[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I tend to say it’s if striking to the face is allowed. Rules may vary, but that is necessary.
No striking, no fight.[/quote]
On a gut level I agree.
I just recognize I am being really arbitrary, so I don’t feel like I have any cause or grounds to “correct” folks.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]MWP wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
There are grappling “matches” or “contests,” but they are absolutely not “fights.” Grapplers who call their matches “fights” are maddening, and I correct them on it because it’s simply wrong. [/quote]
You are right, they shouldn’t be called fights. Tournament BJJ and no-gi are matches. The only thing imo that are fights are either boxing or MMA.
[/quote]
I am not trying to give either of you shit here, but would MMA be "real"er, presumably because even more ways of face hitting is allowed?
Can there even be degrees of “realness”?
I say no to the second, so also no to the first. I also don’t get wrapped around the axel about rules determining whether it is a contest or a “fight”.
I am more on the page that non-cooperation and ill intent is a more obvious line.
So, wrestling forbids “dangerous” techniques, so we might not call it a fight, no matter how rough or hotly contested it is.
On the other hand if some would be Rousimar Pallhares grabs your ankle and tries to rip it off like it was a crab leg than you can categorize it as a “fight” if you want because some mother fucker is trying to cripple you.
Similarly, sparring isn’t really a “fight” because there is at least in theory a bit more concern for the health and well being of your “partner”.
Does this make any sense?
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]MWP wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
There are grappling “matches” or “contests,” but they are absolutely not “fights.” Grapplers who call their matches “fights” are maddening, and I correct them on it because it’s simply wrong. [/quote]
You are right, they shouldn’t be called fights. Tournament BJJ and no-gi are matches. The only thing imo that are fights are either boxing or MMA.
[/quote]
I am not trying to give either of you shit here, but would MMA be "real"er, presumably because even more ways of face hitting is allowed?
Can there even be degrees of “realness”?
I say no to the second, so also no to the first. I also don’t get wrapped around the axel about rules determining whether it is a contest or a “fight”.
I am more on the page that non-cooperation and ill intent is a more obvious line.
So, wrestling forbids “dangerous” techniques, so we might not call it a fight, no matter how rough or hotly contested it is.
On the other hand if some would be Rousimar Pallhares grabs your ankle and tries to rip it off like it was a crab leg than you can categorize it as a “fight” if you want because some mother fucker is trying to cripple you.
Similarly, sparring isn’t really a “fight” because there is at least in theory a bit more concern for the health and well being of your “partner”.
Does this make any sense?
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
I completely agree here. These lines that you speak of with non-cooperation and ill intent is something I deal with on a daily basis as I would suspect we all do in training with other people. We all know the sparring or rolling session that starts with the statement “lets go light” and then one or the other takes the others “lightness” as a chance to exploit him raising the aggression level another notch.
I think the aggression and ill intent factor is what makes it a fight and why you need to practice techniques a lot in order to do them under stress of a “real” fight.
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]MWP wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
There are grappling “matches” or “contests,” but they are absolutely not “fights.” Grapplers who call their matches “fights” are maddening, and I correct them on it because it’s simply wrong. [/quote]
You are right, they shouldn’t be called fights. Tournament BJJ and no-gi are matches. The only thing imo that are fights are either boxing or MMA.
[/quote]
I am not trying to give either of you shit here, but would MMA be "real"er, presumably because even more ways of face hitting is allowed?
Can there even be degrees of “realness”?
I say no to the second, so also no to the first. I also don’t get wrapped around the axel about rules determining whether it is a contest or a “fight”.
I am more on the page that non-cooperation and ill intent is a more obvious line.
So, wrestling forbids “dangerous” techniques, so we might not call it a fight, no matter how rough or hotly contested it is.
On the other hand if some would be Rousimar Pallhares grabs your ankle and tries to rip it off like it was a crab leg than you can categorize it as a “fight” if you want because some mother fucker is trying to cripple you.
Similarly, sparring isn’t really a “fight” because there is at least in theory a bit more concern for the health and well being of your “partner”.
Does this make any sense?
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
I completely agree here. These lines that you speak of with non-cooperation and ill intent is something I deal with on a daily basis as I would suspect we all do in training with other people. We all know the sparring or rolling session that starts with the statement “lets go light” and then one or the other takes the others “lightness” as a chance to exploit him raising the aggression level another notch.
I think the aggression and ill intent factor is what makes it a fight and why you need to practice techniques a lot in order to do them under stress of a “real” fight. [/quote]
I’d agree with all of what you both say. Although, like Ranzo, I’ve known more than a few sparring matches turn into full blown fights - sometimes tougher than a real fight!
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Striking is fighting. Grappling is not. If grappling has no rules, that means striking is allowed, and then it’s a fight.
No striking, no fighting.
No striker, no fighter.[/quote]
I tend to agree, otherwise it’s just a forceful cuddle, and who doesn’t like hugs?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Striking is fighting. Grappling is not. If grappling has no rules, that means striking is allowed, and then it’s a fight.
