The first time I seriously got folded with a double leg takedown in competition and realized pulling guard was absolute bull crap, from then on wrestling+bjj.
[quote]prestonjwes wrote:
The first time I seriously got folded with a double leg takedown in competition and realized pulling guard was absolute bull crap, from then on wrestling+bjj.[/quote]
Yep, never do that.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Thus spoke FightinIrish[/quote]
And he spoke well. I agree with your thoughts on wannabe MMA guys, BJJ, and street violence. So basically, almost everything.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I have read through all of this, and I’m going to break down my thoughts individually here because there was so much ground covered over such a long length of time.
First - to answer the original question - the moment that changed everything for me was the day that I first trained with a friend who was very proficient at MMA. This took place at around 21 or 22, and up until that point, I had generally depended on being “strong for my size” and a fairly in-depth martial arts background from my youth to get me through things.
But, as I watched him work the bag, use angles, and hit with real, true, structured force, I realized that what I knew was inadequate. When I began rolling with him, it was an eye-opener to realize that for all of my years of lifting, this guy could choke me to death inside of 20 seconds and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it.
It was a psychologically intimidating thing. I’d lost fights before, but the ones I had were not the kind where the loser died. They were school-yard affairs where I took a beating, but there was little chance of real, serious injury because it was a given that somebody would step in at some point. But facing your own mortality on a set of wrestling mats in your buddy’s basement - it was intense. Definitely the life-changer, and six years later I’m boxing two or three times a week and my training is geared towards survival, not show.
And, perhaps more importantly, it got me analyzing and dissecting my training in ways that many others don’t. I read about fighting, I read about war - I always have - but I connect with it at a different level. It’s become much more than just a sport.
Before I go on to section two here, let me put my disclaimer out: I despise MMA. Not because of the athletes, but because of the people that seem to be drawn to it, the unwashed masses of white 20-somethings angry at their dads who’ve gotten newly-inked tribal tattoos and fresh tapout shirts and are so desperate to be a part of SOMETHING that they latch on to whatever is the newest fad. I hate them with the fire of a thousand dying stars.
Now, a lot of this thread turned back into the “BJJ iZ Tha BESsttttt in ThE STraaeetz” due to Zecarlo. I disagree with everything he said, and he has never been in a real fight. If you listen to him, it’s on you.
This is the thing that drives me insane about people in the martial arts - even though they’ve never even been in a real physical altercation, they’re quick as fuck in telling you what you need to do to win a “real fight.” Like Zecarlo said about his gun drill with the cops - well fantastic, glad you got their guns. That proves that your training paid off in that very specific of situations. Unfortunately, it’s highly unlikely that a cop thats really suspicious of you is going to get that close, especially if you’ve just committed a crime of some sort and are truly the type that’s going to put it all on the line and lunge for his gun.
Street violence is nothing like your drills. Its nothing like RMA classes. Its nothing like boxing, or BJJ, or MMA. It’s just shitty and drunk and brutal and involves weapons and friends and all kinds of shit. So truly, unless you have been in a real knock down, dragout brawl not in the gym, shut the fuck up about what you think is right.
The Gracies didnt prove anything, just like if Tyson knocked out Gracie it wouldnt prove anything other than that on that day, that’s what happened. Stop measuring street violence by controlled things like boxing matches, vale tudo fights, MMA brawls, whatever. Its not the same. The fighters are more prepared for street violence, it’s true, but the end result is as much in the air as it would be with two untrained people.
That being said, I box. I box because I love it, and because I believe it to be the simplest, most effective thing to learn given the limited amount of time that I have available between working three jobs and trying to advance my career. And, because I love it, I have truly increased my depth of knowledge in a way that I would not be able to with another art. I admit itÃ??Ã?¢??s not perfect, and that it doesn’t prepare me for every situation - I have trouble effectively restraining drunken friends because I only go from 0 - 60. I only know how to hit, and there’s no way to half-ass that. But boxing teaches you how to hit harder and more effectively than any other art, it teaches you balance, footwork, head movement, and how to take a punch. In my experience, in most cases, that will likely be enough to get you out of a jam.
