Oil, Bitch!

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Heliotrope wrote:

Even if your optimistic hopes of true production versus expected are correct it still won’t be enough to make the U.S. independent of the global market much less an exporter large enough to have any real impact on prices.

The whole independence argument is really a foolish one. We should not be looking for independence, or truely worried about that independence. We are part of a global market.

But what is going right now has nothing to do with what markets should be doing. When Brazil finds large quantities of oil, that should be good news. But then Brazil actually thinks they should join OPEC. Bad news. Instead of them competing in the market, they may join the cartel and help manipulate prices.

I am not against drilling but thinking that increased tapping of Americas minuscule reserves is an meaningful issue is wishful thinking. Oil is a global market and price is effected by global supply and demand and the speculations and schemes of Opec and commodity traders. Adding a few more taps to our tiny(in comparison to the worlds total reserves)reserves won’t be enough to influence such a gigantic market that is increasing its worldwide demand each day.

No, thats the way the market works. If you do not tap those reserves, then prices will keep climbing. You are actually saying increasing the supply will not affect supply and demand.

Plus there is more then just Alaska. There is Bakken, which has 4 billion barrels of extractable oil at current technology. (Previous technology was practically zero.) As technology improves it is believed that number could go up to 100 billion barrels. They know its there, just not at current technolgy.

Then the oil find in the Gulf of Mexico. Potentially 15 billion barrels of oil and natural gas liquids. (They didn’t divide these numbers.) Still 2 years before it starts flowing, last I knew, and 5 before full production. But another tap flowing.

OPEC manipulates the markets by changes as low as 500k bbl of daily production. We replace that, and their power is weakened.

It really is a non issue. If we really need it we will tap it. The longer we wait the more valuable it will be when we finally do tap it. It’s money in the bank collecting probably the best interest rates in the history of commodity markets.

As the first nation to effectively exploit a gigantic domestic reserve we already sold the bulk of our non renewable resource in a market of low demand and high supply. Why should be in a rush to sell off the little we still have?

After all oil is still a measly four dollars a gallon. Too many of my countrymen lack perspective. We are still far away from “high” oil prices.

The economy does run on energy. I agree that the prices are not as bad as many people think, but I still believe they should be lower. We should be in a era of much lower energy prices. But the problem is not that we are running out of oil. The problem is not that we are using to much energy.

The problem is politics. It is the reason we do not have more Nu-Q-Ler energy plants built. It is the reason why we have so much trouble drilling anywhere. It is the reason OPEC has so much power.

If we actually had more Nu-Q-Ler plants running in this county, electricity would be a lot cheaper. Electric heat would have probably replaced gas and heating oil for heating homes.

The Tesla Roadster is proof that an electric car is viable. Yet our electric grid will not be able to handle it if suddenly half of the population had an electric car.

Again we currently produce 33% of our oil. We get 50% from Canada. That’s 83%. Throw in Mexico, and that jumps to something like 88%. (If my math is correct.) Just from North America. Brazil is currently #10 on the list, but that could change with their recent 33 billion bbl finds.

Is this enough? How about when oil shale really begins to take off? An estimated equivalent of 1.2 - 1.6 trillion bbl in an area covering portions of 3 states. Although they estimate we will only be able to recover 800 billion bbl. (That’s 109 years worth.)

Shell has recently tested a process that keeps the shale in the ground, and is capable of creating the oil, and simply pumping it out. The most interesting thing is while it is energy intensive, (producing 3.5 times as much energy used.) It also produces methane that can be used as the source of all the energy used in the process.

There is plenty of oil.[/quote]

I don’t think anybody is espousing the idea that drill in Alaska or the ND/Montana border is going to make us suddenly engergy independent. But rather it is part of a logical step towards that fact. It is part of the solution until such time as alternatives gain a foot hold and less oil will be required as a general rule. Energy independence needs to be strived for. The idea that we should continue to do business with people who would rather see us dead, indefinitely, is an asinine one in my opinion. Every drop of oil we don’t have to get from abroad is a good thing.

As long as we are still using oil we will never be “energy independent.” It doesn’t really matter in the end which country or countries we buy our oil from, or if we use only domestically extracted oil. Why not? because the entire GLOBAL oil supply is what affects the price. Each country (or oil company) sets the price in line with what the world market as a whole is doing; no one is going to sell it for less than they can get for it.

