Oscar Grant Murdered by Police Officer

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
snipeout wrote:

A police officer also doesn’t have the duty to retreat in a haphazard situation, whether they have an avenue of retreat or not, you are required to retreat.

Maybe in New Jersey.

The Supreme Court ruled in Beard v. U.S. (1895) that a man who was “where he had the right to be” when he came under attack and “…did not provoke the assault, and had at the time reasonable grounds to believe, and in good faith believed, that the deceased intended to take his life, or do him great bodily harm…was not obliged to retreat, nor to consider whether he could safely retreat, but was entitled to stand his ground.”

[/quote]

I wish all states were like that.

82

[quote]snipeout wrote:

I wish all states were like that.[/quote]

Actually, the Castle Doctrine applies in New Jersey, meaning you have no duty to retreat if attacked inside your home. Retreat is only required outside your home if you have reasonable grounds to believe that you can avoid the necessity of deadly force in complete safety.

83

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Scrotus wrote:
Defekt wrote:

You are clueless aren’t you? If I see gun on a traffic stop whether it’s in a rack or not it’s safe to assume the person you pulled over is a gun owner.

Meaning there may be more. Since everyone in this world isn’t stable I would assume a traffic ticket is enough to make some people snap and possibly become homicidal(see uncountable number of road rage incidents for being cut off).

You seem to think that a cop needs to wait to be attacked. You also need to check any state attorney generals policy on use of force. Police officers are legally allowed to escalate ne level of force above what is being used. Try googling escalation of use of force.

A police officer also doesn’t have the duty to retreat in a haphazard situation, whether they have an avenue of retreat or not, you are required to retreat.

Any time deadly force is used it’s a horrible situation. This cop was totally wrong. Cops aren’t mind readers, a gun in a rack poses a threat, you outside of your vehicle poses a threat.
[/quote]

I need to wait to be attacked to defend myself. Why dont the cops? are you a police officer? My point isnt what is legal, because the police do whatever the fuck they want because they can. Power corrupts, and the police write the reports so thats “what happened” if they dont leave evidence that it isnt. THe way police stick together like a gang is also fucking stupid. Trying to cover for the dude who shot Grant is just fucked up.

So when my freind is outside the vehicle, unarmed, with a friendly demeanor but there is a 22 in his gun rack he is likely to pull another gun out of his ass and shoot at the police? at the same time, i can have a freindly demeanor, be cooperative, and all that shit and the cop doesnt want to let me out of the vehicle.

What i see with the police is a trained paramilitary force, with legal rights exceeding that of a citizen, allowed unrestriced use of force, that has the power to do anything they please, with no repercussions. That is my problem with the police, and one of the problems with our legal/justice systems.

84

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
snipeout wrote:

I wish all states were like that.

Actually, the Castle Doctrine applies in New Jersey, meaning you have no duty to retreat if attacked inside your home. Retreat is only required outside your home if you have reasonable grounds to believe that you can avoid the necessity of deadly force in complete safety.[/quote]

Actually I am an LEO so I never have a duty to retreat, but the castle doctrine is good to know. Thanks!

85

[quote]Scrotus wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Scrotus wrote:
Defekt wrote:

You are clueless aren’t you? If I see gun on a traffic stop whether it’s in a rack or not it’s safe to assume the person you pulled over is a gun owner.

Meaning there may be more. Since everyone in this world isn’t stable I would assume a traffic ticket is enough to make some people snap and possibly become homicidal(see uncountable number of road rage incidents for being cut off).

You seem to think that a cop needs to wait to be attacked. You also need to check any state attorney generals policy on use of force. Police officers are legally allowed to escalate ne level of force above what is being used. Try googling escalation of use of force.

A police officer also doesn’t have the duty to retreat in a haphazard situation, whether they have an avenue of retreat or not, you are required to retreat.

Any time deadly force is used it’s a horrible situation. This cop was totally wrong. Cops aren’t mind readers, a gun in a rack poses a threat, you outside of your vehicle poses a threat.

