Old Lab Test vs New Lab Test

Bigger Stronger Leaner Over 35 Lifter
1


Hey guys.

I’m sorry in advance to anyone who has seen these before, as I’m sure there are many of you who post on other TRT forums as well. But, I like to get many opinions, so here are the results from the first test.

It was done (12/19/07) after feeling constantly tired/rundown, low libido, trouble sleeping, no progression in the weight room etc. Tests cameback fine, with the exception of my Total T being in the low normal range and my Free T being below range.

EDIT: Sorry for the small image…here are the numbers:

Total T = 405ng/dl(320-864)
Free T = 1.4% (1.6-2.9)
SHBG = 42nmol/L (13-71)
Bio Test = 195.2 ng/dl (101-534)
Albumin Serum = 5.2g/dl (3.2-5.2)

2

And here are the results from my blood test I had done by my Endo (01/03/08):

These are without the Androgel
Total T = 548ng/dl (270-1080)…up some from first test
Free T = 0.93pg/ml (0.95-4.30)
Prolactin = 3.9 (>18)
FSH = 2.9 (1.6-12)
LH = 2.6 (1.3-7.5)

He said everthing looked normal besides the Free T so he put me on Androgel @ 2.5g daily.

My follow up isn’t until April, but I’ve got a physical with my GP Jan.25th, so I’m gonna get my blood work checked again to make sure the gel is doing what it’s suppose to.

I did have a couple questions about the gel though:

  1. It’s my second day on the gel and I notice a tightness/slight pain in my chest. Is there any relation? Did not experience this before hand.

  2. Will I become infertile on this amount?

  3. Should I be worried about testicular atrophy with this amount?

  4. What can I expect my Total T to go up to if it was ~550 ng/dl pre gel? Same ? for Free T.

  5. How long does noticable effects take to occur? Will I even notice any on this amount?

  6. As far as sides are concerned, what positive/negative ones should I expect to see?

Thanks a ton, and any additional info on the gel/trt anyone has is always appreciated.

3

bump…anyone?

4

Once again we have a doctor that doesn’t understand that testosterone and estradiol work in concert to determine how you feel. Insist that your GP have your E2 level checked in the new blood test.

With regards to your questions…

  1. Sorry, can’t help. I inject and I’ve never had those symptoms. Maybe some of the other gel guys will chime in.

  2. If the gel is working as it should, your natural T production will shut down and most likely all testicular function. However, it’s really not the same as being infertile in that if you also use HCG, your testicles will remain active. This will most likely be a tough sell to your doctor. Don’t let him/her brush it off. Be assertive.

Here is a study that talks about using HCG to maintain fertility:

http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/Reproductive_health/Endocrine_pathology.html

  1. If the gel is being absorbed well and delivering an effective dose (not always the case), then yes, your testicles SHOULD shut down and start to atrophy.

  2. I doubt that anyone can predict those answers because the response to the gel is highly individual. Personally, I try to maintain total T in the 800 - 1000 range and E2 in the 15 - 20 range. A T to E ratio of 40:1 rocks!

  3. No one can say for sure. You have to try it and see what happens. This isn’t mathematics, there are no hard and fast rules and everyone is different. The human body is incredibly complex and individual response is just that… individual. Never forget that nothing you put in your body reacts the same way in all people. Hell, even aspirin is deadly to some people. TRT is always an experiment; it’s not cut and dried.

  4. Positive - Feeling great! Ready to kick ass, take down names and fuck the shit out of every female in sight. You know, how you felt when you were 20.

Negatives - Increased T leads to increased E and the possible sides of increased E are gynomastia (bitch tits), loss of libido, depression, emotional disturbances. Some guys feel pain in their testicles from the atrophy process.

Time and time again we have seen that testosterone by itself is a bad protocol for TRT. It is, in fact, for very many guys a recipe for disaster. The current best results come from what I think of as the holy triumvirate: Testosterone/Aromatase Inhibitor/HCG.

Read the posts here by KSman, he’s the one who turned many of us on to the three pronged approach.

Read Dr. Crisler’s protocols and print them out and discuss them with your doctor. He if he/she isn’t on board with them, then get a new doctor or self-medicate.

