NYPD's Finest?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]NDM wrote:
Some good points have been made. I hope no one thinks that I labeled everyone on this thread as a “cop hater”. I only labeled one person that.

Anyway, I don’t see the point of arguing about this anymore. I voiced my opinion. Some of you didn’t like it. Some of you agreed with me. That’s how life is. I’m not holding anything against anyone that had a different opinion than me, other than the OP because he insulted cops everywhere. That’s just not going to fly with me.

I’m sure this story won’t be in the news again, because the cops are going to be acquitted, and good news about the police doesn’t make headlines.

[/quote]

Dude, get a grip. I’ve had some of your boys threaten me here through PM over the years. Telling me to “watch my back” and “I better watch my mouth.” Class acts I tell ya. One has to wonder about their mental stability. If people can get that riled up about words then I sure as hell wouldnt trust those same men in places of authority.

At the same time I’ve had many people (in the forums, through PM’s and in person) say they agree with what I’ve said over the years. Obviously I’m not the only one that thinks that way.

But I know not all cops are bad and yeah some are pigs whether you like it or not. Just like there are pigs in the business world, medical world, fitness world, etc.

Keep your hatrid towards me though. Its cool. I dont think I’ll of you.

102

[quote]Shaved wrote:
NDM wrote:

good news about the police doesn’t make headlines.

This is pretty true. It is sad that the majority of the news we ever hear about law enforcement is bad.

If it bleeds it leads.

But this doesn’t mean we should ignore the bad news we hear.

[/quote]

I agree. We shouldn’t IGNORE it. But if we do hear something that could be negative, we shouldn’t call them pigs or assume they’re in the wrong. Questions should be asked instead of fingers being pointed.

103

[quote]PGA wrote:
NDM wrote:
Some good points have been made. I hope no one thinks that I labeled everyone on this thread as a “cop hater”. I only labeled one person that.

Anyway, I don’t see the point of arguing about this anymore. I voiced my opinion. Some of you didn’t like it. Some of you agreed with me. That’s how life is. I’m not holding anything against anyone that had a different opinion than me, other than the OP because he insulted cops everywhere. That’s just not going to fly with me.

I’m sure this story won’t be in the news again, because the cops are going to be acquitted, and good news about the police doesn’t make headlines.

Dude, get a grip. I’ve had some of your boys threaten me here through PM over the years. Telling me to “watch my back” and “I better watch my mouth.” Class acts I tell ya. One has to wonder about their mental stability. If people can get that riled up about words then I sure as hell wouldnt trust those same men in places of authority.

At the same time I’ve had many people (in the forums, through PM’s and in person) say they agree with what I’ve said over the years. Obviously I’m not the only one that thinks that way.

But I know not all cops are bad and yeah some are pigs whether you like it or not. Just like there are pigs in the business world, medical world, fitness world, etc.

Keep your hatrid towards me though. Its cool. I dont think I’ll of you.[/quote]

I don’t really have any boys here. I haven’t been here long enough to rally up a posse. If you are talking about cops telling you that shit over PM’s, well, I don’t know what to say. They’re human too. They weren’t in uniform while they said it either, though.

I’ve also had people contact me through PM’s telling me that they agree with what I said as well.

You can call a business man a pig, a doctor a pig, but it’s not the same as calling a cop a pig. And yes, I am aware that some cops are assholes, but let’s not call them pigs. Call them an asshole. Calling them a pig is like making a racial slur.

I wouldn’t say I hate you. I just think in the past you have said some pretty rude shit about cops, and I didn’t like you and thought I would give you a piece of my mind. Anyway, I’m done fighting with you.

104

[quote]PGA wrote:
NDM wrote:
Some good points have been made. I hope no one thinks that I labeled everyone on this thread as a “cop hater”. I only labeled one person that.

Anyway, I don’t see the point of arguing about this anymore. I voiced my opinion. Some of you didn’t like it. Some of you agreed with me. That’s how life is. I’m not holding anything against anyone that had a different opinion than me, other than the OP because he insulted cops everywhere. That’s just not going to fly with me.

I’m sure this story won’t be in the news again, because the cops are going to be acquitted, and good news about the police doesn’t make headlines.

Dude, get a grip. I’ve had some of your boys threaten me here through PM over the years. Telling me to “watch my back” and “I better watch my mouth.” Class acts I tell ya. One has to wonder about their mental stability. If people can get that riled up about words then I sure as hell wouldnt trust those same men in places of authority.