So you have to think of the global oil supply as one big pool. Now, if that supply can be increased significantly by a big find in Alaska or Canada, for example, that will weaken the strength that OPEC has on controlling global oil prices. It won’t ELIMINATE it, but it will weaken it, as the OPEC countries will then control a smaller percentage of the global oil supply.

With all of this in mind, however, it is pure fantasy to think that we will be able to do without oil anytime in the foreseeable future. Regardless of how well-intentioned individuals are, or oil/energy companies are, or governments are, or how much money governments throw at the problem, there IS NO quick and feasible solution on the horizon in the near term.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look for one, but it means that it is pure lunacy to think that we ought to currently stop trying to look for or extract new sources of oil and just “try to find something else” instead, because that “something else” ain’t gonna’ be here anytime soon. And if we don’t gain a little more control and stability over the oil supply in the short to medium term, we will very possibly be completely economically fucked.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
[i]Hillary Clinton and John McCain are both pushing a ``gas-tax holiday’’ to give consumers an 18.4- cent-a-gallon price break. Clinton says the plan will take excess profits from oil companies. McCain says it will help families buy school supplies.

Economists have a different take: They say the oil companies may end up the biggest beneficiaries, while the aid to families wouldn’t be enough to buy a $35 backpack.

The trouble with the plan, they say, is that oil prices are rising because of low supplies, and companies will continue to charge the average $3.60 a gallon and just pocket the money that would have gone to federal taxes.

That's $10 billion, and it's going into the pockets of oil refiners,'' said Leonard Burman of the Tax Policy Center in Washington. The last time I checked, they didn’t need it.‘’ [/i]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aawQyV4.JhNY&refer=us

Eliminating the gas tax would directly lower the price at the pump. They would not pocket the money because the gas station next store would not. Stupid quote.

Tell that to the four Nobel prize winners who are denouncing the plan. Tell them how “stupid” they are.

More than 200 economists, including four Nobel prize winners, signed a letter rejecting proposals by presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and John McCain to offer a summertime gas-tax holiday.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aTzCmqCNyLho&refer=home[/quote]

I don’t think it is a great plan but the quote in your original quote is wildly incorrect.

Let me give you some reality, and this is from Bloomberg: “Brazil may be pumping ‘several million’ barrels of crude daily by 2020, vaulting the nation into the ranks of the world’s seven biggest producers.” Several million barrels of crude daily by 2020. They’re talking about pumping oil 12 years from now, folks.

How can that be if we’re running out? That stupid question that Bush got about we’re reaching our peak, asinine. Absolute BS, undiluted, pure stinky BS!

They’re pumping billions of dollars into developing the Caspian Sea for oil 20 years from now. We are not running out. Do we have the courage to go get it, or are we gonna sacrifice freedom and manageable prices for the agenda of the far-left environmentalist wackos who have willing accomplices in the United States Congress in the name of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Chuck Schumer, and every damn one of them?

I am sorry to yell, but I watched this this morning, and there is such an absence of common sense here. You don’t want to drill, fine. You don’t want to refine, okay. You don’t want nuclear, okay, good. You want to wait for wind and solar and you’re willing to wait for it, fine and dandy. You willing to put your money where your mouth is, you’re going to be doing that at the pump.

If you want to wait for wind, if you want to wait for any alternative, if you want to wait for nuclear, you go right ahead, you’re paying for it every time you drive up to the pump. Wake up, people!"
— Rush Limbaugh

The unspoken truth behind those who want us to stop using oil asap, of course, is that they are extreme leftist tree-hugger socialists who DO want everyone to be going around on bicycles, and they DO want to knock our economic standing down a few notches (because they think we’re “too rich/extravagent” and they think we deserve it), and they DO want to kick corporations in the balls (because, of course, corporations are “evil”), thereby furthering the kicking-in-the-balls of the whole economy.

Those on the far left envision that kind of “utopia” and WANT a drastic change in our lifestyle and level of economic prosperity. You know: from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. And no more.

