Hey guys,
After these posts showing some of the average Broz gym guys doing some insane olympic squat numbers I decided to start doing oly squats in the program. I was surprised by the huge discrepancy in numbers.
Best powerlifting raw wide stance squat: 500
Oly High Bar ATG Squat: 295x4
Have you guys noticed this difference in your own training? i imagine due to weak quads and stronger hips and glutes, I have this issue. i figure I found a weak point though, so might as well work on it.
My game plan is to do edt training with oly squats 3 sets, start off w/ doubles and every week add a rep, when I get to 3x3 then add 10lbs, start with 295. I am also going to do sets of 5 on fridays, starting with 3 sets and then adding a set every week, when i get to 5 sets add 10lbs. So i do not lose hip strength, I'll do regular wide stance squat once a week every 3rd week. Anyhow, let me know what your experiences are with this stuff.
Well, i am not good enough to judge if technique may be more important in oly highbar,
but biomechanically its no wonder that a2g (greater ROM) and highbar (less stable than low bar) translate in a more difficult lift.
The reason powerlifters squat like they do is because it’s how they can move the largest amount of weight.
Olympic guys squat like they do because it’s closer to the catch.
If you had never done them before, it shouldn’t surprise you that the numbers are quite different, simply because you’ve never done them. that and the fact that it sounds like you are now going deeper.
Just be careful when going atg to keep your back arched even in the bottom. A lot of people lack the hip mobility to do this or just don’t think about it.
I would be willing to bet the main difference in your “oly high bar squat” vs “power squat” is your footplacement, bar placement, and depth. Obviously you are stating that you go lower on your “oly squat” when you state ATG (ass to grass). That also takes care of your foot placement. Notice a lot of the big APF squatters widen their stance and point their toes out. They don’t hit quite as low of squats as a lot of the USAPL lifters who have a more narrow stance. Finally, it is simple physics that you should be able to move more weight with the bar placed lower on your back.
For the majority of lifters who can get comfortable lifting low bar they move a lot more weight. You are decreasing the distance between your lower back and the bar. In physics you would call it decreasing the length of the force arm. This equates to less strain being put on your lower back. Think of pushing a door open. The further you push from the hinges it takes much less force to open a door. If you move your hand closer to the hinges you have to push harder. With that bar so high on your back it takes less weight (=less force) to strain the lower back muscles. That is a simple explanation of your question in my opinion.
[quote]jsmiley07 wrote:
I would be willing to bet the main difference in your “oly high bar squat” vs “power squat” is your footplacement, bar placement, and depth. Obviously you are stating that you go lower on your “oly squat” when you state ATG (ass to grass). That also takes care of your foot placement. Notice a lot of the big APF squatters widen their stance and point their toes out. They don’t hit quite as low of squats as a lot of the USAPL lifters who have a more narrow stance. Finally, it is simple physics that you should be able to move more weight with the bar placed lower on your back.
For the majority of lifters who can get comfortable lifting low bar they move a lot more weight. You are decreasing the distance between your lower back and the bar. In physics you would call it decreasing the length of the force arm. This equates to less strain being put on your lower back. Think of pushing a door open. The further you push from the hinges it takes much less force to open a door. If you move your hand closer to the hinges you have to push harder. With that bar so high on your back it takes less weight (=less force) to strain the lower back muscles. That is a simple explanation of your question in my opinion. [/quote]
I hear this stated quite often regarding the low bar SQ, but the mechanics just don’t make sense to me. In the SQ the moment arm you are referring to is the distance from the barbell back to essentially the hip joint. The problem is that carrying the bar lower doesn’t actually get the bar any closer to the hips because it has to stay centered over the feet or you fall over. This distance is dictated by the length of the femur and width of the stance, not bar placement. I would argue that the low bar SQ actually puts more strain on the lower back because it necessitates a more horizontal back angle to keep the bar centered over the feet. Assuming everything else stays the same, the moment arm length is the same for a high bar or low bar SQ it’s just that you can maintain that moment arm length with a more upright torso with the high bar SQ.
For the OP, the difference is likely due to a number of factors including reliance on different muscle groups, difference in depth, and not being used to the new style.
I get what you are saying about the low bar putting a more horizontal back angle than the high bar but you can’t argue that putting the bar lower does not place the bar closer to the hips. Maybe it is only 2" but that can make a big difference. For myself I feel that those two inches outweigh any extra strain put on by a more horizontal than vertical back position. I agree with your last statement that “a number of factors including reliance on different muscle groups, difference in depth, and not being used to the new style it all could boil down to.” Maybe for the OP he is stronger in his glutes than quads and can utilize his glutes and hamstrings more on the low bar squat than the high bar. Either way I utilize both types of squat and always can low bar much more than high bar.
Main difference is knee break vs hip break; that means, you will initiate the movement at the knee, not the hip as you would in a powerlifting squat. high bar puts up stonger momentums if you lean forward, effectively “pushing you forward” if you go deep and lean in. this is due to the higher distance between joint and force attack point. concerning knee break: you will not keep your shins perpendicular to the floor, but it will enable you to keep a straighter back.
Thanks for the insights guys. I'll be sure to work on the mobility. I'll vary this style for awhile and report back if I see any sufficient increases in my regular wide squat or dead #s.
[quote]Oreillbc wrote:
Hey guys,
After these posts showing some of the average Broz gym guys doing some insane olympic squat numbers I decided to start doing oly squats in the program. I was surprised by the huge discrepancy in numbers.
Best powerlifting raw wide stance squat: 500
Oly High Bar ATG Squat: 295x4
Have you guys noticed this difference in your own training?[/quote]
HaHaHa.
Yeah, made the same change 6 months ago after stumbling on the video of Chakarov full squating 270 kg x 3 in no-no-no style. Kinda humbling, my squats dropped worse than yours. Its a totally different movement. That, and its a REAL squat not a half (aka power) squat. Think about it this way, go benchpress for a year in a powerack, only set the safety pins HALFWAY down to your chest. See if can’t “power bench” nearly double what you do now with a REAL bench.
The low bar position does give you more of a forward lean. In this manner you can captilize on using your hip extensors (hip to trunk angle is more acute), rather then your knee extensors.
[quote]Oreillbc wrote:
Hey guys,
After these posts showing some of the average Broz gym guys doing some insane olympic squat numbers I decided to start doing oly squats in the program. I was surprised by the huge discrepancy in numbers.
Best powerlifting raw wide stance squat: 500
Oly High Bar ATG Squat: 295x4
Have you guys noticed this difference in your own training?[/quote]
HaHaHa.
Yeah, made the same change 6 months ago after stumbling on the video of Chakarov full squating 270 kg x 3 in no-no-no style. Kinda humbling, my squats dropped worse than yours. Its a totally different movement. That, and its a REAL squat not a half (aka power) squat. Think about it this way, go benchpress for a year in a powerack, only set the safety pins HALFWAY down to your chest. See if can’t “power bench” nearly double what you do now with a REAL bench.
lb
wished i’d started out real squatting!
[/quote]
Yeah it definately is a humbling experience, my ego does not like it. I’m still going to power squat every few weeks in addition to oly squats to not lose any hip/glute strength. I’ll be sure to post how it has helped. I’ve actually switched to the 6 week russian squat cycle, you hear of it? It can be found on joeskopec.com, it worked once for my power squats and i figure with the lower weight used in the oly squats(heavy for quads yes, but feels light to the rest of the body ala lower back), it would be less cns intensive, and I could handle squatting 3x a week again.
[quote]VinceFTW wrote:
Could anyone please tell me what ATG is? And also the difference between powerlifting and olympic squats? Is it the foot stance?[/quote]