At the same time I’ve had many people (in the forums, through PM’s and in person) say they agree with what I’ve said over the years. Obviously I’m not the only one that thinks that way.

But I know not all cops are bad and yeah some are pigs whether you like it or not. Just like there are pigs in the business world, medical world, fitness world, etc.

Keep your hatrid towards me though. Its cool. I dont think I’ll of you.[/quote]

Any cop who would send private messages like that is exactly what the problem is.

105

[quote]NDM wrote:

“A person familiar with the case who knows the detectives? version of events said yesterday that it was Mr. Guzman who asked for his gun, and that the first undercover detective on foot clearly identified himself to the occupants of the car and, gun drawn, told them to get out. Instead, the person said, they roared toward him. That detective fired the first shot.”[/quote]

Please cite a source for this quote.

No such thing was mentioned in the police’s press conference, and if true, is one hell of a glaring omission in a report over nine minutes long wherein a good deal of dialogue from the police and suspects was disclosed.

Not to mention, the person being paraphrased is only identified as “a person familiar with the case who knows the detectives’ version of events”. What person? And how do they “know” what they know?

[quote]The undercover blew his cover and announced he was a cop. The driver then tried to run him over. You guys made a giant bullshit sandwich, and I think it’s time you took a bite.

Murder? MURDER? It was self defence! Keep screaming injustice. You’re a joke.[/quote]

106

[quote]PGA wrote:
NDM wrote:
My, uncles, friends, mothers, sisters, friends, blah blah blah. The spokesman during the confrence didnt mention they identified themselves.[/quote]

What’s up PGA? I’ve been absent the last couple of days and thought I would push your buttons a bit.

I believe I heard on the news this morning that the officer that moved in front of the vehicle had his badge visibly hanging around his neck.

From experience I can tell you that I’m almost certain these cops will not be charged with anything due to the fact that Bell used his car as a weapon and hit the officer.

The flip side of this is, I have very little doubt the cop placed himself in front of that car fully expecting to have to shoot. He didn’t want to let the bad guy get away and he was going to ensure that it didn’t happen.

The only reason Bell should have been shot in this scenario is if the cop had no escape. Obviously he escaped because he wasn’t fully run over and didn’t jump on the hood.

Real bad tactics but in the end it will be deemed justified. We’ll have to wait and see.

And from our other posts we have gone back and forth on, I don’t think you hate ALL cops, but I would definitely say you could have a successful career in Internal Affairs. : )

107

[quote]JD430 wrote:

You don’t have the facts either so stop pretending that you do. [/quote]

Uh, I have the facts as we know them so far. I have based everything I’ve written around them, nothing more.

Such as…?

Seems like a lot of people are falling back on that option after the police report was spoon-fed to them on this thread. Don’t worry, you’re not alone.

[quote]I can’t reconstruct this scene based on the little bit that has been leaked, and that is if you can trust what the press is printing.
[/quote]

Leaked? Press?

Maybe you didn’t notice but the [b]police went on TV and directly addressed the public,[/b] giving every known detail including officer and suspect dialogue during the incident.

This being the NYPD’s chance to put a positive spin on the case, I would think, wait, sorry, I would guess that something as crucial as noting that at least one officer identified himself before the fact would be hammered upon by the spokesman.

But he does not say this.

Not once.

Nor does he even imply that it took place, yet dialogue between the suspect and and unrelated third party was clearly heard across a parking lot and reported.

Maybe video will surface later that the officers were flashing badges the size of dinner plates and were wearing helmets with revolving red and blue lights mounted on top. If that happens, I’ll stop my speculation.

In any case, one has to wonder why such a basic, exonerating piece of information was omitted from the initial press briefing, especially if it surfaces later on.

Anyone care to venture a guess?

108

[quote]Digital Chainsaw wrote:
NDM wrote:

“A person familiar with the case who knows the detectives? version of events said yesterday that it was Mr. Guzman who asked for his gun, and that the first undercover detective on foot clearly identified himself to the occupants of the car and, gun drawn, told them to get out. Instead, the person said, they roared toward him. That detective fired the first shot.”

Please cite a source for this quote.

No such thing was mentioned in the police’s press conference, and if true, is one hell of a glaring omission in a report over nine minutes long wherein a good deal of dialogue from the police and suspects was disclosed.

