Well, I don’t really have a scripture backing for that other than what Luke says, that she was blessed among women and full of grace.[/quote]
I agree with almost everything you said. Well God told Abraham he would be blessed. Mary said, “she would be called blessed.” I don’t think that being called blessed is a right to create a mass around her, or a way to cleanse us from our sins (After confession you have to say x number of Hail Mary’s).
With Luke’s saying you could interpret that all of God’s adopted children could be said to be blessed and full of grace. I know he said women, but in a way because of what Jesus did during Passion Week and rising from the dead on Easter we are all blessed and full of grace, because that is what Christ did for us. The entire Bible points to Jesus and not Mary. We should concentrate on Jesus. IMO when you spend time asking Mary or any Saint to pray for you it taking the focus away from Jesus. He made it so, with his crucifixion and resurrection, we can go straight to God. The purpose of the veil in the temple being torn is that we can approach God directly. We no longer need an intermediary to approach the throne of Grace or Holy of Holies. A lot of Protestants and Evangelicals do not understand why Catholics talk to Mary and the Saints because of this. I will say if Revelation is correct and “the dead in Christ” are actually dead right now then there is something wrong with the practice of talking to Mary and the Saints.
You mentioned in another post about Abraham and Moses being dead. If Revelation is correct then yes, I would say they are dead and not in heaven. The issue of time in God’s mind is a lot different from ours. If you look at the 6000 year history of the Bible in the grand scheme of things to eternity it is just a second. To the person who is dead, death is just like going to sleep and all of a sudden waking up 8 hours later (I do not like that type of sleep by the way). The only two people in scripture that have never died, other than Jesus, but he died and was resurrected, are Elijah and I think Enoch (it is in Genesis. It mentions that someone walked with God all the days of their life, and then was taken up to heaven. Most other characters in Genesis say they lived x number or years and died. This one did not).
Pat wrote:
“Her gentle leadership to Christ is her ‘job’. I am not certain she rejects the attention in so long as it is appropriately placed. She is a motherly advocate, a gentle hand in extracting God’s mercy on those who don’t deserve it necessarily.”
sorry, those quotes were getting crazy long.
Pat, as usual you have got me deeply thinking. Like dmaddox, I have never understood the Catholic Mary thing.
Your quote above kind of confuses me… When Christ ascended to heaven, didnt he take his place on his throne, so to speak? Why would the creator of all things need an advocate or a gentle hand to guide his all-knowing mercy? Especially one of his own creations
I will say, as I think I usually do with you, that this isnt confrontational. I usually come off as a major dick on the interwebs. Most of the time it is probably on purpose, but that is not my intention on this post.
all that aside- i freakin LOVE everything i hear about this new guy. I married a catholic family and they are all stoked, as well. Evidently the pomp and circumstance and materialism of the church has gotten on their nerves. Evidently the archdiocese has an entourage at all times. When he is described to me I picture a stereotypical king with ppl waiving palm leaves to keep him cool and snapping at his servants to bring his wine and wipe his brow.
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:<< I married a catholic family >>>[/quote]That’s not allowed in Catholicism pal. Pick one of the girls will ya please?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Elijah is one of my favorite homeboys. I have one who is alive today as well actually. Yes, that was Enoch D.[/quote]A homeboy or an Elijah? hahahaha[/quote]Both. A homeboy, well, close brother in the Lord named Elijah.
I would say this even if it were a protestant, but I’d be a bit more impressed if it weren’t on TV. [quote]5-"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. [/quote] Jesus speaking in Matthew 6:5 The most God honoring acts of righteousness are ones few know about until the judgement.
I have done this myself. I spent a week in Ecuador washing the feet of children, and giving them a new pair of socks and shoes. I did this with an organization called Happy Feet International. The feet that the Pope is kissing are much nicer than the feet I got to wash.
Just imagine wearing rubber boots that are 3-4 sizes too small for a couple of years. The feet are all mangled up. That is what I got to see. It is a sign of humility no doubt, but that is what Christians are suppose to do. I really hope the RCC is making a change towards being Christ like.