Find them here:

Click on the link that says: TRT: A Recipe for Success

Bottom line - Educate yourself and take responsibility for your own well being. It’s your job to know what treatments are best and demand that you get them. If you just sit back and let the doctor run the show and then hope for success, you’ll deserve what you get.

Either way, I truly hope that it all works out well for you and that you have nothing but success!

5

You cannot simply add a small amount of testosterone to boost what you have as your body will reduce your own production to maintain where you are. To increase T levels, you need to take enough to replace your own production, then more to increase levels. This does mean HPTA shutdown and you will have shrinking testicles and a tight scrotum unless you do hCG injections.

What you are doing is nuts without having your serum E2 lab numbers. You also need to report age, height, weight, estimated %BF, fat patterns and weight if you are expecting insightful responses.

That small dose of transdermal T may make you feel worse than now as it will probably increase E2 and SHBG, lowering FT over time.

Optimal TRT/HRT is T, AI - arimidex/anastrozole (aromatase inhibitor to lower E2 level) and hCG self injections to maintain the testicles. T+AI+hCG

Get copies of your labs keep them.

Do not switch labs as the effects of TRT are confounded by changes from lab to lab.

6

Thanks for such a detailed response happydog and KSman, very informative.

[quote]KSman wrote:
You cannot simply add a small amount of testosterone to boost what you have as your body will reduce your own production to maintain where you are. To increase T levels, you need to take enough to replace your own production, then more to increase levels. This does mean HPTA shutdown and you will have shrinking testicles and a tight scrotum unless you do hCG injections.

What you are doing is nuts without having your serum E2 lab numbers. You also need to report age, height, weight, estimated %BF, fat patterns and weight if you are expecting insightful responses.[/quote]

Sorry about not posting these earlier…
Age: 22
Height: 5’4".5
Weight: 130lbs
Bodyfat: ~11%

When I asked my Endo about testing my Estrogen levels before I had the second test done he said I didn’t need to have them done because I didn’t have any female characteristics, ie: breasts, lack of facial hair, etc.

But I’ll definitely get them check this time, especially what I know now about Androgel’s effects on them.

I certainly hope not, but I have noticed my nipples are feeling a little sensitive today (3rd day) on the gel.

I’m going to call me doc tomorrow and see if he will prescribe me these. If not then I am looking elsewhere (ie…new doc)

Definitely

Again thank you both for posting, it helps me out a lot.

7

[quote]mr11percent wrote:
Thanks for such a detailed response happydog and KSman, very informative.

KSman wrote:
You cannot simply add a small amount of testosterone to boost what you have as your body will reduce your own production to maintain where you are. To increase T levels, you need to take enough to replace your own production, then more to increase levels. This does mean HPTA shutdown and you will have shrinking testicles and a tight scrotum unless you do hCG injections.

What you are doing is nuts without having your serum E2 lab numbers. You also need to report age, height, weight, estimated %BF, fat patterns and weight if you are expecting insightful responses.

Sorry about not posting these earlier…
Age: 22
Height: 5’4".5
Weight: 130lbs
Bodyfat: ~11%

When I asked my Endo about testing my Estrogen levels before I had the second test done he said I didn’t need to have them done because I didn’t have any female characteristics, ie: breasts, lack of facial hair, etc.

But I’ll definitely get them check this time, especially what I know now about Androgel’s effects on them.

KSman wrote: That small dose of transdermal T may make you feel worse than now as it will probably increase E2 and SHBG, lowering FT over time.

I certainly hope not, but I have noticed my nipples are feeling a little sensitive today (3rd day) on the gel.

KSman wrote: Optimal TRT/HRT is T, AI - arimidex/anastrozole (aromatase inhibitor to lower E2 level) and hCG self injections to maintain the testicles. T+AI+hCG

I’m going to call me doc tomorrow and see if he will prescribe me these. If not then I am looking elsewhere (ie…new doc)

KSman wrote: Get copies of your labs keep them.

Definitely

Again thank you both for posting, it helps me out a lot.[/quote]

You are quite lean and some of the T–>E conversion issues relative to fat mass will not be a driving issue.