And while I have nothing against BJJ, it fails in where it puts you in a fight- namely, on the ground. There’s no compensation for this because that position is so inherently disadvantageous. I have stepped in and whacked guys who had better ground position on one of my friends. I would do it again. BJJ works for certain situations, and knowing some grappling is absolutely essential, but if you make it the base of your self-defense training, you deserve what you get. Again, the one major proponent of using that art in that capacity has never been in a fight himself. So take it for what it’s worth.
Now, when it comes to cops - I have been historically at odds with them, from the time of my misguided youth to my current career as a journalist. However, I understand all of what Batman and Idaho have said; in a use-of-force situation, the system has indeed hampered the police in applying the force that may be necessary. That is society’s fault, and it’s something that should be reversed. Nothing sucks more than hearing some granola-eating homo bitch about a police shooting and say, “Why didn’t they just shoot to wound??” It’s pathetic.
That being said, use-of-force continuums exist for a reason. Cops have been known historically to abuse all manners of their power, and excessive force is part of that. I’m not saying you guys do, or your pals would, but it has been done and you all know it. Accountability is paramount here, because it allows the public to separate the necessary use of force from the excessive. If all cops are given a free reign, those lines become very blurred. That is a bad thing.
But still, each case needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis, and we need to not use broad strokes to define how a cop should act in a given situation. The idea of an officer being more likely to allow himself to sustain an injury rather than chance an excessive force lawsuit is obscene, and it comes from the fact that even though everyone likes to think that it’s “Such a crazy world today,” violence today is much rarer probably than at any other time in human history, and our society doesn’t know how to deal with it well. As such, it - and this includes my brethren in the press - have a difficult time judging when it’s necessary to pull that trigger.
If I think of anything else, I will post it up. But I think that’s all for my ruminations on this subject.[/quote]
Great post and I appreciate your thoughts and opinions. From 1999 to 2005, My unit served over 300 high risk felony drug and arrest warrants (SWAT), so, our 4th amendment rights on search and seizure are very important to me. Nothing screams “Gestapo” like kicking in your front door. After 8 years in the Middle East, I have a deep, profound respect for our Constitution, if the average American could experience what it is like over here, they would run out and kiss the ground they live on.
Excessive force, both in enforcement and administration of the law: Never.
Fair and equal rights for officers in non-lethal and lethal situations: Yes
I understand your thoughts on fighting, unless, you have actually been in a “knock down, drag out” as they say in the South, I dont think you can really train with that “killer mindset”. You may compete, you may get your ass beat, you may win, but, when rules and judges are around, you are just in a sport. I always “sigh” when I hear a MMA/Boxer/Football/Basketball player refer to themselves or others as “warriors”. What is someone to trying to kill you? What? you on the battlefield?
Feel a rant coming on…LoL…Got to go to work
Be safe, Watch your 6.
Back to the OP…
It does not take courage to train. It is more a commitment to hard-work. Courage comes with stepping in the ring.
You need to be able to really push yourself when training alone. The mental game is more important during solitary training and this ‘mental training’ carries over to the ring.
[quote]humble wrote:
[quote]
compete in mma and then open your mouth, training is just that[/quote]
Don’t need to, they buckle in training… says a lot to me about how they fight.
So yeah, type away.[/quote]
I must say that your nickname and the way you portray yourself on this board are totally different things.
On to the contents:
I agree that you say that people in grapplearts are less efficient in taking punches. I have thaiboxed for several years now and I have transitioned into BJJ. I hail from the beautiful Belgium, just below Holland. As you should know Holland is the very pinnacle of Muay thai and Kickboxing in europe. I do not like getting hit in the face, I switched to BJJ because I have found that kneeing a decent wrestler in the face and busting their ears and face in are a lot harder then you make it out to be.
Also do not think that an MMA fighter that fights you in the street is going to go all sportsrules on you. He will also bite, scratch and do all that shit…
What I am trying to say is that maybe you should find a better gym. Seeing that in europe I have yet to see this evolution of MMA-fighters being bitches.