So underneath the surface, that’s who your arguing against when you argue against most of the people who think we shouldn’t even bother extracting more oil in places where we’re not yet doing so.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Let me give you some reality, and this is from Bloomberg: “Brazil may be pumping ‘several million’ barrels of crude daily by 2020, vaulting the nation into the ranks of the world’s seven biggest producers.” Several million barrels of crude daily by 2020. They’re talking about pumping oil 12 years from now, folks. How can that be if we’re running out? That stupid question that Bush got about we’re reaching our peak, asinine. Absolute BS, undiluted, pure stinky BS!

They’re pumping billions of dollars into developing the Caspian Sea for oil 20 years from now. We are not running out. Do we have the courage to go get it, or are we gonna sacrifice freedom and manageable prices for the agenda of the far-left environmentalist wackos who have willing accomplices in the United States Congress in the name of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Chuck Schumer, and every damn one of them? I am sorry to yell, but I watched this this morning, and there is such an absence of common sense here. You don’t want to drill, fine. You don’t want to refine, okay. You don’t want nuclear, okay, good. You want to wait for wind and solar and you’re willing to wait for it, fine and dandy. You willing to put your money where your mouth is, you’re going to be doing that at the pump. If you want to wait for wind, if you want to wait for any alternative, if you want to wait for nuclear, you go right ahead, you’re paying for it every time you drive up to the pump. Wake up, people!"
— Rush Limbaugh

[/quote]

[quote]Damici wrote:
The unspoken truth behind those who want us to stop using oil asap, of course, is that they are extreme leftist tree-hugger socialists who DO want everyone to be going around on bicycles, and they DO want to knock our economic standing down a few notches (because they think we’re “too rich/extravagent” and they think we deserve it), and they DO want to kick corporations in the balls (because, of course, corporations are “evil”), thereby furthering the kicking-in-the-balls of the whole economy.

Those on the far left envision that kind of “utopia” and WANT a drastic change in our lifestyle and level of economic prosperity. You know: from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. And no more.

So underneath the surface, that’s who your arguing against when you argue against most of the people who think we shouldn’t even bother extracting more oil in places where we’re not yet doing so.
[/quote]

This is very true.

Maybe we should hold onto our un-tapped oil reserves and wait 10 or so years for all these other countries to run out. Then they’re screwed and then we start banking like saudi arabia!

  • Adam

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Damici wrote:
The unspoken truth behind those who want us to stop using oil asap, of course, is that they are extreme leftist tree-hugger socialists who DO want everyone to be going around on bicycles, and they DO want to knock our economic standing down a few notches (because they think we’re “too rich/extravagent” and they think we deserve it), and they DO want to kick corporations in the balls (because, of course, corporations are “evil”), thereby furthering the kicking-in-the-balls of the whole economy.

Those on the far left envision that kind of “utopia” and WANT a drastic change in our lifestyle and level of economic prosperity. You know: from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. And no more.

So underneath the surface, that’s who your arguing against when you argue against most of the people who think we shouldn’t even bother extracting more oil in places where we’re not yet doing so.

This is very true.[/quote]

Word up…

[quote]pat wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why we’re trying to lower the price of gas?! We live in the most energy profligate country on earth, which indirectly leads to a myriad of other problems (pollution, factory farming, minimal transportation infrastructure, foreign entanglements, etc.). The vast majority of oil experts, from what I’ve read, will tell you that the price of oil is only going to go up, owing to the depletion of the most accessible stocks, and, more importantly, skyrocketing demand from China, India and the rest of the developing world. Why would we stymie market innovation that would take us beyond fossil fuels in order to put a couple hundred more bucks in everyone’s pocket every year? And a gas tax holiday, with the federal budget in the shape it’s in? Moronic.

Well, let see. It stifles industry and causes inflation. There are two good ones right there.

Second, the goal is to stop doing business with people who’d rather see us dead in as much as simple economics.[/quote]

If you want “to stop doing business with people who’d rather see us dead” why should the government give us a subsidy, b/c that what a gas tax holiday is, to buy their products?
Let’s face reality we are not the only consumer out there anymore. The rest of the worlld is growing and they need oil, food, copper, steel etc… to do so.

The prices are obviously going to go up. Maybe we should stop bitching about gas prices which are very low here compared to Europe and accept we live in a global economy and adapt.