The big problem with E2 will be effects on mood, energy and libido.

At your age, it it very important to maintain your testes for several reasons. hCG, 250iu SC (injected under the skin) EOD (every other day), works well and there is good research to support that dosing.

Getting the right doctor is the critical success factor. If you go shopping, some might consider that you do not need anything at all.

Note that long term and short term effects can be very different, all the more so with transdermal (TD) T. Short term effects can be very good, but transient. Be aware that TDs sometimes do not work well at all for some. If can be good but skin can get rashy. May work well at first, but the effects of the T on the skin may significantly stop absorption.

Guys who have thyroid problems are famous for collectively not been able to absorb TD T.

Do not make conclusions about how great anything is until 2 or 3 months have passed. Some have a sex drive for a month or so that is very very strong. If you get that, enjoy, but it does not last for a few reasons. You may need the understanding of a female partner as things change. If she can be understanding 3 times a day, that would be good too :wink:

Some will need to inject, which is not all bad, and can be done with very small insulin needles as an option as well. hCG must be injected. Injecting hCG and doing TD testosterone to avoid injecting is sort of insane. Injecting can be a hard thing to contemplate, but many have walked that road and it is not so bad.

Injectable T costs are trivial compared to TDs.

For those that exercise, sweat and shower a lot, transdermals are simply not going to work out. Those who do physical labor may also sweat off their TD dose.

Optimal results, as far as libido is concerned, seems to be with E2 in the lower 20s (0-53 pg/ml). Anastrozole can be use to control E2. With E2 changes, libido seems to be one of the fastest acting changes and something also best perceived. So libido, happily, seems to be the best barometer for how E2 changes are working. It also seems, no one has bothered to state otherwise, that when one libido is highest, one’s sense of well-being seems to also be best. Libido seems to be the best guide to ones TRT/libido.

E can kill everything. With T alone, one can have TT, FT, DHT above normal range, and feel like crap across many dimensions, and have fat pattern and other adverse signs. Keep T the same and reduce E2 and everything changes. E control can be the critical success factor. T alone can mean nothing. When E kills T effects, mental, energy and libido, androgenic effects can still be strong, more hair growth, faster hair growth, anabolic effects. The different effects are impacted differently by elevated E.

How has this condition evolved? What did you notice and what was lost. PM if you prefer.

8

[quote]mr11percent wrote:

I certainly hope not, but I have noticed my nipples are feeling a little sensitive today (3rd day) on the gel.

.[/quote]

Having spent months on Androgel here is my advice:

Do not under any cercumstances apply the gel to your nipples! Try your best to stay a few inches away too. Direct application is a fast way to sore nipples. If your nips are sore either from direct application or not you need your E2 measured. Make sure you tell your docs that your nips are sore.

Try not to apply the gel to areas which have the typical estrogenic fat. This is the love handles and the belly. Here you are going to convert the T to E. Why set yourself up.

Put the gel on directly after a hot shower for best absorbtion. Dry off well and put it on.

Expect acne where you apply it. The skin will react to the higher levels of Test.

After a few months using the gel I noticed my hands were not as sensative. I couldnt tell the difference between 1 adn 3 pages in a book. I forgot to use my gel for a weekend and notice on monday my sensation was a bit better.

Otherwise the guys have advised you well!

Chewman

9

[quote]Chewman wrote:
After a few months using the gel I noticed my hands were not as sensative. I couldnt tell the difference between 1 adn 3 pages in a book. I forgot to use my gel for a weekend and notice on monday my sensation was a bit better.
[/quote]

I think that effect is from the alcohol and not the T.

10

[quote]Chewman wrote:
Having spent months on Androgel here is my advice:

Do not under any cercumstances apply the gel to your nipples! Try your best to stay a few inches away too. Direct application is a fast way to sore nipples. If your nips are sore either from direct application or not you need your E2 measured. Make sure you tell your docs that your nips are sore.

Try not to apply the gel to areas which have the typical estrogenic fat. This is the love handles and the belly. Here you are going to convert the T to E. Why set yourself up.[/quote]

i only apply the gel to my upper arms and shoulders. it’s a small amount, only 2.5g, so i can get most on one.

i still havent noticed any morning wood or increased libido. should i be getting these if it’s working correctly?

i called my endo this morning and told the receptionist my nips were feeling sensitive and she said he would call me back…still waiting.