I do agree that there is a bigger influx of wannabes and toughboys. Those guys are indeed idiots, but they tend to fade away quickly…
I was 6’1" 205 , having a conversation with a buddy and he reminds me (there are no weight classes in life). You only have 3-4 seconds in which to prove yourself. I now am 245. I will never step into the ring again seriously, due to a head injury sustained in a car accident. But I train for life’s little surprises now.
[quote]ude garame wrote:
I must say that your nickname and the way you portray yourself on this board are totally different things.
On to the contents:
I agree that you say that people in grapplearts are less efficient in taking punches. I have thaiboxed for several years now and I have transitioned into BJJ. I hail from the beautiful Belgium, just below Holland. As you should know Holland is the very pinnacle of Muay thai and Kickboxing in europe. I do not like getting hit in the face, I switched to BJJ because I have found that kneeing a decent wrestler in the face and busting their ears and face in are a lot harder then you make it out to be.
Also do not think that an MMA fighter that fights you in the street is going to go all sportsrules on you. He will also bite, scratch and do all that shit…
What I am trying to say is that maybe you should find a better gym. Seeing that in europe I have yet to see this evolution of MMA-fighters being bitches.
I do agree that there is a bigger influx of wannabes and toughboys. Those guys are indeed idiots, but they tend to fade away quickly… [/quote]
Hi ude garame
How are you?
Me, I’m great. Just bitch slapped a few mma guys today. Felt good.
Just kidding.
I’ve trained with names you’ve seen in the UFC. I’ve also sparred with world champions. I’ve trained in all three disciplines alongside and sparred with current world champions.
My nick is humble, but I’m not meek. If you expect a politically correct explanation or response from me, then you need to pick a different forum or simply ignore me. I don’t give two flying fucks about whatever explanations MMA guys and BJJ guys want to throw around, they’re flat out pussies when they are being punched in the face and why they choose to wrestle in the first place. There is no side stepping that fact. That is why they are not purists but do this fucking thing called ‘mixed martial arts’ a fanciful marketing phrase.
Don’t get me wrong, I watch mma, I follow it, I study it and I practise it. I train along side the aforementioned champion’s but I see how they look with trepidation at a guy who is doing 12 rounds getting his head and body beat endlessly. I see how their soul leaves and drops to the floor when they have thrown everything they have and the purist boxer or MT fighter is still standing grinning at them, belittling their efforts.
That image cannot be removed from my mind.
Here’s your MMA star… your hall of famer. Your amazing Captain America. He can suck my dick. He’s a fake and seeing this makes me believe that all his fights were a fix… something to egg American’s and get them behind the sport.
[quote]humble wrote:
[quote]ude garame wrote:
I must say that your nickname and the way you portray yourself on this board are totally different things.
On to the contents:
I agree that you say that people in grapplearts are less efficient in taking punches. I have thaiboxed for several years now and I have transitioned into BJJ. I hail from the beautiful Belgium, just below Holland. As you should know Holland is the very pinnacle of Muay thai and Kickboxing in europe. I do not like getting hit in the face, I switched to BJJ because I have found that kneeing a decent wrestler in the face and busting their ears and face in are a lot harder then you make it out to be.
Also do not think that an MMA fighter that fights you in the street is going to go all sportsrules on you. He will also bite, scratch and do all that shit…
What I am trying to say is that maybe you should find a better gym. Seeing that in europe I have yet to see this evolution of MMA-fighters being bitches.
I do agree that there is a bigger influx of wannabes and toughboys. Those guys are indeed idiots, but they tend to fade away quickly… [/quote]
Hi ude garame
How are you?
Me, I’m great. Just bitch slapped a few mma guys today. Felt good.
Just kidding.
I’ve trained with names you’ve seen in the UFC. I’ve also sparred with world champions. I’ve trained in all three disciplines alongside and sparred with current world champions.