No striking, no fighting.
No striker, no fighter.[/quote]
Trust me, out of all people I want to agree but if someone grabs your arm in the street and bends it in a way it should not be bent, tears out your ligaments or breaks a bone, that’s as good as it’s gonna be recorded as a fight. If all they do is roll in the hay like lovers, then no, they can get fucked, that’s not a fight. That’s a tussle.
As for competition? Never will a Bjj or wrestling competitor be called a fighter… never.
The order goes
Boxing
Muay Thai
Other MA’s (that involve striking)
MMA
only.
Someone pulled my ear, AND pushed their thumb up my nostril at the same time, while we rolled around on the floor. I would consider that a fight. A shit, poorly choreographed fight, but a fight none the less. I wasn’t able to get my hands clear to punch the fucker. He drew snot and ear wax, and I didn’t manage to spill a single bodily fluid (although he did have the kind of grin on his face that suggested he was having a gay old time). Pretty sure I lost that fight.
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Someone pulled my ear, AND pushed their thumb up my nostril at the same time, while we rolled around on the floor. I would consider that a fight. A shit, poorly choreographed fight, but a fight none the less. I wasn’t able to get my hands clear to punch the fucker. He drew snot and ear wax, and I didn’t manage to spill a single bodily fluid (although he did have the kind of grin on his face that suggested he was having a gay old time). Pretty sure I lost that fight. [/quote]
Lol… you got the equivalent of a rape. That’s rape my friend. You should report that shit. Violation and all.
Irish, we agree then
OK… on to a serious note now.
one thing that changed everything for me is age. There simply is no cure for wear and tear.
I tore my medial meniscus end of 2010. Had a simple op arthroscopy in Jan 2011.
Removed most of my medial mensicus because there was tears.
When we did the MRI for the meniscus check, it was also found out that I had a completely severed ACL. WTF?
Great, so what does this mean doc?
Well he says, it has been torn for about 4 years. More WTF.
How can that be doc, wouldn’t I notice?
Nope, in fact about 70% of ice hockey players don’t even know they have ACL tears. The quads and surrounding muscles and ligaments etc are so strong, it is barely noticeable in many athletes. Only time it is noticeable is if there are bad imbalances.
So now, I am leg strapped up, healing from the Arthroscopy but mentally fucked because I am aware I am nursing a torn ACL.
Takes me a while to overcome the hurdle but I begin my own rehab. (BA in Sports Med Exercises and sports science)
Knee get’s better, walking is ok, jogging still out of the question. So I keep rehabbing. Eventually a year and a half later with no other rehab work except squats and some knee extensions at the start, some hammy work and lots of deads, I’m squatting 60kg over my PB in the past. I never flat out squatted for max reps in the past, more just for athletic work/ fight training. But now I’m going deeper, powering out with 200+ kg on my back and my acl is still torn and mensicus missing. No probs with my knees either.
All the while nursing the injuries through Muay Thai training.
Well the other day something happened. Now something is very wrong, getting scans done soon but I have abused and know my body for far too long to not know that something is definitely up.
Looks like is a big bye bye to Muay Thai, and full reco coming up. And it’s winter here… that’s gonna suck.
So my realisation is that warm ups, cool downs, rub downs, stretching etc will all fail when your body is being brutalised and you weigh 100+ kg. It’s inevitable and a 60kg unco guy making you dance around will injure you more than a 110kg professional in training.
I compete in BJJ. I would never say that means I’m a tough mofo. So we agree ^^
humble,
I am sorry to read that.
I do know that in addiction to absolutely terrifying wildlife Australia has some absolutely world class minds when it comes to physical rehabilitation.
Also, there are a lot of different types of “wrong” that can happen. Some are relatively minor (soft tissue work, rehab, different exercises) and some can be life changing. I usually phrase things with patients as “I don’t want to scare you too much, just enough that you follow through with getting_________ checked out.” So, this might not be an actual end to Muay Thai long term.
Another thought is how do you feel about coaching? You have the background and experience, certainly you would be better and pad holding than someone who took a one day course right? Coaching/training others might be the thing that keeps you active and lets you transition into “dangerous old man” from “young dangerous fighter”.
In any event I know that being faced with a body that just will not do what you want it too is difficult. I hope that things turn out to be less ominous than they seem now and you will be in my thoughts.
Side note: I think this board is fucking cursed. Irish is held together by duct tape, caffeine, and stubbornness. KMC is essentially a strong and capable piece of scar tissue. A pro boxer (DonnyDarkoIRL) starts a log and is summarily put on the injured list by his physio. I just pulled my teres major doing the 1st pullup of my workout. If this shit keeps up we are going to be a bunch reasonably dangerous gimps.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
I compete in BJJ. I would never say that means I’m a tough mofo. So we agree ^[1]
I wouldn’t say it precludes that fact though. Plenty of grapplers are seriously double rough.