[quote]DB297 wrote:
pat wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why we’re trying to lower the price of gas?! We live in the most energy profligate country on earth, which indirectly leads to a myriad of other problems (pollution, factory farming, minimal transportation infrastructure, foreign entanglements, etc.). The vast majority of oil experts, from what I’ve read, will tell you that the price of oil is only going to go up, owing to the depletion of the most accessible stocks, and, more importantly, skyrocketing demand from China, India and the rest of the developing world. Why would we stymie market innovation that would take us beyond fossil fuels in order to put a couple hundred more bucks in everyone’s pocket every year? And a gas tax holiday, with the federal budget in the shape it’s in? Moronic.

Well, let see. It stifles industry and causes inflation. There are two good ones right there.

Second, the goal is to stop doing business with people who’d rather see us dead in as much as simple economics.

If you want “to stop doing business with people who’d rather see us dead” why should the government give us a subsidy, b/c that what a gas tax holiday is, to buy their products?
Let’s face reality we are not the only consumer out there anymore. The rest of the worlld is growing and they need oil, food, copper, steel etc… to do so. The prices are obviously going to go up. Maybe we should stop bitching about gas prices which are very low here compared to Europe and accept we live in a global economy and adapt. [/quote]

Part of adapting is drilling our own oil.

[quote]adamhum wrote:
Maybe we should hold onto our un-tapped oil reserves and wait 10 or so years for all these other countries to run out. Then they’re screwed and then we start banking like saudi arabia!

  • Adam[/quote]

I have actually been told this as a conspiracy theory. That we are “taking advantage” of the Mid-East by using up all their oil, and holding on to ours until they run out.

Now let me repeat myself. The Earth has only pumped 18% of the recoverable oil since we started pumping oil. That means we still have 82% of that oil left that is recoverable. And as our technology improves that number goes up.

This number does not include heavy oil, oil sands, or oil shale. which may triple that number.

Then it does not take into account the fact that we can make it out of methane, which not only has plentiful sources, but we can actually make the stuff.

And every year technology pushes us in the direction of making this stuff easier and cheaper.

In a similar vein, anyone know about the diamond market? Diamonds are expensive only because the market is very tightly controlled. They could flood the market with diamonds, but do not to keep prices high.

And now we can make diamonds in a lab. Not only that, they are actually superior to mined diamonds. They are so superior that it is actually the way to tell if a diamond is natural or man made.

They can make an diamond worth and equivalent $10,000 diamond for $5. This has scared the diamond brokers who want some sort of legislation put into place (last I knew) forcing people to reveal the natural or man made origin of diamonds thinking people would only want natural.

We may have passed the point (especially at current prices) with oil.

This oil problem isn’t financial, this isn’t supply and demand, it’s politics pure and simple.

I agree we should drill our own oil. We should also drill more nat gas which is a very feasible alternative to oil and very abundant here in the US.
My point is that we need to get used to higher commodity prices due to worldwide demand that is only going to increase and drive prices higher. Not to mention the weak dollar makes the situation worse.

I don’t see the avg American or politican willing to accept the fact that for lack of a better term “the world is flat.” We love free market capatilism domesticly but complain now that the world is headed in that direction and frankly doing better than us for the time being.
This is simple supply and demand from Econ 101 working the way we all knew it would.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
adamhum wrote:
Maybe we should hold onto our un-tapped oil reserves and wait 10 or so years for all these other countries to run out. Then they’re screwed and then we start banking like saudi arabia!

  • Adam

I have actually been told this as a conspiracy theory. That we are “taking advantage” of the Mid-East by using up all their oil, and holding on to ours until they run out.

Now let me repeat myself. The Earth has only pumped 18% of the recoverable oil since we started pumping oil. That means we still have 82% of that oil left that is recoverable. And as our technology improves that number goes up.

This number does not include heavy oil, oil sands, or oil shale. which may triple that number.

Then it does not take into account the fact that we can make it out of methane, which not only has plentiful sources, but we can actually make the stuff.

And every year technology pushes us in the direction of making this stuff easier and cheaper.

[b]In a similar vein, anyone know about the diamond market? Diamonds are expensive only because the market is very tightly controlled. They could flood the market with diamonds, but do not to keep prices high.