Not to mention, the person being paraphrased is only identified as “a person familiar with the case who knows the detectives’ version of events”. What person? And how do they “know” what they know?

The undercover blew his cover and announced he was a cop. The driver then tried to run him over. You guys made a giant bullshit sandwich, and I think it’s time you took a bite.

Murder? MURDER? It was self defence! Keep screaming injustice. You’re a joke.

[/quote]

It was in today’s NY Times. I don’t know who the “familiar” person is. Whenever someone is providing evidence to support a cops actions, everyone is quick to dismiss the source, but anything said that portrays the cops’ actions in a negative light is taken as if Moses himself said it.

109

[quote]brand wrote:

I’ll give it a try:

  1. Not real sure on this one. Would having uniformed officers outside be advantageous? Perhaps. Perhaps the presence of uniformed officers would immediately bring the situation to a suitable close. Knowing what we know know after the fact (no handgun was present) that would have likely been the way it played out. The officers didn’t know that and were operating on the assumption that he was armed. In that case, perhaps the subject sees the marked units outside and things go bad inside the club as a result. [/quote]

Good point! I was drawing on the assumption that marked cruisers would have been parked out of sight of the entrance and that uniformed officers would remain concealed until the suspect had safely distanced himself from the building.

Which would have been out in the open, no building to duck back into, no where to run while surrounded.

[quote]Which leads to…

Allowing the subject to enter his vehicle. This could go either way. You can go with the school of thought that he should be contacted before reaching the vehicle to avoid potential weapons inside the car and use of the car as a weapon. [/quote]

This is where I have to disagree. There really is no “school of thought” to consider. Not allowing a suspect access to a vehicle is page one of just about any police procedure manual, largely because of the reasons you state below.

[quote]However, operating under the assumption that he was armed that would allow the subject easy access to the weapon on his person.

He could address the officers with his weapon, flee on foot afterwards, etc. This also greatly increases the chances of some bystander getting hurt. You could allow him to enter the vehicle where he is contained and his responses are limited. There are tactics specific to vehicle takedowns. Obviously it went bad and people got killed.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions when something like this happens. I simply don’t think they should be judged by the limited information the public has. Unless you were there you really can’t know exactly what happened and why.
[/quote]

Now this is damn impressive. A well-constructed, point-counter point post that does not come across as a over excited, cheerleading maniac on meth.

You are one sharp guy, brand. Hope to hear more from you in the future.

110

[quote]Shaved wrote:
If I were in this situation and I were leaving a club/bar in a shitty neighborhood and half a block away I was surrounded by a van and guys in regular clothes who by all accounts never addressed themselves as police, I would get the fuck out of dodge.

I certainly wouldn’t sit in my car and let them surround me, I would floor it just like he did. What the hell was he supposed to do? I highly doubt “kill his guy” was his thought as he floored it, the guy walked in front of his damn car in an attempt to block it and the driver panicked.

These poor sons a bitches had no clue these were cops, they probably thought they were going to get robbed. These cops made no attempt at identifying themselves.

These guys did not hit a cop, they hit one of many guys in regular clothes who were trying to surround his car in again, a bad neighborhood.[/quote]

I hope you carry more weight around here than I or the Professor do. No one seemed to want to acknowledge this when we wrote it.

111

how much weight does standard police procedure have in something like this ?

"Standing alongside Mr. Bloomberg, Mr. Kelly confirmed that it was against department policy to shoot at a moving vehicle if there is no other threat to police. Most accounts of the incident say the shooting broke out after a plainclothes police officer tried to stop a car containing the three men.

He also said police are trained not to fire repeatedly with their automatic pistols. Police are instructed to fire three shots, if needed, and then stop shooting and assess the effect of those rounds. Police have said that five officers discharged their weapons Saturday morning, firing a total of 50 shots. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/27/nyregion/28shootcnd.html?ref=nyregion

112

I think people misunderstand the citys support for police officers. Anyone that is familiar with the nypd knows that the department is notorious for abandoning their officers if things go sour. Acquited or not, its safe to say these officers careers are effectively over.

I think one poster mentioned that citizens dont really question police use of power? This couldnt be further from the truth. Every little thing police do is examined under a microscope these days. This can be both good and bad.