My nick is humble, but I’m not meek. If you expect a politically correct explanation or response from me, then you need to pick a different forum or simply ignore me. I don’t give two flying fucks about whatever explanations MMA guys and BJJ guys want to throw around, they’re flat out pussies when they are being punched in the face and why they choose to wrestle in the first place. There is no side stepping that fact. That is why they are not purists but do this fucking thing called ‘mixed martial arts’ a fanciful marketing phrase.
Don’t get me wrong, I watch mma, I follow it, I study it and I practise it. I train along side the aforementioned champion’s but I see how they look with trepidation at a guy who is doing 12 rounds getting his head and body beat endlessly. I see how their soul leaves and drops to the floor when they have thrown everything they have and the purist boxer or MT fighter is still standing grinning at them, belittling their efforts.
That image cannot be removed from my mind.
Here’s your MMA star… your hall of famer. Your amazing Captain America. He can suck my dick. He’s a fake and seeing this makes me believe that all his fights were a fix… something to egg American’s and get them behind the sport.
[/quote]
You know Humble I tend to agree with you. I love MMA and practice it blah blah blah. I am a stand up guy though. I love wrestling, not the collegiate type of stuff but the principles behind it that work in a real fight. I use it when I have to to keep from going to my back. If I am on my back then I have jiu jitsu and wrestling to get me back to handing out the ass wooping.
I really feel that purist boxing will get you into trouble against guys with real MT and or kickboking training but so much can be learned from it and used effectivley that you need to do it. Also I think MMA guys forego a lot of the movement, head and feet that come with being a striker. In my training I have tried to implement this to a great deal and it has worked wonders for not getting hit and opening up good shots to stop the other guy.
also I have noticed that getting most jiu jitsu guys to put on some gloves and fight for real is like getting a man to give anal birth to wild animals. I do like Randy Cotoure as a personality but his fights are boring as hell and I hate that type of fight and why would you lean on a guy when you could punch him in his face. His fighting is just a game of cardio really being held against a fence and handfighting until you are tired an he punches you or takes you down. I think good footwork and “cage awareness” could save you from being stuck there though.
I also feel that guys try to stratgize way to much and it seems they let each other do it. I was watching Ben Henderson fight this weekend and his jab looks like he is masturbatig somebody instead of punching. One thing I have learned in part from this forum is that if you are going to jab make it count in some form with some power behind it. Sometimes I watch fights and wonder Why did they both just do what they did, dosent make sense. Especially in the higher paid levels. The up and coming hungry guys are fighting harder and better than the ones who have made it.
I just hate how wrestlers and MMAers think that all Boxers and Muay Thai guys are flat out un-athletic and would just freeze if you attempted to take them down and say oh, yeah, here… take my leg, no take two please. Double leg me to the ground, there is no way I can see your shot coming. That’s just flat out sheer stupid arrogance. If you have a sport at all it is because of the likes of us, not because Jits and wrestling is so fucking grand. Motherfuckers have been wrestling for eons and no one made it mainstream. As soon as you put brutal punching and kicking into the game, well whaddaya know… everyone wants to watch.
So shove your MMA up your asses. Striking still rules because it’s what people do in real life and what they like to see. No body ever thinks of master plans on how to wrestle a guy in the street but bet your bottom dollar that they plan where to hit their enemies and with what as Irish mentioned and usually with how many of their mates. No one ever pack wrestled a guy in the street. Endless pack beat downs though.
At some point you guys gotta get off tv, off the internet and into a gym and cop a whooping like a man. Then you will know.
I think you guys arguing over striking vs grappling are getting caught up in the specifics and losing site of the bigger picture. Grappling is essentially made up of four parts:
- Position
- Control
- Transitions
- Submissions
Of those components, submissions are probably the least important part of grappling (if we’re talking about real combat, bar brawls, or even sport MMA). However, positioning (attaining and escaping from), controlling your opponent’s body (or denying them control of yours), and transitioning effectively between positions are crucial aspects of all fighting systems.