I am not too sure that anything that happens in a controlled environment (i.e. training, competition) is really worth dick measuring over in the big scheme of things.
Regards,
Robert A
/quote ↩︎
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]humble wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Striking is fighting. Grappling is not. If grappling has no rules, that means striking is allowed, and then it’s a fight.
No striking, no fighting.
No striker, no fighter.[/quote]
Trust me, out of all people I want to agree but if someone grabs your arm in the street and bends it in a way it should not be bent, tears out your ligaments or breaks a bone, that’s as good as it’s gonna be recorded as a fight. If all they do is roll in the hay like lovers, then no, they can get fucked, that’s not a fight. That’s a tussle.
As for competition? Never will a Bjj or wrestling competitor be called a fighter… never.
The order goes
Boxing
Muay Thai
Other MA’s (that involve striking)
MMA
only.[/quote]
I just meant competition wise. But yes I agree.[/quote]
Ok, what if you are strikning the other guy WITH something?
So, would full contact stick fighting be practiced by fighters?
What about kendo?
Fencing? Does it matter if it is re-creationist fencing with heavier “blades” or International/Olympic type?
What about the type of “fighting” that organizations like the SCA do?
On a gut level I line up line for line with FighttinIrish, humble, and MWP on the things we have discussed. However I cannot shake the feeling of some cognitive dissonance in making the distinctions.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]humble wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Striking is fighting. Grappling is not. If grappling has no rules, that means striking is allowed, and then it’s a fight.
No striking, no fighting.
No striker, no fighter.[/quote]
Trust me, out of all people I want to agree but if someone grabs your arm in the street and bends it in a way it should not be bent, tears out your ligaments or breaks a bone, that’s as good as it’s gonna be recorded as a fight. If all they do is roll in the hay like lovers, then no, they can get fucked, that’s not a fight. That’s a tussle.
As for competition? Never will a Bjj or wrestling competitor be called a fighter… never.
The order goes
Boxing
Muay Thai
Other MA’s (that involve striking)
MMA
only.[/quote]
I just meant competition wise. But yes I agree.[/quote]
Ok, what if you are strikning the other guy WITH something?
So, would full contact stick fighting be practiced by fighters?
What about kendo?
Fencing? Does it matter if it is re-creationist fencing with heavier “blades” or International/Olympic type?
What about the type of “fighting” that organizations like the SCA do?
On a gut level I line up line for line with FighttinIrish, humble, and MWP on the things we have discussed. However I cannot shake the feeling of some cognitive dissonance in making the distinctions.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Cognitive dissonance is a sure sign that you have been doing some kind of activity that could definitively be called fighting.
Just wamted to make sure to be part of the more insane chapter of this monster thread-derail.
@Blaze
how’s it going, fighter? Happily munching punches?
The owner of the kickboxing place was really pushy on buying his club’s shorts so I bailed. Was a good place but fuck that noise.
For now I’m doing gpp (weights and running). When I go back home come this fall I’ll be doing judo and boxing. Cheaper, and less bullshit.
edit: I learned a lot in my short time there. I even got to beat up a 35 year old who was a complete newb. YAY ME.
double edit: There is actually a really good place nearby that does muay thai+grappling+etc but I am a broke student and can’t currently afford it. If I make some more cash I may start going but it’s only 2 months till I start doing judo and boxing again, for good.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I agree having to deal with getting hit, specifically punched in the face seems to be a hell of a lot more “real”. I would actually like Blaze and Rich’s take on this since they have backgrounds in striking that barred punching to the face. I think it is pretty damn easy to go down the “No True Scotsman” rabbit hole when trying to dismiss one type of conflict, but not another.
Defining what is “really” a fight is more about what contests we value. I tend to just be pedantic enough to say that if both people were really trying to win via hurting the other one it was real enough.
The other option is we only count real, honest, kill the bastard, combat.
Regards,
Robert A
[/quote]
Being a shorter guy, I would get kicked or knee to the face as opposed to punched or elbowed, so that may change things somewhat, as opposed to someone who is tall enough that it wasn’t that big of an issue.
That being said, I never had any issues being punched in the face but yes it does feel more “real”. The only “issue” I ever had with it [punches to face] was due to a flinch that I developed in my early teens when I took a soccer ball to the [open] eye that I had not seen coming.
In Kyokushin: being 2 inches from the guy as you both try to cave in each other’s chest, ribs and legs, I’d have to say it’s a little silly. I remember when I had been doing boxing for a little while in one city, and went back to visit my family and dropped by at my kyokushin dojo. I had one of the black belts I was sparring with mention how weird my guard was. When I changed it back to the kyokushin one: front completely open, sides protected, I felt very exposed to frontal punches.
In any case, anything connecting with your head/face is definitely gonna leave more of an impression than other parts of your body, except maybe the groin.