I need to wait to be attacked to defend myself. Why dont the cops? are you a police officer? My point isnt what is legal, because the police do whatever the fuck they want because they can.

Power corrupts, and the police write the reports so thats “what happened” if they dont leave evidence that it isnt. THe way police stick together like a gang is also fucking stupid. Trying to cover for the dude who shot Grant is just fucked up.

So when my freind is outside the vehicle, unarmed, with a friendly demeanor but there is a 22 in his gun rack he is likely to pull another gun out of his ass and shoot at the police? at the same time, i can have a freindly demeanor, be cooperative, and all that shit and the cop doesnt want to let me out of the vehicle.

What i see with the police is a trained paramilitary force, with legal rights exceeding that of a citizen, allowed unrestriced use of force, that has the power to do anything they please, with no repercussions. That is my problem with the police, and one of the problems with our legal/justice systems.
[/quote]

You must be a troll. Yes I am a cop. If a cop had to wait to be attacked that would be ludacris, review any state attorney generals use of force doctrine. We don’t want you out of your vehicle because you are an uncontained threat and a HUGE liability.

Meaning if a car hits your dumb ass we are responsible, likewise if you get hit pulling away from a traffic stop. Theres no way that friend of yours is concealing a weapon, so you are like sooooooo riiiight.

86

I don’t know the full facts of this case, so I won’t comment. But one thing I have learned is that you very seldom get all the facts from a video, or news account, whether it be print or , TV, or radio.

87

[quote]tom63 wrote:
I don’t know the full facts of this case, so I won’t comment. But one thing I have learned is that you very seldom get all the facts from a video, or news account, whether it be print or , TV, or radio. [/quote]

This case looks bad. Those videos are harsh and it looks like the cop (or rent-a-cop if you prefer) was in the wrong. But I agree with this poster that we should wait until all the facts are in.

88

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I’m having a hard time believing he meant to shoot this guy with all those people standing right there. Yeah, it’s possible that he’s a cold blooded killer who decided to commit the act in a manner making it then impossible to deny his involvement.

However, it seems irrational for him to kill someone right there in front of what appears to be a ton of witnesses. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t negligent in whatever way. I’m not to sure what charge a death through negligence could bring…If that is what this is. [/quote]

The video evidence is pretty damning. Besides, there are a few rent-a-cops who are so because they are too “mentally unstable” and could not become a real cop.

It seems hard to beleive, but I have long since abandoned any doubt in the power of stupidity…So guys are so fucking hot headed and that just being insulted can send them over the brink. Hell, there is a dude in my neighborhood who loses his shit if you say anything bad about the Yankees, he is of course is from New York.

But if he gets into your face and will even take swings at you if you say the Yankees suck or something like that. He doesn’t give a fuck who is around either.
Therefore, I find it is not out of the realm of possibility, that this cocksucker just pissed off and popped a cap in this guys ass for just saying something.

89

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
tom63 wrote:
I don’t know the full facts of this case, so I won’t comment. But one thing I have learned is that you very seldom get all the facts from a video, or news account, whether it be print or , TV, or radio.

This case looks bad. Those videos are harsh and it looks like the cop (or rent-a-cop if you prefer) was in the wrong. But I agree with this poster that we should wait until all the facts are in.
[/quote]

If that were you or I, they would arrest us and then do their investigation

90

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
tom63 wrote:
I don’t know the full facts of this case, so I won’t comment. But one thing I have learned is that you very seldom get all the facts from a video, or news account, whether it be print or , TV, or radio.

This case looks bad. Those videos are harsh and it looks like the cop (or rent-a-cop if you prefer) was in the wrong. But I agree with this poster that we should wait until all the facts are in.

If that were you or I, they would arrest us and then do their investigation

[/quote]

True, but I have seen so many cases get tried int he media with a video clip or some news account minus all the facts.