I have done this myself. I spent a week in Ecuador washing the feet of children, and giving them a new pair of socks and shoes. I did this with an organization called Happy Feet International. The feet that the Pope is kissing are much nicer than the feet I got to wash.
Just imagine wearing rubber boots that are 3-4 sizes too small for a couple of years. The feet are all mangled up. That is what I got to see. It is a sign of humility no doubt, but that is what Christians are suppose to do. I really hope the RCC is making a change towards being Christ like.
[/quote]
I agree, things could have been much worse but the gesture was right. I guess there are some within the Church who find what he did demeaning, since he washed womens feet as well?
I really hope the RCC is making a change towards being Christ like.
[/quote]
If anything the RCC has the most legitimate claim to Christianity among all of the modern denominations. Explain to me how Evangelicalism beats out the institution that has done more in the name of Christ throughout history than the other denominations combined.
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
Pat wrote:
“Her gentle leadership to Christ is her ‘job’. I am not certain she rejects the attention in so long as it is appropriately placed. She is a motherly advocate, a gentle hand in extracting God’s mercy on those who don’t deserve it necessarily.”
sorry, those quotes were getting crazy long.
Pat, as usual you have got me deeply thinking. Like dmaddox, I have never understood the Catholic Mary thing.
Your quote above kind of confuses me… When Christ ascended to heaven, didnt he take his place on his throne, so to speak? Why would the creator of all things need an advocate or a gentle hand to guide his all-knowing mercy? Especially one of his own creations
[/quote]
I appreciate that.
You don’t have to go to Mary, you can go strait to God, of course. For some, Mary and as the gentle mother of God is for people who are, for lack of a better word afraid or intimidate by a just God. A matronly advocate gives them a path to God, when you feel unworthy to talk to God. That she will guide you to Christ in a gentle way for the humble unworthy creatures of His creation. Mary is worthy, and God listens to her when one doesn’t feel that are not worthy to go to Him. That’s kind of the essence of Marian devotion. Like I said in the past, if religious faith didn’t work, people wouldn’t do it. Likewise if Marian devotion didn’t work, people wouldn’t do it. And it does, from my personal experience work. The Blessed Mother has advocated for me and answered my cries for help. So the religious experience is reciprocal. I can tell you this, if it was not for Mary, I would not have read the Bible. Her advocacy led me to that calling and I am forever greatful to her for that.
I didn’t take it as such. Honest questions and honest answers. I am pleased to do it. I enjoy these converstaions.
Me too. I am greatful for his leadership in to a poverty of spirit. It’s the right direction to go. We don’t need the pomp, we have Christ. That’s the right message it’s the right leadership. It’s been overlooked for far to long.
Well, I don’t really have a scripture backing for that other than what Luke says, that she was blessed among women and full of grace.[/quote]
I agree with almost everything you said. Well God told Abraham he would be blessed. Mary said, “she would be called blessed.” I don’t think that being called blessed is a right to create a mass around her, or a way to cleanse us from our sins (After confession you have to say x number of Hail Mary’s).
With Luke’s saying you could interpret that all of God’s adopted children could be said to be blessed and full of grace. I know he said women, but in a way because of what Jesus did during Passion Week and rising from the dead on Easter we are all blessed and full of grace, because that is what Christ did for us. The entire Bible points to Jesus and not Mary. We should concentrate on Jesus. IMO when you spend time asking Mary or any Saint to pray for you it taking the focus away from Jesus. He made it so, with his crucifixion and resurrection, we can go straight to God. The purpose of the veil in the temple being torn is that we can approach God directly. We no longer need an intermediary to approach the throne of Grace or Holy of Holies. A lot of Protestants and Evangelicals do not understand why Catholics talk to Mary and the Saints because of this. I will say if Revelation is correct and “the dead in Christ” are actually dead right now then there is something wrong with the practice of talking to Mary and the Saints.