Of those three crucial parts positioning is probably the most important (and is one of the most important aspects of all combat). Attaining a superior position can allow a physically inferior, or outnumbered warrior(s) to defeat (or at least hold their own against) a superior opponent. The legendary battle at Thermopoly is probably the most widely known example, but this is essentially why ancient castles were usually built on the tops of hills/mountains.
Ranzo mentioned the use of good footwork in his above post (which is a great point), but the primary purpose footwork is to obtain a superior position to either allow for the effective use of one’s offense or to get one out of harm’s way. In other words, it’s designed to put you in a position where you can do damage and your opponent cannot. Effective grappling is simply another means by which one can do this.
You see boxers “tie up” their opponents when they are in trouble to stop them from being able to continue to do damage (in years past they would also sometimes do so to utilize their own striking skills from this range, but since boxing’s rules have change to eliminate this you don’t see that tactics used much anymore). Muay Thai and Muay Boran make great use of the clinch to launch their own close quarters attacks from and to minimize the effectiveness of their opponent’s attacks.
Would any of you argue that these are not effective tactics or skill sets? Why then belittle fighters like Couture who effectively utilized a Greco Roman clinch and dirty boxing to maintain superior position from which to employ dirty boxing skills while at the same time smothering his opponent’s attacks? Why ridicule wrestlers or Judoka who are able to put their opponents on their backs (this allowing them to effectively throw effective strikes from a top position while their opponent’s offensive options become greatly handicapped)?
If you enjoy doing stand up fighting then that’s cool, most people naturally gravitate towards one or the other IME. But I don’t understand all this vitriol towards those who enjoy other aspects of combat.
Heck, put any unarmed combat athlete (I don’t care if they do a striking or grappling art) in a ring against a really good Kenjutsu or Kendo fighter armed with a samurai sword and the unarmed combat athlete is going to the morgue. Then again, drop the Kenjutsu/Kendo fighter into a jungle against a Ninjutsu fighter or Green Beret and the Kenjutsu/Kendo fighter isn’t coming out alive. Of course put the Green Beret or Ninja into a ring (unarmed and having to abide by the tules of the ring) against the unarmed combat athlete and the Green Beret/Ninja is going to likely get beat up.
What is the moral of my little rant? That all of the above skill sets are effective but geared towards a specific setting or circumstances. To think that there is any one “best” skill set is to have lost sight of the big picture.
Agreed. Every art is the best at what it is designed to do. I love wrestling and jiu jitsu but naturally gravitate toward striking. The point of my post (not sure about humble) was to just say that there is a lot of hoodoo in MMA. I generally don’t like sports like Basketball football or whatever because the people that watch it in a large degree do not participate and they talk foolishly about the pros who do it.
I think that is prevelant with MMA because of the current populatity of it and hence the Grappling is better than striking or whatver dumbass talk happens. What I know is how I want to win a fight and where I am least likely to make that happen so I train to use my strenghts to keep me from those areas and train those weak areas so that I may live longer or prevail if I do get there.
I also see much much crossover between all of the arts. Particularly with range and distance and of course as you pointed out Sento the positioning which is part of the range and distance.
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Agreed. Every art is the best at what it is designed to do. I love wrestling and jiu jitsu but naturally gravitate toward striking. The point of my post (not sure about humble) was to just say that there is a lot of hoodoo in MMA. I generally don’t like sports like Basketball football or whatever because the people that watch it in a large degree do not participate and they talk foolishly about the pros who do it.
I think that is prevelant with MMA because of the current populatity of it and hence the Grappling is better than striking or whatver dumbass talk happens. What I know is how I want to win a fight and where I am least likely to make that happen so I train to use my strenghts to keep me from those areas and train those weak areas so that I may live longer or prevail if I do get there.
I also see much much crossover between all of the arts. Particularly with range and distance and of course as you pointed out Sento the positioning which is part of the range and distance.
[/quote]
Right on.
And just for the record, I hate Tapout wearing wannabes who walk around with a chip on their shoulder because they “train MMA” (when in reality they just watch it on tv and maybe took a few classes or wrestle around with their buddies) just as much as the rest of you. I am in no way justifying this type of behavior or standing up for such individuals.
