for 15 minutes post-workout before I was able to walk out and drive home. Again, I’m so impressed with people who push it with squats. I have tremendously more respect for those folks now.
-Squatting is great for building size, especially with how hungry it makes you.

I haven’t done any “basic barbell”-type stuff in a few years. I’ve been doing more light, feel-good, full-ROM stuff, which has been very helpful for sport, especially since mobility has always been a weakness for me. Getting back to moving heavy barbells was simply awesome. I’m stoked at how strong I was even at the start of the program, and I look forward to incorporating it in the future.

Now here’s something that will surprise absolutely nobody: this shit almost KILLED ME! Following this program in addition to everything else I do was absolutely bonkers. My hip flexors alone were so pissed by the end of the six-week period. I’m glad I did it, and I might even do it again, but six weeks was sufficient. I couldn’t possibly do this long-term.

Definitely some great learning from this one, as well as some mental toughness training. At the moment I’m still lifting full body twice a week, but I’ve switched to more of a bodybuilding-style tempo, and I’m back to more of that full-ROM stuff, replacing barbell squats with ATG split squats, replacing bench presses with dips, etc. I’ve realized that I can and should work in some heavier lifting and high-rep squats, but it can’t be all I do. It’s fun and beneficial for me to sometimes be a meathead :slight_smile:

5 Likes
17

Bravo. I know @T3hPwnisher will be thrilled you not only had excellent results but also learned in the process. Well done.

Would you be willing to be more specific about your sessions? Rereading the article (for probably the fifth time) I still can’t grasp what DJ is explaining. I don’t have it memorized but the article says something like 185x25x20. 20 sets of 25? Is that correct?

18

Enjoyed the write up. As someone who’s outside of the gym sport burns calories like a furnace I can relate to the desire to pack on some size whilst still being able to recover for their respective sport. Super Squats (another all body program centred around high rep squats) served me well, but I couldn’t afford to focus on anything else for the six weeks, which I agree is an appropriate period of time.

19

Fantastic to see someone come for advice, take the advice, see the benefits of actually follow the advice and then coming back to give feedback.

Awesome write up.

20

185x25x20 is a rep count, so one set of 25, and one set of 20.

For the squats, I did the two-week, ease into it approach that he lays out in the article. After that, I’d usually do one or two warm-up sets, depending on if I’d front squatted already, and two really hard sets. I zeroed in on doing 135 once a week, and 165 once a week. This isn’t the weight he outlines, but there’s no way I’m strong enough to follow those weights! This allowed me to keep the reps high each day, which I figured would be better than going heavy once a week and high reps once a week. This choice was in part to ensure I got more high-rep sets, and also because I hadn’t barbell back-squatted in years, and I’ve never been very good at them, so I didn’t want to push heavy sets with poor form. (Turns out I’m more competent at squats than I used to be though, so that’s awesome!)

I’d always fight to beat my previous rep count. Here are my starting and finishing numbers.
135 for 2x20 > 135 for 2x30
165 for 2x15 > 165 for 2x20

1 Like