EDIT Receptionist just called and said the doc left a note saying what I am experiencing is normal and I should feel better within 3 weeks…

opinions?

11

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
Once again we have a doctor that doesn’t understand that testosterone and estradiol work in concert to determine how you feel. Insist that your GP have your E2 level checked in the new blood test.

With regards to your questions…

  1. Sorry, can’t help. I inject and I’ve never had those symptoms. Maybe some of the other gel guys will chime in.

  2. If the gel is working as it should, your natural T production will shut down and most likely all testicular function. However, it’s really not the same as being infertile in that if you also use HCG, your testicles will remain active. This will most likely be a tough sell to your doctor. Don’t let him/her brush it off. Be assertive.

Here is a study that talks about using HCG to maintain fertility:

http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/Reproductive_health/Endocrine_pathology.html

  1. If the gel is being absorbed well and delivering an effective dose (not always the case), then yes, your testicles SHOULD shut down and start to atrophy.

  2. I doubt that anyone can predict those answers because the response to the gel is highly individual. Personally, I try to maintain total T in the 800 - 1000 range and E2 in the 15 - 20 range. A T to E ratio of 40:1 rocks!

  3. No one can say for sure. You have to try it and see what happens. This isn’t mathematics, there are no hard and fast rules and everyone is different. The human body is incredibly complex and individual response is just that… individual. Never forget that nothing you put in your body reacts the same way in all people. Hell, even aspirin is deadly to some people. TRT is always an experiment; it’s not cut and dried.

  4. Positive - Feeling great! Ready to kick ass, take down names and fuck the shit out of every female in sight. You know, how you felt when you were 20.

Negatives - Increased T leads to increased E and the possible sides of increased E are gynomastia (bitch tits), loss of libido, depression, emotional disturbances. Some guys feel pain in their testicles from the atrophy process.

Time and time again we have seen that testosterone by itself is a bad protocol for TRT. It is, in fact, for very many guys a recipe for disaster. The current best results come from what I think of as the holy triumvirate: Testosterone/Aromatase Inhibitor/HCG.

Read the posts here by KSman, he’s the one who turned many of us on to the three pronged approach.

Read Dr. Crisler’s protocols and print them out and discuss them with your doctor. He if he/she isn’t on board with them, then get a new doctor or self-medicate.

Find them here:

Click on the link that says: TRT: A Recipe for Success

Bottom line - Educate yourself and take responsibility for your own well being. It’s your job to know what treatments are best and demand that you get them. If you just sit back and let the doctor run the show and then hope for success, you’ll deserve what you get.

Either way, I truly hope that it all works out well for you and that you have nothing but success![/quote]

To the OP: You just got handed one hell of a lot of great info. Act on it.

However, good luck finding a doctor who is not in the "Stone Ages’. In 4 years, I’ve NEVER met a doctor who would set me up with the ‘Holy Triumvirate’ as Happydog described. You will have to buy your stuff from overseas sources and pay by Western Union.

400 mg/week Cyp (2 doses of 200 mg)
250 IU HCG EOD
Arimidex/Ana (a few drops daily of Ana or 1 mg/week Arim)

All the Best!

12

Opinion - he’s a dickhead that should have his balls cut off and stuffed down his throat. Ask him if he’s ever heard of aromatase.

Not that I’m the least bit bitter about my own dealings with doctors.

13

[quote]mr11percent wrote:
Chewman wrote:
Having spent months on Androgel here is my advice:

Do not under any cercumstances apply the gel to your nipples! Try your best to stay a few inches away too. Direct application is a fast way to sore nipples. If your nips are sore either from direct application or not you need your E2 measured. Make sure you tell your docs that your nips are sore.

Try not to apply the gel to areas which have the typical estrogenic fat. This is the love handles and the belly. Here you are going to convert the T to E. Why set yourself up.

i only apply the gel to my upper arms and shoulders. it’s a small amount, only 2.5g, so i can get most on one.

i still havent noticed any morning wood or increased libido. should i be getting these if it’s working correctly?

i called my endo this morning and told the receptionist my nips were feeling sensitive and she said he would call me back…still waiting.