And now we can make diamonds in a lab. Not only that, they are actually superior to mined diamonds. They are so superior that it is actually the way to tell if a diamond is natural or man made.

They can make an diamond worth and equivalent $10,000 diamond for $5. This has scared the diamond brokers who want some sort of legislation put into place (last I knew) forcing people to reveal the natural or man made origin of diamonds thinking people would only want natural.[/b]

We may have passed the point (especially at current prices) with oil.

This oil problem isn’t financial, this isn’t supply and demand, it’s politics pure and simple. [/quote]

I understand your point, but I think you’re exaggerating the diamond market just a tad.

If anybody could sell diamonds for $10k with 99.95% margins, I think we’d be swimming in diamonds. They can make lab diamonds, but they’re mostly industrial-use diamonds. They can make jewelry diamonds too, but it costs a lot more than $5.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:

I understand your point, but I think you’re exaggerating the diamond market just a tad.

If anybody could sell diamonds for $10k with 99.95% margins, I think we’d be swimming in diamonds. They can make lab diamonds, but they’re mostly industrial-use diamonds. They can make jewelry diamonds too, but it costs a lot more than $5.[/quote]

Oops. I could swear it was $5. Looking online, it looks like it was actually under $100 to produce $10-15K equivalent diamonds.

Although this article is from 2003.

And no they are not selling those diamonds for that price. It is actually somewhere around 30% up to something like 80% less then natural.

An MSN article mentions, “For example, this 1.36-carat vivid yellow natural diamond sells at IceStore.com for more than $22,000. But a similar, cultured diamond from Gemesis would cost closer to $6,800, and Hellier notes it would have more intense color saturation.”

Not sure of the date of this article, but it mentions 2005 as a future date.

Apparently some industry analysts are predicting oil to reach $200/barrel or higher. Makes me quite happy that in 5 days or so I’ll be moving to a house that’s close enough to work and school that I probably won’t have to drive anywhere for at least 7 months.

[quote]Wimpy wrote:

Apparently some industry analysts are predicting oil to reach $200/barrel or higher. Makes me quite happy that in 5 days or so I’ll be moving to a house that’s close enough to work and school that I probably won’t have to drive anywhere for at least 7 months. [/quote]

Yes, and some are predicting $50.

I have read that everything above $70 is (or was) a result of speculators, not the market.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Wimpy wrote:

Apparently some industry analysts are predicting oil to reach $200/barrel or higher. Makes me quite happy that in 5 days or so I’ll be moving to a house that’s close enough to work and school that I probably won’t have to drive anywhere for at least 7 months.

Yes, and some are predicting $50.

I have read that everything above $70 is (or was) a result of speculators, not the market.[/quote]

Well considering I have little if any power whatsoever in controlling the price of oil why it’s increasing is irrelevant to me. It is what it is and it looks like it’s going to be increasing in price for the time being.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Yes, and some are predicting $50.[/quote]

Well…they’re dumb.

The era of cheap oil is over. Get over it!

[quote]lixy wrote:
The Mage wrote:
Yes, and some are predicting $50.

Well…they’re dumb.

The era of cheap oil is over. Get over it![/quote]

The era of cheap oil is over because of environmentalist whackos. They place the well-being of snails and caribou over that of human beings. “Oh, we must protect the earth!!”, they shreik, but the needs of Man always come in at the bottom.

Did you know that ANWAR is about the size of Rhode Island but the drilling area would have been about the size of a shopping mall? But those poor caribou!!!

85% of our continental shelf is off-limits — no exploration, no drilling.

I know the world hates America, and so they infected our people with the worship of a new God, Mother Earth. What better way to begin the Anti-Industrial Revolution than by cutting off the lifeblood of America?

BTW: Lixy, every line and every thought you have on these subjects was thought up long ago by evil men who want to destroy humanity, beginning with the USA. Read some Ayn Rand to be cured.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Well…they’re dumb.

The era of cheap oil is over. Get over it![/quote]

And Real Estate will climb forever.

Oh, don’t forget those tulips.

There are some factors that will not last forever keeping the price of oil elevated right now.

It’s a bubble pure and simple.