You mentioned in another post about Abraham and Moses being dead. If Revelation is correct then yes, I would say they are dead and not in heaven. The issue of time in God’s mind is a lot different from ours. If you look at the 6000 year history of the Bible in the grand scheme of things to eternity it is just a second. To the person who is dead, death is just like going to sleep and all of a sudden waking up 8 hours later (I do not like that type of sleep by the way). The only two people in scripture that have never died, other than Jesus, but he died and was resurrected, are Elijah and I think Enoch (it is in Genesis. It mentions that someone walked with God all the days of their life, and then was taken up to heaven. Most other characters in Genesis say they lived x number or years and died. This one did not).[/quote]
Hey D, I will get back to you… otta time. I am very interested in this discussion.
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
Pat wrote:
“Her gentle leadership to Christ is her ‘job’. I am not certain she rejects the attention in so long as it is appropriately placed. She is a motherly advocate, a gentle hand in extracting God’s mercy on those who don’t deserve it necessarily.”
sorry, those quotes were getting crazy long.
Pat, as usual you have got me deeply thinking. Like dmaddox, I have never understood the Catholic Mary thing.
Your quote above kind of confuses me… When Christ ascended to heaven, didnt he take his place on his throne, so to speak? Why would the creator of all things need an advocate or a gentle hand to guide his all-knowing mercy? Especially one of his own creations
[/quote]
I appreciate that.
You don’t have to go to Mary, you can go strait to God, of course. For some, Mary and as the gentle mother of God is for people who are, for lack of a better word afraid or intimidate by a just God. A matronly advocate gives them a path to God, when you feel unworthy to talk to God. That she will guide you to Christ in a gentle way for the humble unworthy creatures of His creation. Mary is worthy, and God listens to her when one doesn’t feel that are not worthy to go to Him. That’s kind of the essence of Marian devotion. Like I said in the past, if religious faith didn’t work, people wouldn’t do it. Likewise if Marian devotion didn’t work, people wouldn’t do it. And it does, from my personal experience work. The Blessed Mother has advocated for me and answered my cries for help. So the religious experience is reciprocal. I can tell you this, if it was not for Mary, I would not have read the Bible. Her advocacy led me to that calling and I am forever greatful to her for that.
I didn’t take it as such. Honest questions and honest answers. I am pleased to do it. I enjoy these converstaions.
Me too. I am greatful for his leadership in to a poverty of spirit. It’s the right direction to go. We don’t need the pomp, we have Christ. That’s the right message it’s the right leadership. It’s been overlooked for far to long.[/quote]
Well, Pat, you have ended my wondering. That is a phenomenal explanation, and as usual straight from the heart. I greatly appreciate your insight.
I really hope the RCC is making a change towards being Christ like.
[/quote]
If anything the RCC has the most legitimate claim to Christianity among all of the modern denominations. Explain to me how Evangelicalism beats out the institution that has done more in the name of Christ throughout history than the other denominations combined.[/quote]
What is your definition of legitimate claim? How do you calculate doing more in the name of Christ? What is an addition and what is a subtraction.
I never said that the RCC has no claim to Christianity. I just hope they are getting back to the basics. Lutherans have the same claim to Christianity as the Catholics. The Protestants also have a claim. The Evangelicals have a claim to Christ.
This is why I have asked the question, Who is the Church? Is it only the Roman Catholic Church?
Well, I don’t really have a scripture backing for that other than what Luke says, that she was blessed among women and full of grace.[/quote]
I agree with almost everything you said. Well God told Abraham he would be blessed. Mary said, “she would be called blessed.” I don’t think that being called blessed is a right to create a mass around her, or a way to cleanse us from our sins (After confession you have to say x number of Hail Mary’s).
[/quote]
That’s just penance, the confessional is where the absolution through Christ takes place. Mary cannot forgive sins or pardon anybody. Like I said, it’s honor to His mother. Something I believe Christ himself takes very seriously since he saw fit to honor His mother. And someone Jesus himself honored should be honored.