EDIT Receptionist just called and said the doc left a note saying what I am experiencing is normal and I should feel better within 3 weeks…

opinions?[/quote]

Your journey into Hell has begun. I’ve was on that ‘freight train’ for a long time.

Jump off and just buy your own shit. About 95% or more of the docs in this field suck donkey balls. An Endo? Jeez, most make janitors look brilliant… At least the janitor know what the fuck he’s doing.

You’re being reamed.

14

[quote]mr11percent wrote:

i called my endo this morning and told the receptionist my nips were feeling sensitive and she said he would call me back…still waiting.

opinions?[/quote]

Maybe she really does not want to feel your nipples.

When your TRT works right, you will want to feel her’s.

15

[quote]KSman wrote:
Chewman wrote:
After a few months using the gel I noticed my hands were not as sensative. I couldnt tell the difference between 1 adn 3 pages in a book. I forgot to use my gel for a weekend and notice on monday my sensation was a bit better.

I think that effect is from the alcohol and not the T.[/quote]

I agree with KSman, it’s the ethanol base of the Androgel that’s probably caused my decreased sensation in my hands. I tried to apply the gel with gloves on but I couldnt tell if I was getting an even coating.

Chewman

16

[quote]Chewman wrote:
Chewman wrote:
I agree with KSman, it’s the ethanol base of the Androgel that’s probably caused my decreased sensation in my hands. I tried to apply the gel with gloves on but I couldnt tell if I was getting an even coating.

Chewman

[/quote]
Ya I’ve been squeezing all the contents of the packet out evenly on both shoulders and then i flip the packet over and rub it in with the back of it. My hands have yet to touch the gel.

It looks like I am just going to ride things out until Jan.25 when I go to see my GP. I’ll get my Total and Free T tested again, along with estrogen and DHT levels. Anything else you guys would ask to be tested if you were/are on the gel?

I know they say to give it a month before you see real progress/results, so based on that, will getting blood work done only 15 days on the gel be pointless? I kind of want to know what my estrogen and DHT levels are because I did not get them checked last time.

17

I was on the Gel and never absorbed it from the start. I also broke outfrom it so I am on T-CYP 200mg EOW which is not good but a good start. I get the test below done.

·Total Testosterone
·Bioavailable Testosterone
·Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is still unavailable)
·Estradiol (specify the Extraction Method, or �??sensitive�?? assay for males)
·DHT (especially if patient is using a transdermal delivery system)
·FSH (3rd Generation�??ultrasensitive assay this time)
·CBC
·Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
·Lipid Profile
·PSA (for more senior patients)

18

[quote]mr11percent wrote:

I know they say to give it a month before you see real progress/results, so based on that, will getting blood work done only 15 days on the gel be pointless? I kind of want to know what my estrogen and DHT levels are because I did not get them checked last time.

[/quote]

There are different things going on.

In one month, the BW will show where your levels and indicate if you need more T or are not absorbing well and need to inject. The numbers will not be final as your E2 and SHBG levels are shifting which affect TT and FT.

Injections aways work from an absorption perspective and first BW after injections start can be 2 or 3 months later.

E2 & SHBGlevels will probably be contining to climb at this point.

Results are a totally different thing. T will dock in receptors, these will be pulled into the cells and how genes are expressed with change. The cells then change how they work and what they do. The aggregate change of cells becomes tissue changes. How tissues react as a group changes. This also happens in the brain. Brain activity changes. Thought and personality changes occur, but these take time as “habits of thought” can take 2 or 3 months to be largely complete. Libido is all in your head and a mental activity. Libido can be fast acting and changes can be in the order of a couple of weeks.

As changes to T evolve, changes from increased E2 can be blocking the effects of T. A shifting balance. In some cases, starting TRT can lead to a huge burst of libido for a month or so that declines as the E2 and SHBG increases. In some cases, much of what has been gained can be lost over a period of 2 to 3 months if E is elevated.

Some of the effects of T are transient and the transient component is just that.