113

[quote]Digital Chainsaw wrote:
Shaved wrote:
If I were in this situation and I were leaving a club/bar in a shitty neighborhood and half a block away I was surrounded by a van and guys in regular clothes who by all accounts never addressed themselves as police, I would get the fuck out of dodge.

I certainly wouldn’t sit in my car and let them surround me, I would floor it just like he did. What the hell was he supposed to do? I highly doubt “kill his guy” was his thought as he floored it, the guy walked in front of his damn car in an attempt to block it and the driver panicked.

These poor sons a bitches had no clue these were cops, they probably thought they were going to get robbed. These cops made no attempt at identifying themselves.

These guys did not hit a cop, they hit one of many guys in regular clothes who were trying to surround his car in again, a bad neighborhood.

I hope you carry more weight around here than I or the Professor do. No one seemed to want to acknowledge this when we wrote it.
[/quote]

If the officers failed to verbally identify themselves as police, display badges, etc…that’s a big problem, no doubt about it.

114

Yea yea yea, he thought he was getting jacked. Whatever. The cop thought he was getting run over, which is actually what happened. The cops came out alive, and one guy didn’t. I’m sure none of you would give a shit if the cop was killed and the guys in the car got away.

115

[quote]NDM wrote:
Yea yea yea, he thought he was getting jacked. Whatever. [/quote]

Gee thanks for addressing the issue.

Does that honestly not make sense to you?

  1. Bad neighborhood
  2. Pitch dark (assumption)
  3. Stopped half a block away from the bar
  4. Start to be surounded by men

If that happened to me, I would try to drive away from the scene as fast as possible, and I would be riddled with bullets.

I just want you to address this seriously. Is it that hard to imagine that these men had no idea they were cops. Is it that hard to imagine that they thought they were in trouble and tried to get away?

116

[quote]Shaved wrote:
NDM wrote:
Yea yea yea, he thought he was getting jacked. Whatever.

Gee thanks for addressing the issue.

Does that honestly not make sense to you?

  1. Bad neighborhood
  2. Pitch dark (assumption)
  3. Stopped half a block away from the bar
  4. Start to be surounded by men

If that happened to me, I would try to drive away from the scene as fast as possible, and I would be riddled with bullets.

I just want you to address this seriously. Is it that hard to imagine that these men had no idea they were cops. Is it that hard to imagine that they thought they were in trouble and tried to get away?
[/quote]

Look man. I’ve addressed the issue several times, to several different people. I don’t see why I have to address everyone with the same issue personally. I could understand they were afraid and tried to run. That doesn’t make what the cops did wrong though. The cops life WAS in danger, and he reacted.

Why is this so hard to understand? This isn’t the best possible outcome, I agree, but the cops aren’t wrong for doing what they did. Sometimes things go bad and you can’t control it.

117

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
And from our other posts we have gone back and forth on, I don’t think you hate ALL cops, but I would definitely say you could have a successful career in Internal Affairs. : ) [/quote]

Believe me I have thought about it, seriously.

118

[quote]PGA wrote:
MaloVerde wrote:
And from our other posts we have gone back and forth on, I don’t think you hate ALL cops, but I would definitely say you could have a successful career in Internal Affairs. : )

Believe me I have thought about it, seriously.[/quote]

To be an IA guy you first have to be a regular cop. That’s to keep people like you out of IA. They want people that actually know something about policing. You being in IA would be like me giving you advice on your golf swing.

119

[quote]NDM wrote:
I’ve addressed the issue several times, to several different people. I don’t see why I have to address everyone with the same issue personally. I could understand they were afraid and tried to run. That doesn’t make what the cops did wrong though. The cops life WAS in danger, and he reacted.

Why is this so hard to understand? This isn’t the best possible outcome, I agree, but the cops aren’t wrong for doing what they did. Sometimes things go bad and you can’t control it. [/quote]

What you are saying, implicitly, is that citizens have no right to self defense or self-preservation. Yes, the officer DID do something wrong IF he threatened a man without identifying himself as an officer. You don’t get a free pass. You can’t fuck the whole thing up, get yourself into a life-threatening situation because people think you’re a regular Joe, and then open fire without so much as yelling “police.”

I don’t know what happened that night, so I am withholding judgment. I am only commenting on the specific situation you brought up in your post.

120

[quote]NDM wrote:

Look man. I’ve addressed the issue several times, to several different people. [/quote]