The penance part is like a ‘payment’ of prayer. It’s prayer for the grace to sin no more.
No the Hail Mary, is comprised of scripture if you look at it. So really, to pray a Hail Mary is to pray scripture. It’s a combination of the the Angel Gabriel’s words and the Cantile of Mary that appear in Luke’s gospel.
What’s interesting about Luke, if what we know is correct, that he was St. Paul’s disciple. And St. Paul wouldn’t have as intimate knowledge of Mary as the other apostles who knew and interacted with her, yet he wrote of her the most.
You never have to invoke an intermediary. Nobody claims that. What they can do for you, which you cannot do for yourself is two fold. They can pray for you constantly, present your petitions before God perpetually and pray perfectly, in a sinless state as one who knows God perfectly because they have already been perfected through Christ.
The other thing is it works… Don’t believe me? Invoke St. Anthony next time you lose something. It sounds hokey, but it’s creepy how well it works. Every time, he will put the thing right in front of your face. I cannot count how many times this has worked for me.
So no, you can always go strait to God, but as you can ask other’s in life for prayer, you can ask those already perfected in Christ for perpetual and perfect prayer. So the saint’s or Mary, can petition the Lord, like no flesh and blood can. Perfect, unpolluted by sin and perpetual prayer. That’s what they can do for you. That’s what they can do for you, that nobody else can. That’s why they are invoked. And if it did not yield results, people wouldn’t do it. Such behavior would have expired long ago.
[quote]
You mentioned in another post about Abraham and Moses being dead. If Revelation is correct then yes, I would say they are dead and not in heaven. The issue of time in God’s mind is a lot different from ours. If you look at the 6000 year history of the Bible in the grand scheme of things to eternity it is just a second. To the person who is dead, death is just like going to sleep and all of a sudden waking up 8 hours later (I do not like that type of sleep by the way). The only two people in scripture that have never died, other than Jesus, but he died and was resurrected, are Elijah and I think Enoch (it is in Genesis. It mentions that someone walked with God all the days of their life, and then was taken up to heaven. Most other characters in Genesis say they lived x number or years and died. This one did not).[/quote]
I would say if your interpretation of Revelation is correct. For even in Revelation, the righteous ones who died in Christ are waiting but not dead as God gave them robes to tie them over a little longer. My problem is that all of Revelation is so symbolic, it’s really difficult to interprate it correctly. It could mean a lot of different things and a lot of explanations ‘fit’ but may not be correct.
Jesus said they are ‘living’ in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Further, during the transformation, did not Elijah and Moses appear to Him? The dead cannot do that. Moses did in fact die as did Abraham as did Issac.
Well, I don’t really have a scripture backing for that other than what Luke says, that she was blessed among women and full of grace.[/quote]
I agree with almost everything you said. Well God told Abraham he would be blessed. Mary said, “she would be called blessed.” I don’t think that being called blessed is a right to create a mass around her, or a way to cleanse us from our sins (After confession you have to say x number of Hail Mary’s).
With Luke’s saying you could interpret that all of God’s adopted children could be said to be blessed and full of grace. I know he said women, but in a way because of what Jesus did during Passion Week and rising from the dead on Easter we are all blessed and full of grace, because that is what Christ did for us. The entire Bible points to Jesus and not Mary. We should concentrate on Jesus. IMO when you spend time asking Mary or any Saint to pray for you it taking the focus away from Jesus. He made it so, with his crucifixion and resurrection, we can go straight to God. The purpose of the veil in the temple being torn is that we can approach God directly. We no longer need an intermediary to approach the throne of Grace or Holy of Holies. A lot of Protestants and Evangelicals do not understand why Catholics talk to Mary and the Saints because of this. I will say if Revelation is correct and “the dead in Christ” are actually dead right now then there is something wrong with the practice of talking to Mary and the Saints.