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Agreed.I think that is prevelant with MMA because of the current populatity of it and hence the Grappling is better than striking or whatver dumbass talk happens. What I know is how I want to win a fight and where I am least likely to make that happen so I train to use my strenghts to keep me from those areas and train those weak areas so that I may live longer or prevail if I do get there.
[/quote]
You nailed that. I would comment but nothing really more to add.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I think you guys arguing over striking vs grappling are getting caught up in the specifics and losing site of the bigger picture. Grappling is essentially made up of four parts:
- Position
- Control
- Transitions
- Submissions
Of those components, submissions are probably the least important part of grappling (if we’re talking about real combat, bar brawls, or even sport MMA). However, positioning (attaining and escaping from), controlling your opponent’s body (or denying them control of yours), and transitioning effectively between positions are crucial aspects of all fighting systems.
Of those three crucial parts positioning is probably the most important (and is one of the most important aspects of all combat). Attaining a superior position can allow a physically inferior, or outnumbered warrior(s) to defeat (or at least hold their own against) a superior opponent. The legendary battle at Thermopoly is probably the most widely known example, but this is essentially why ancient castles were usually built on the tops of hills/mountains.
Ranzo mentioned the use of good footwork in his above post (which is a great point), but the primary purpose footwork is to obtain a superior position to either allow for the effective use of one’s offense or to get one out of harm’s way. In other words, it’s designed to put you in a position where you can do damage and your opponent cannot. Effective grappling is simply another means by which one can do this.
You see boxers “tie up” their opponents when they are in trouble to stop them from being able to continue to do damage (in years past they would also sometimes do so to utilize their own striking skills from this range, but since boxing’s rules have change to eliminate this you don’t see that tactics used much anymore). Muay Thai and Muay Boran make great use of the clinch to launch their own close quarters attacks from and to minimize the effectiveness of their opponent’s attacks.
Would any of you argue that these are not effective tactics or skill sets? Why then belittle fighters like Couture who effectively utilized a Greco Roman clinch and dirty boxing to maintain superior position from which to employ dirty boxing skills while at the same time smothering his opponent’s attacks? Why ridicule wrestlers or Judoka who are able to put their opponents on their backs (this allowing them to effectively throw effective strikes from a top position while their opponent’s offensive options become greatly handicapped)?
If you enjoy doing stand up fighting then that’s cool, most people naturally gravitate towards one or the other IME. But I don’t understand all this vitriol towards those who enjoy other aspects of combat.
Heck, put any unarmed combat athlete (I don’t care if they do a striking or grappling art) in a ring against a really good Kenjutsu or Kendo fighter armed with a samurai sword and the unarmed combat athlete is going to the morgue. Then again, drop the Kenjutsu/Kendo fighter into a jungle against a Ninjutsu fighter or Green Beret and the Kenjutsu/Kendo fighter isn’t coming out alive. Of course put the Green Beret or Ninja into a ring (unarmed and having to abide by the tules of the ring) against the unarmed combat athlete and the Green Beret/Ninja is going to likely get beat up.
What is the moral of my little rant? That all of the above skill sets are effective but geared towards a specific setting or circumstances. To think that there is any one “best” skill set is to have lost sight of the big picture.
[/quote]
X2. Great Post…“to think that there is any one “best” skill set is to have lost sight of the big picture”…words of wisdom we all should follow.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Agreed. Every art is the best at what it is designed to do. I love wrestling and jiu jitsu but naturally gravitate toward striking. The point of my post (not sure about humble) was to just say that there is a lot of hoodoo in MMA. I generally don’t like sports like Basketball football or whatever because the people that watch it in a large degree do not participate and they talk foolishly about the pros who do it.
I think that is prevelant with MMA because of the current populatity of it and hence the Grappling is better than striking or whatver dumbass talk happens. What I know is how I want to win a fight and where I am least likely to make that happen so I train to use my strenghts to keep me from those areas and train those weak areas so that I may live longer or prevail if I do get there.