Rodney King, the NYC situation where the guy was at a bachelor party. These looked a whole lot different when you had all the facts.

People see a cop beating a black guy with a PR24 and they go nuts. they weren’t there for the high speed chase, 2x with a taser and don’t understand why and how you use a PR24.

I could kill a person with just a few shots from a PR24, King was hit 52 or so times to get him to comply by pain, after the taser wouldn’t work.

Just wait and see what happens with ALL the evidence. Even things like this that look real bad, sometimes are a whole different story when all the evidence is presented.

And sometimes a cop like this is guilty as sin.

91

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Scrotus wrote:
as a white middle class man i believe the 3 police officers there should all be charged with murder. They are clearly up to no good. I would push for the death penalty on the asswhipe who pulled the trigger, and they should be placed in general population.

Just because they have a badge does not give them the right to execute an individual. That is beyond disgusting. Grant was clearly cooperating. He was doing as the officers asked, and he clearly killed him, execution style. There was no reason for him to draw his weapon, the other 2 officers i saw should of said “Hey, what the fuck are you doing?” Instead they looked on, and just passively watched his fellow officer execute a man. This has totally destroyed my faith(what little is left) in both the police and the justice system. In my town a woman was screaming in the cemetary, probably at a dead relative, and a police officer showed up and killed her. She had a cell-phone.

I can tell you didn’t watch the second video the OP posted. Wanna know how I know? The reporter even says “there is what seems to be a struggle”. In any crowded incident where you have large numbers of people fighting you are always going to have a cover officer draw down in case mob mentality kicks in and people decide to overpower the arresting officers. The problem with this guy was he is obviously the stupidest person on the planet.

Those of you who sit at desk can critique all day long. The bottom line is most people couldn’t hack all that it entails to work odd shifts, have any days off other than saturday and sunday and work 95% of the major holidays. That doesn’t even include the constant stressful situations of felony traffic stops and fights for your life with people who will do anything not to go back to prison.

This lady that was killed in your town, was it day or night? Did she not rspond to the officer then turn in a quick manner with something in her hand pointed at the officer? I guess he should have waited to possibly be shot at before he responded?[/quote]

All very true. i’m not a LEO, but have had training in lethal gun self defense in the style of Massad Ayoob. My instructors had taken all of his classes through LFI three and kubotan. To an untrained observer, things that are justified seem not so. they don’t know guns, so they think the person’s actions were harmless.

A cop or a trained gun owner knows how to act to put someone at ease in regards to the same situation. It only takes 1 second to draw and fire, and when that weapon is out, the cop or good guy has lost if the bad guy shoots straight.

It takes only 1.2 to 2 seconds to draw a knife or other contact weapon and cover 7 yards, barely enough time to draw and fire. This is why police officers seem so dickish in certain situations.What you are doing is often wrong.

Someone asks to see your hands and you’re fumbling in a purse, or quickly reach in a pocket, what is he supposed to do?

92

Well he’s finally in custody and now facing a charge of homicide. And considering his reported lack of cooperation with BART investigators, how did this take so long?!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_re_us/train_station_shooting

93

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
snipeout wrote:

A police officer also doesn’t have the duty to retreat in a haphazard situation, whether they have an avenue of retreat or not, you are required to retreat.

Maybe in New Jersey.

The Supreme Court ruled in Beard v. U.S. (1895) that a man who was “where he had the right to be” when he came under attack and “…did not provoke the assault, and had at the time reasonable grounds to believe, and in good faith believed, that the deceased intended to take his life, or do him great bodily harm…was not obliged to retreat, nor to consider whether he could safely retreat, but was entitled to stand his ground.”

I wish all states were like that.[/quote]

While this one aspect of NJ law might good, its gun law suck.

94

[quote]chillain wrote:
Well he’s finally in custody and now facing a charge of homicide. And considering his reported lack of cooperation with BART investigators, how did this take so long?!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_re_us/train_station_shooting

[/quote]

While he surrendered, it was in Nevada and he was arrested on the basis of a fugitive warrant from California. This guy isn’t exactly doing himself favors in the court of public opinion.