You mentioned in another post about Abraham and Moses being dead. If Revelation is correct then yes, I would say they are dead and not in heaven. The issue of time in God’s mind is a lot different from ours. If you look at the 6000 year history of the Bible in the grand scheme of things to eternity it is just a second. To the person who is dead, death is just like going to sleep and all of a sudden waking up 8 hours later (I do not like that type of sleep by the way). The only two people in scripture that have never died, other than Jesus, but he died and was resurrected, are Elijah and I think Enoch (it is in Genesis. It mentions that someone walked with God all the days of their life, and then was taken up to heaven. Most other characters in Genesis say they lived x number or years and died. This one did not).[/quote]
Hey D, I will get back to you… otta time. I am very interested in this discussion.[/quote]
I understand. I have one more thing to add to the discussion of Mary. I was reading Matthew 1:24-25. 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
How can Mary still be a virgin if Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage after Jesus was born? The act of consummation as we all know is having sex. I am not trying to denounce what Mary did by carrying and giving birth to Jesus. All I am saying is why does it matter to the Gospel that Mary be eternally virgin? I would say that it doesn’t.
Well, I don’t really have a scripture backing for that other than what Luke says, that she was blessed among women and full of grace.[/quote]
I agree with almost everything you said. Well God told Abraham he would be blessed. Mary said, “she would be called blessed.” I don’t think that being called blessed is a right to create a mass around her, or a way to cleanse us from our sins (After confession you have to say x number of Hail Mary’s).
With Luke’s saying you could interpret that all of God’s adopted children could be said to be blessed and full of grace. I know he said women, but in a way because of what Jesus did during Passion Week and rising from the dead on Easter we are all blessed and full of grace, because that is what Christ did for us. The entire Bible points to Jesus and not Mary. We should concentrate on Jesus. IMO when you spend time asking Mary or any Saint to pray for you it taking the focus away from Jesus. He made it so, with his crucifixion and resurrection, we can go straight to God. The purpose of the veil in the temple being torn is that we can approach God directly. We no longer need an intermediary to approach the throne of Grace or Holy of Holies. A lot of Protestants and Evangelicals do not understand why Catholics talk to Mary and the Saints because of this. I will say if Revelation is correct and “the dead in Christ” are actually dead right now then there is something wrong with the practice of talking to Mary and the Saints.
You mentioned in another post about Abraham and Moses being dead. If Revelation is correct then yes, I would say they are dead and not in heaven. The issue of time in God’s mind is a lot different from ours. If you look at the 6000 year history of the Bible in the grand scheme of things to eternity it is just a second. To the person who is dead, death is just like going to sleep and all of a sudden waking up 8 hours later (I do not like that type of sleep by the way). The only two people in scripture that have never died, other than Jesus, but he died and was resurrected, are Elijah and I think Enoch (it is in Genesis. It mentions that someone walked with God all the days of their life, and then was taken up to heaven. Most other characters in Genesis say they lived x number or years and died. This one did not).[/quote]
Hey D, I will get back to you… otta time. I am very interested in this discussion.[/quote]
I understand. I have one more thing to add to the discussion of Mary. I was reading Matthew 1:24-25. 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
How can Mary still be a virgin if Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage after Jesus was born? The act of consummation as we all know is having sex. I am not trying to denounce what Mary did by carrying and giving birth to Jesus. All I am saying is why does it matter to the Gospel that Mary be eternally virgin? I would say that it doesn’t.[/quote]
In Catholicism, it is believed she remained a virgin all her life. This was confirmed, not by the gospels, but apparitions by the Blessed Mother himself, we believe to have occured and be true. We’re not saying every kook who claims a vision is true. But there are ones we believe beyond the shadow of a doubt to be true. I would again point to Lourdes and St. Bernadette and verified miracles that occurred there. The miraculous spring for one, where people go for healing. There she announced that she was the ‘Immaculate Conception’.
So in this case, it was not confirmed by scriptures, but by Mary herself in revelations she expressed in her interaction with man.
It’s not so much to discuss Lourdes, or miracles or such, just informing where these notions come from.