I also see much much crossover between all of the arts. Particularly with range and distance and of course as you pointed out Sento the positioning which is part of the range and distance.
[/quote]
Right on.
And just for the record, I hate Tapout wearing wannabes who walk around with a chip on their shoulder because they “train MMA” (when in reality they just watch it on tv and maybe took a few classes or wrestle around with their buddies) just as much as the rest of you. I am in no way justifying this type of behavior or standing up for such individuals.[/quote]
I agree. I hate that shit, especially, in a public place. Nothing worse that some suburbanite flying his tapout colors, half soaked in beer, screaming at the screen…its better to read about it the next day.
I would like to add two more points in defence of grappling, directly addressing things Humble said:
“They just do grappling because they don’t like to get smacked in the face” - I think, especially from a self defense point of view, that not liking getting smacked in the face is a very healthy mindset. Being able to deal with it, fair enough. Liking it, meh.
(Also, even purist grapplers eat the accidental knee to the face occasionally)
“They’re not real fighters” Neither is a kickboxer who learns not to use elbows, from a street fighting perspective. I train in BJJ and I don’t give a fuck if someone calls me a fighter; sports BJJ is, just like modern Muay Thai, a competition sport first and foremost. People who NEED to call themselves fighters to puff up their self esteem are damn close to ‘dem tap out shirt wearin’ pussies’, in my book.
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
“They just do grappling because they don’t like to get smacked in the face” - I think, especially from a self defense point of view, that not liking getting smacked in the face is a very healthy mindset. Being able to deal with it, fair enough. Liking it, meh.
(Also, even purist grapplers eat the accidental knee to the face occasionally).[/quote]
I don’t really like getting hit in the face either. It kinda sucks. Especially after a broken nose or 2. I took plenty of shots to the face when I boxed. When I quit doing Golden Gloves and got into BJJ I actually enjoyed the non facial contact. The jacked up ears actually are a status symbol. The f’ed up nose, not so much. Looks like you walked into a door. I still like to spar standing up from time to time and will wear full headgear but even that isn’t the answer since you eat every glancing blow that you probably would miss not wearing it.
I think the proplem people have with grapplers in general comes from the loud and vocal Affliction wearing white belts that do nothing but grapple but want to come across as well rounded MMA guys that are better than pure stand-up guys just because they hit a heavy bag a few rounds or do 1 round in a cage a week.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
“They’re not real fighters” Neither is a kickboxer who learns not to use elbows, from a street fighting perspective. I train in BJJ and I don’t give a fuck if someone calls me a fighter; sports BJJ is, just like modern Muay Thai, a competition sport first and foremost. People who NEED to call themselves fighters to puff up their self esteem are damn close to ‘dem tap out shirt wearin’ pussies’, in my book.[/quote]
I get what you’re saying, but grappling - any kind - is not fighting if it does not involve striking, and that person, therefore, is not a fighter.
There are grappling “matches” or “contests,” but they are absolutely not “fights.” Grapplers who call their matches “fights” are maddening, and I correct them on it because it’s simply wrong. [/quote]
I kind of feel the same way, but I don’t know if “correction” is really the right course. How do you answer:
“A boxing match isn’t a real fight. If I can’t kick you it isn’t a real fight.”
I agree having to deal with getting hit, specifically punched in the face seems to be a hell of a lot more “real”. I would actually like Blaze and Rich’s take on this since they have backgrounds in striking that barred punching to the face. I think it is pretty damn easy to go down the “No True Scotsman” rabbit hole when trying to dismiss one type of conflict, but not another.
Defining what is “really” a fight is more about what contests we value. I tend to just be pedantic enough to say that if both people were really trying to win via hurting the other one it was real enough.
The other option is we only count real, honest, kill the bastard, combat.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
There are grappling “matches” or “contests,” but they are absolutely not “fights.” Grapplers who call their matches “fights” are maddening, and I correct them on it because it’s simply wrong. [/quote]
You are right, they shouldn’t be called fights. Tournament BJJ and no-gi are matches. The only thing imo that are fights are either boxing or MMA.