95

[quote]pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I’m having a hard time believing he meant to shoot this guy with all those people standing right there. Yeah, it’s possible that he’s a cold blooded killer who decided to commit the act in a manner making it then impossible to deny his involvement.

However, it seems irrational for him to kill someone right there in front of what appears to be a ton of witnesses. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t negligent in whatever way. I’m not to sure what charge a death through negligence could bring…If that is what this is.

The video evidence is pretty damning. Besides, there are a few rent-a-cops who are so because they are too “mentally unstable” and could not become a real cop.

[/quote]

Oh, no. I felt that he needed to be charged in a serious manner. I just wasn’t willing to say it was deliberate murder instead of, say, some kind of negligence. Not making sure that he was actually pulling the trigger on a taser instead of his firearm, for example. Either way, I figured this guy would do some time. I see he’s being charged with flat out murder though, so apparently there’s enough to have convinced the right people he meant to kill this man.

96

[quote]Sloth wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I’m having a hard time believing he meant to shoot this guy with all those people standing right there. Yeah, it’s possible that he’s a cold blooded killer who decided to commit the act in a manner making it then impossible to deny his involvement.

However, it seems irrational for him to kill someone right there in front of what appears to be a ton of witnesses. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t negligent in whatever way. I’m not to sure what charge a death through negligence could bring…If that is what this is.

The video evidence is pretty damning. Besides, there are a few rent-a-cops who are so because they are too “mentally unstable” and could not become a real cop.

Oh, no. I felt that he needed to be charged in a serious manner. I just wasn’t willing to say it was deliberate murder instead of, say, some kind of negligence. Not making sure that he was actually pulling the trigger on a taser instead of his firearm, for example. Either way, I figured this guy would do some time. I see he’s being charged with flat out murder though, so apparently there’s enough to have convinced the right people he meant to kill this man.

[/quote]

He is getting what he deserves…I just hope the fuckers in Oakland desist on the race baiting crap, cause it ain’t about that. No riots necessary…He murdereda man, he goin’ down for it.

97

[quote]pat wrote:
He is getting what he deserves…I just hope the fuckers in Oakland desist on the race baiting crap, cause it ain’t about that. No riots necessary…He murdereda man, he goin’ down for it.[/quote]

Wow. You think the “fuckers” in, say Atlanta would’ve reacted any differently?

98

[quote]chillain wrote:
pat wrote:
He is getting what he deserves…I just hope the fuckers in Oakland desist on the race baiting crap, cause it ain’t about that. No riots necessary…He murdereda man, he goin’ down for it.

Wow. You think the “fuckers” in, say Atlanta would’ve reacted any differently?

[/quote]

strawman as fk

99

[quote]Scrotus wrote:
Defekt wrote:
Yeah because cops don’t have family either, they aren’t people, dont have feelings, don’t feel any emotion what so ever. Every cop who kills every person does it out of fury, and the fact that it makes their penis as hard as a rock.

Personally, I try to stay out of situations where I am mistaken for having a weapon, in other words I don’t scream in cemeteries at night and wave shit around.

yeah, next time the cops are talking to you when you are drunk make sure to wait till they leave to take your cell-phone out to call for a ride home. You are right, the cops life and family are worth more than joe citizens. I didnt say they killed him out of fury, They killed them because they are jumpy as hell. They are trained to be fucking paranoid, and then these situations arrise. Big fucking surprise. Every cop i know are big fucking douches. They get a hard on from being a bully and abusing people. They like pushing people around and intimidating people because that is what their job has become and that is the kind of people it attracts.

And that cop that shot that girl now walks around town like he is the shit. So fuck him. Another guy i know was driving along, and he swerved due to a taco related incident(he shouldnt be driving and eating I know) so a cop pulls him over. He had a 22 in the gun rack in his pickup, so when the cop sees this, he asks like he just caught a totally insane violent maniac. He started screaming at him and drew his weapon “GET YOUR HANDS ON THE HOOD”. The guy is outside his fucking vehicle out of reach of his weapon the cop acts like he just pulled it out of his ass and is about to open fire. This kind of behavior is unacceptable.

Ive been pulled over before, the cop acts like if he lets me out of the vehicle I will go in some kind of unprovoked homocidal rage and try to kill him with my bare hands or quote]

Yet another person who has never walked a day in a cops boots but hes a expert on police tactics. Maybe cops are paranoid because we are walking into the unknown. That cop doesn’t know you, you could be a emotionally disturbed person where the slightest thing can set you off,you could have a warrant,driving in a stolen vehicle, or worse yet wanted for murder in another state and you are hellbent on not going to jail tonight and will do everything possible to make sure that officer doesn’t take you there.Then we have people like you out there where we tell you a simple thing like stay in the car or put your hands on the steering wheel and you want to argue and fight.Whether you realize it or not having you stay in the car is not being paranoid that is simply good tactics.

100

[quote]tom63 wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Scrotus wrote:
as a white middle class man i believe the 3 police officers there should all be charged with murder. They are clearly up to no good. I would push for the death penalty on the asswhipe who pulled the trigger, and they should be placed in general population.

Just because they have a badge does not give them the right to execute an individual. That is beyond disgusting. Grant was clearly cooperating. He was doing as the officers asked, and he clearly killed him, execution style. There was no reason for him to draw his weapon, the other 2 officers i saw should of said “Hey, what the fuck are you doing?” Instead they looked on, and just passively watched his fellow officer execute a man. This has totally destroyed my faith(what little is left) in both the police and the justice system. In my town a woman was screaming in the cemetary, probably at a dead relative, and a police officer showed up and killed her. She had a cell-phone.

I can tell you didn’t watch the second video the OP posted. Wanna know how I know? The reporter even says “there is what seems to be a struggle”. In any crowded incident where you have large numbers of people fighting you are always going to have a cover officer draw down in case mob mentality kicks in and people decide to overpower the arresting officers. The problem with this guy was he is obviously the stupidest person on the planet.

Those of you who sit at desk can critique all day long. The bottom line is most people couldn’t hack all that it entails to work odd shifts, have any days off other than saturday and sunday and work 95% of the major holidays. That doesn’t even include the constant stressful situations of felony traffic stops and fights for your life with people who will do anything not to go back to prison.

This lady that was killed in your town, was it day or night? Did she not rspond to the officer then turn in a quick manner with something in her hand pointed at the officer? I guess he should have waited to possibly be shot at before he responded?

All very true. i’m not a LEO, but have had training in lethal gun self defense in the style of Massad Ayoob. My instructors had taken all of his classes through LFI three and kubotan. To an untrained observer, things that are justified seem not so. they don’t know guns, so they think the person’s actions were harmless.

A cop or a trained gun owner knows how to act to put someone at ease in regards to the same situation. It only takes 1 second to draw and fire, and when that weapon is out, the cop or good guy has lost if the bad guy shoots straight.

It takes only 1.2 to 2 seconds to draw a knife or other contact weapon and cover 7 yards, barely enough time to draw and fire. This is why police officers seem so dickish in certain situations.What you are doing is often wrong.

Someone asks to see your hands and you’re fumbling in a purse, or quickly reach in a pocket, what is he supposed to do?

[/quote]

According to the professionals in this thread the cop should wait to see if it is an actual gun going to be pointed at them. Because the cops life is alot less valuable then the person not cooperating in the dangerous situation. They say ignorance is no excuse for the law. Meaning just because you didn’t know punching the guy next to you and taking his cell phone is robbery does not excuse you from prosecution and possible 15 years in prison. Why should be any different if you don’t follow a police officers orders, all of the sudden ignorance is an excuse to be belligerent?